Super Graphic – Trying to work out if that’s what I want.

[hoffy]

Just recently I have borrowed a Toyo Monorail camera from Polyglot to try my hand at 4x5 for the first time. While I have only taken a few frames thus far, I am pretty sure that if I decide that LF is something that I want to pursue, I will try and look for something that is a bit more compact.

Anyhow, after some research, I have to admit that I am finding myself drawn to Press type cameras as opposed to field cameras. I have to admit that there is a bit of romance in owning a press camera, but I also do like the idea of a working rangefinder and the thought of possibly even hand holding shots once in a while. At this point in time, after the small bit of research that I have done thus far, I am leaning towards a Super Graphic, if I can find one.

I should also point out what I like to do, I am quite keen to try portrait’s with one (if I can ever find anyone willing to sit), as well as just general run of the mill out and about photography. Landscapes – maybe, but I tend to go with photography that has something man made in it. (looking at my Flickr account shows the kind of photos I like to take, if that helps - http://www.flickr.com/photos/ashhoff/ )

What I want to know is what exactly can a Super Graphic do, in the broader scheme of LF photography? I understand that they have more movements then the run of the mill Crown and Speed graphics, but they don’t fold up as much as a dedicated view camera. How is this going to affect what I want to do, considering that I have been photographing for the last 20 years without movements.

Also, if I decide that yes, this is the camera for me, what price range would you be looking at (in $US would be fine – I know that anything that I buy O/S will need to have a reasonable amount of shipping factored in). I have located one locally at a second hand dealer, which I am going to look at during my lunch break, but I am concerned as the lens is not the original (Rodenstock 127, F4.7, which I believe was a Polaroid lens).

Cheers

[Paul Ewins]

The rangefinder mechanism on the Super Graphics could be an issue. It involves a piece of spring steel which gets folded over when the camera is closed. The one in mine had developed a permanent crease after fifty years and wouldn't work. I replaced it with one from a top RF crown graphic and it now sort of works. The cams are generic, unlike Linhof ones which are ground for an individual lens, but they still aren't common. The Super Graphic lens boards are slightly different to ordinary Speed Graphic boards and while the speed boards will fit they are loose. Needless to say the correct boards are hard to find.

[hoffy]

OK, thanks for your reply. How different are the movements on the Super compared to a Speed/Crown?

[welly]

Just a thought. I recently purchased a Toyo 45AX, a 'technical field camera'. You can see its press camera heritage as there are many similarities between the Toyo and cameras such as the Super/Speed/Crown Graphic. While it doesn't come with a range finder (and I suspect it probably wouldn't work with one), it is hand-holdable (although not sure I'd want to do that all day) and it is far more flexible than a traditional press camera. I wonder if you might start to find the Graphic range of cameras limiting. Anyway, it might be worth a look if you're interested in that kind of camera. The Linhof (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?96626-FS-LINHOF-Technika-III-Version-5-Technical-Field-Camera-Super-nice!) that sold today/yesterday on this forum might have been perfect for what you were looking for and went for a great price ($450).

[wombat2go]

Good Morning Hoffy,
Search engines are your friends

http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/graphic-models.html

I have a Speed Graphic which has a focal plane rear curtain shutter along with coupling to a lens shutter.
I just put a thread on PentaxForums.com about adapting a Pentax 6X7 lens for the Graflex 69 film holder.
http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-medium-format-645-6x7-645d/204669-takumar-6x7-speed-graphic.html#post2162540

Hope this link works and I liked your work there in South Australia. A long time since I was there.

[Jim Jones]

Some other press and technical cameras have movements, too. Busch and Burke & James are fairly common in the U. S., and less expensive than a good Super Graphic. The B&J has a revolving back, handy for portraits.

[hoffy]

Thanks for the suggestion Jim.

[cluttered]

If it helps, you're welcome to have a play with my Crown Graphic to see if the form-factor suits you. I'm in Adelaide CBD so we could work out something. I know it's not the same as a Super Graphic however, it depends on what you're looking for.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

You could do a lot worse than a Super Graphic for a first camera. The SG was a somewhat more slanted toward being a generalist's all-around camera than merely a press camera. It has a revolving back and that's really nice when you do portraiture. They're very robust-- not quite indestructible, but nearly so. The vinyl bellows seems more likely to be pinhole free than similarly-aged leather bellows. The camera folds up more compactly than a Crown Graphic and may even be a touch lighter. You should be able to fold it up with most any 135mm or 150mm Tessar or Plasmat lens attached.

If you find do one with a cam and infinity stops properly set up and working as it should (likely that lens will be a 135mm Optar which was pretty much standard issue, but it could have been ordered new with something else), rangefinder focusing is dead-on and repeatable. It can be a fun handheld camera, particularly with ISO 400 film and a Grafmatic and framing with the wire hoop sportsfinder. Be advised you may find it a challenge to locate factory cams for other lenses; few to none of the common modern lenses will be represented as an exact match for the cams you do easily find. I discovered that a 135mm Caltar IIN/Sironar N was not a good match to an Optar/Raptar 135mm f/4.7 cam. There are a couple of people who have posted tutorials for cutting and filing your own cams if you're so inclined.

What it is missing, however, and this was a big minus for me when I owned one, is geared focusing on the inner rail, for lenses of 90mm or shorter focal length on standard flat boards.

I bought one in average condition here 3 years ago for $250 USD without a lens (I had a Raptar 135mm laying around) and sold it for about what I had into it a year later.

[Bill_1856]

Also look into the Busch Pressman. It has all the movements of a Super Graphic, and is usually about half the price. The Super requires a custom rangefinder cam for each lens, while the Busch can be adjusted for any one lens.

[Alan Gales]

I recently bought a Crown for shooting people. It sets up really fast, isn't fussy and is very robust. I really like it so far.

My rangefinder is calibrated to the 135mm lens and the light even works but I don't plan on hand holding it. With the cost of 4x5 film I want a sharp image with no camera shake.

Just my 2 cents.

[Kuzano]

CameraQuest.com has two pages on the Super Graphic. One on the camera and movements. A second on some custom mods that can be made. I have three which cost me a total of about $400 for all three. I modify them for my needs. First to go is about a pound of stuff for the rangefinder and all it's circuitry. I have no desire to use rangefinder or handhold medium format. Film is getting too expensive, and my ability to handhold too shaky to ruin film in that way.

Note: I never molest or modify a functional camera. The good news is that most Super Graphics in the marketplace are not totally functional with regard to the rangefinder. Often the ribbon conductors folded into the pleats in the bellows to transfer the shutter actuation to the lens board are shot. I have tried and never found someone who makes the bellows with the internal circuitry in the pleats.

The links on CameraQuest:

http://www.cameraquest.com/supergrp.htm

http://cameraquest.com/supercov.htm

My goal when I find a fairly complete "parts" Super is to bring the weight down to 3.5-4 pounds, remove all the rangefinder crap, convert movements to add a bit of capability, and make the camera GG viewing only.

Have had all the wood folding field cameras... Tachihara, Woodfield, Shen Hao, Wista, and a number of the Toyo... the 45A, 45AII, 45CF, half dozen monorails, 3 Gowland Pockets. My first LF camera was a Crown, and then another. Then I bought my first Super Graphic and took it in the skivvies on the price... $595.

None of the other mfr cameras have kept me from going back to a "hacked", beat up, improved Super Graphic. One functional, and a couple in project mode. My next one will have the tilt back mod, but there's no real urgency there, since what I've done so far surpasses most of my movements need.

To correct one earlier piece of information... The rangefinder cams in the Super Graphic ARE cut differently for the differing focal lengths. I have an 80mm cam that is definitely quite different in shape than the one I have for 135mm. Finding the cams is hard, although there are a couple of web sites that give templates for cutting your own.

NOTE: If you do buy a Super with the idea of handholding, as a compromise,
1) Make sure the rangefinder works
2) Make sure you have cams for the varied focal lengths you plan to use
3) Plan to use a cable release to the front of the camera, because if you lose the ability to get electric current from the red button circuitry in the top of the camera, THROUGH the bellows, you'll be limited to finding working good used bellows internally wired for the job (through the pleats).

[hoffy]

If it helps, you're welcome to have a play with my Crown Graphic to see if the form-factor suits you. I'm in Adelaide CBD so we could work out something. I know it's not the same as a Super Graphic however, it depends on what you're looking for.

Thanks Cluttered - I might just take you up on that offer.

Going slightly Off Topic - have you heard of the Adelaide Film and Dark Room Users Group :) ....Going out for a shoot on Sunday at Strath....Meeting ths monday @ the Gilbert Street Hotel (OK enough of the shameless plug...)

OK, going BACK on topic - I have just come back from my lunch break and have played with the one I mentioned earlier - Its definately a Super, but as I suggested, the lens is a 127 Rodenstock. According to the guy behind the counter, the cam is not the correct one, butthe RF has been adjusted to suit - would that be possible? I am not sure on the price, as its up there ($495 Aust).

Cheers

[sully75]

My opinion (which might be echoed by some): screw the rangefinder. If you are shooting LF portraits, it's all about setting up your shot really well on the tripod. You want the slickest, easiest to adjust camera around. I don't think Super Graphic is that camera (never touched one though). Personally I love my Chamonix (a lot more money) but I think you want a nice field camera, of which there are a lot.

Super Graphic is a bit of an El Camino. Neither here nor there.

Anyway, get a nice field camera, or a nice Toyo monorail. Or another monorail. That's your portrait camera. Get a Crown Graphic with a matching lens for your handheld stuff. If I was shooting handheld portraits, I'd be looking for a Mamiya 6 or 7. 4x5 negatives involve a lot of work and cost in processing. So for me, I want the camera on a tripod and I want to be sure that I'm getting the shot I think I'm getting. The Mamiya would be better for handholding, the negatives are going to be competitive with a 4x5 negative.

Also, the lens you mentioned is probably fine, but not really the most modern of lenses.

Basically I think you are going down the rabbit hole of "cool camera" when there a billion more ordinary, less interesting but actually better cameras floating around.

Or you could just buy it, because LF cameras are just boxes, and it doesn't matter anyway. You can take great pictures with it, certainly.

I stick with this though: buy a nice field or monorail camera (monorails are super cheap these days, relatively). Get a Crown Graphic if you want to shoot handheld, which you probably aren't/shouldn't. Or just buy something. I think Super Graphics are a bit overpriced. I blame Stephen Gandy.

[hoffy]

My opinion (which might be echoed by some): screw the rangefinder. If you are shooting LF portraits, it's all about setting up your shot really well on the tripod. You want the slickest, easiest to adjust camera around. I don't think Super Graphic is that camera (never touched one though). Personally I love my Chamonix (a lot more money) but I think you want a nice field camera, of which there are a lot.

Super Graphic is a bit of an El Camino. Neither here nor there.

Anyway, get a nice field camera, or a nice Toyo monorail. Or another monorail. That's your portrait camera. Get a Crown Graphic with a matching lens for your handheld stuff. If I was shooting handheld portraits, I'd be looking for a Mamiya 6 or 7. 4x5 negatives involve a lot of work and cost in processing. So for me, I want the camera on a tripod and I want to be sure that I'm getting the shot I think I'm getting. The Mamiya would be better for handholding, the negatives are going to be competitive with a 4x5 negative.

Also, the lens you mentioned is probably fine, but not really the most modern of lenses.

Basically I think you are going down the rabbit hole of "cool camera" when there a billion more ordinary, less interesting but actually better cameras floating around.

Or you could just buy it, because LF cameras are just boxes, and it doesn't matter anyway. You can take great pictures with it, certainly.

I stick with this though: buy a nice field or monorail camera (monorails are super cheap these days, relatively). Get a Crown Graphic if you want to shoot handheld, which you probably aren't/shouldn't. Or just buy something. I think Super Graphics are a bit overpriced. I blame Stephen Gandy.

Thanks for your opinion. The thing is that if the opinion of using a large format RF is that it really brings no benefit, then I will probably forgo it and stick with Medium Format.

This is also part of the decision process I am going through.

Cheers

[cluttered]

The thing is that if the opinion of using a large format RF is that it really brings no benefit, then I will probably forgo it and stick with Medium Format.

I consider my Crown Graphic both as a large format RF (it's lighter than some MF gear!) as well as a LF view camera (albeit with limited movements).

[Frank Petronio]

There is no "right" answer and they are all good, usable cameras if you buy one in good condition. In fact, I would be more apt to pick whatever is the best deal on a really clean camera over any particular model, since they are all pretty similar. None of them are going to give you the range of movements of a field camera like the Toyo A-series, or a Wista-Chamonix-Shen Hao-Linhof - so you can pretty much just get movements out of your head and be thankful they have some should you be in a pinch.

The Crown Graphic is the simplest and, to my thinking, the easiest to shoot handheld because there is less junk involved. The later models with the top rangefinders use interchangeable cams for each lens. This is a pretty solid set up but finding cams for odd lenses is difficult, so most people are satisfied to purchase a nice, clean camera with the original lens (Kodak Ektar, Graflex Optar, or Schneider Xenar - all pretty similar) and original cam. I would purchase one from a classier eBay seller or a used camera dealer like MPEX.com or KEH.com for about $450-$500. The worst case scenario is you'd get stuck for return shipping but the much more likely outcome is that you'll get a good camera ready to go out of the box. You can luck out and find the same camera for $200 on eBay if you're patient, but these are usually from ignorant or sloppy sellers who don't know if the camera has a cam installed or how anything operates, so you're out of luck if it comes and it isn't right. Or at least wasting a lot of time and money running around.

But obviously if you want a bargain, be patient.

Older Crowns may have the side-mounted Kalhart rangefinder that can be carefully adjusted to match most "normal" lenses. But it is challenging to adjust the RF correctly. The even older ones have Hugo Meyer rangefinders, which are old enough that you should probably avoid them. Generally you want something from the mid-1950s or newer, they made Graphics up until the early 1970s I think. Anything that old may still need the lens to be cleaned and the shutter cleaned and adjusted, it's a crapshoot when you are buying unless you have a straight seller. Most people charge about $100 for a CLA on a lens/shutter.

You can of course remove the rangefinder and the cables, patch the holes, and have serviceable shooter with minimal movements. You do this if you find a cheap body without a lens or if the rangefinder is too difficult to restore. The main advantage of this is that it is cheap ~ but for the same size and weight you can have a much more capable brand name field camera. So it's sort of the ghetto option. It also is an option for wide angles, dedicating a camera to a lens really. You wouldn't need rangefinder focusing for a superwide, you can zone focus.

You tend not to use long lenses on any of these cameras because of limited bellows draw - unless they are tele-designs that require less bellows.

The other big advantage of the Crown is that the rails the front standard moves upon are geared even in the shorter section at the rear of the camera. This means you can use a short lens 65-75-90mm on the rear rails with geared focusing. None of the other cameras do this. There are people who put $1500 exotic wide angle lenses into $100 Crown Graphic bodies since all you need is a nice light tight box....

~

The Speed Graphic is very similar to the Crown but you lose the rear focusing because there is a focal plane shutter in the rear part of the camera body. It makes heavier but it also give you a near 1/1000th shutter speed and the ability to use barrel mounted lenses. Most of the Speeds have side Kalhart rangefinders but I have one of the latter ones with the top rangefinder and stock Optar lens in a Graflex shutter - I like having the options.

Neither Crown nor Speed has a rotating back - you either flop the camera or the tripod head onto it's side. Under the leather handstrap is a tripod socket for verticals. I've never found this to be a hardship but it is slower than a rotating back.

Most people toss the flash gun stuff but if you do buy one that comes with a flash gun you can research how to use it or resell the main cylinder to Star Wars enthusiasts (nerdy than photographers even!) who convert them to light sabers just as George Lucas's crew did. Sometimes they pay silly good money too.

~~

I had a Super Speed outfit with three lens, cams, all the electrical stuff worked and it was great but all that electrical stuff is old and brittle not going to last long if you start actually using it actively. So Kuzano's suggestions to modify it out, similar to how the Cameraquest website shows: http://www.cameraquest.com/supercov.htm makes more sense than trying to use it as a press camera IMHO. It was originally supposed to be a modernized design to carry on the Speed/Crown tradition but to me it felt clunky as a press camera. I suppose when they were new and the cool twisting shutters really worked and all the gadgetry was good then they were nice. But to me all that stuff now just gets in the way. It also failed in the marketplace, it truly was a Camero of cameras and had that distinct 70s vibe and brittle plastic trim.

~~~

I don't have any direct experience with MPP, B&J, or Busch press cameras so I'll shut my trap about them - but they are worth investigating if you can find a good deal on one.

I have had Linhof Technikas but I think the cheapest usable beater you might possible use would still be several times the costs of a Graphic. And even then, while they are excellent all-around rugged cameras - if all you need to do is shoot a 135mm lens handheld without movements, then I think a Crown Graphic is the best option - light and simple.

Please note that compared to using rangefinders on smaller formats, using large format rangefinders with wide open lenses for a shallow depth of field is very challenging, more so handheld. I've done it a lot myself and I call bullshit on the people that say they nail focus all the time - it is as much luck as anything. The Linhof has the best rangefinder system but it is also the most expensive - there is a lot of margin of error built into the Graphic rangefinders and you pretty much have to practice and test to know what the reality is, what is acceptable, etc. It's like a lot of amateurs, they think it looks sharp enough on a 600-pixel jpg but once you make a decent size print then you see it's off slightly. It is hard!!!

The top rangefinder Speed Graphic I currently have cost $450 with a clean Optar lens in a good Graflex shutter. I bought from this fellow, he is reliable: http://myworld.ebay.com/mwmabry/?_trksid=p4340.l2559 I know that is more than I needed to pay but it was hassle-free and reliable, the third Graphic I've bought from him over the past ten years.

The reason I chose a Speed over a Crown? I don't care about the wide angle capability but if I did experiment with a funky barrel lens then I could have the option of using the camera's focal plane shutter. The extra weight isn't too bad (not a backpacker) and while I am not a fan of handheld 4x5 after years of wasting tons of film doing it, sometimes nothing else works and you either shoot it handheld or not at all.

~~~~

Finally, if you search around you'll find fairly recent statements from me that say if you want a clean, sharp handheld photo with great resolution and 4x5 quality - shoot a Fuji 6x9 or Mamiya 7 medium format camera or even a higher end digital. Handheld 4x5 has more shake, focusing is more critical, you loose several stops of speed jumping up in size... all those practical reasons make high quality medium format a much better choice in the real world - i.e. getting the shot reliably no matter what, like for an assignment. But that said, especially when you are shooting people and portraits - everyone loves that you are using an old-fashioned press camera and they respond differently to it compared to even a nice Hasselblad or $$$$ digital. It really is more about the experience than the technical quality at that point.

Good Luck!

[Paul Ewins]

To expand a bit on what I wrote this morning (on my phone, on a train, so it was brief) the RF on the Super Graphic is cam driven, so you need the right cam for your lens; i.e. a 135 Symmar might need a different cam to a 135 Optar, but any 135 Symmar cam will work with any 135 Symmar. On a Linhof the cam is ground for your particular copy of the lens and may not work as well with another copy of the same lens. So assuming you had a 90mm, 135mm or 150mm and a 210mm with the matching cams you would be set for most LF situations with a working rangefinder.

With a Kalart (side mount) RF on a speed graphic you alter it to suit any lens in the same approximate range (I'm not sure whether it went quite as far as 210mm) which may take 30 minutes or so depending on how often you have done it. So while you can change lenses in the field it is impractical to change the rangefinder cailbration very often, so in practice it gets set to the lens you expect to use most. Once adjusted these can be quite accurate, but a little extra depth of field helps so "f8 and be there" is still good advice. When I have shot the Speed Graphic handheld and with flash I would prefocus the camera to a particular distance and preset the aperture to match the flash bulb rating. Then it was just a matter of cocking the shutter, walking to approximately the right distance, framing, then moving slightly forward and back while peering through the RF. When the RF showed focus, press the shutter button. It is a very quick way of working. The same thing would work on a sunny day without flash.

The extra movements on a Super Graphic, and the ability to modify it for more, and the revolving back make it a better choice if you want to use it for landscapes or occasional architecture shots. For people work the Speed or Crown graphics are just as good. In general if you are going to use it handheld then a working RF is important and movements aren't and if it is going to stay on a tripod then the opposite would be true.

[Jim Andrada]

I have both a Crown and a Super. I like the Crown as it is lighter and easier to use wide angle lenses because of the way the focusing rails work. I like the revolving back on the Super as well as the ease of removing the folding focusing hood which gets in my way when using the ground glass.

The Super also does have front tilt although it is a bit fiddly to engage it. I have played around a bit and discovered that it is possible to use a 75mm Grandagon on it by engaging it at the very back of the focus rails. This prevents you from dropping the bed though which isn't much of an issue in landscape orientation.

The Super came with a 127mm lens as standard and the rangefinder on mine is right on. Good handheld shots ARE possible with practice and it's a lot of fun to hand the camera with flash to a waiter and ask him to take your picture. I often stick a monopod under mine and that works well.

All in all I think the Graphic is a good choice. I also have 5 x 7 and 8 10 Linhof monorail cameras and they are real joys to use as long as you use them close to the car or use a baby stroller to carry them. I have a Seneca 8 x 10 as well and really love it. So I'm not blind to the advantages of monorail designs, but the ability to just toss the Super in my briefcase with a Grafmatic and a small tripod or monopod counts for a lot.

If you can't find a Super lens board it's easy to put a bit of tape on the regular lens board where the side bumps would normally be. My Super also has a Linhof hand grip on it whih makes it a lot easier to hand hold.

[IanG]

I have both a Crown & a Super Graphic, the Super was a bit of a beater which I've now restored.

Before I bought the Super I was having to choose between using my Wista 45DX on a tripod or my Crown Graphic which I also used hand-held (some places I shoot tripods aren't allowed) and travelling with a backpack meant I couldn't take both. On many occasions I found the very limited movements of the Crown Graphic frustrating.

Switching to the Super Graphic has meant I can use one camera for both hand-held and tripod work, I've not restored the rangefinder but that's not an issue as I used movents quite frequently. I've found the Super has plenty of movements for the projects I use it for and I wish I'd found one earlier, I had been contemplating an MPP (a Britsh clone of the WWII Linhofs).

So I agree with Frank that a Siper Graphic is a good choice.

Ian

[hoffy]

Now, this might seem like an obvious question, but has anyone ever tried to reproduce the Cam's? Surely this is something that could be relatively easily done on an NC mill?

Cheers

[IanG]

Look on the Graflex.org website, people have made their own cams and often by hand. I have a file I downloaded with the patterns but it would probably take some finding.

Ian

[Kuzano]

Finally, if you search around you'll find fairly recent statements from me that say if you want a clean, sharp handheld photo with great resolution and 4x5 quality - shoot a Fuji 6x9 or Mamiya 7 medium format camera or even a higher end digital. Handheld 4x5 has more shake, focusing is more critical, you loose several stops of speed jumping up in size... all those practical reasons make high quality medium format a much better choice in the real world - i.e. getting the shot reliably no matter what, like for an assignment. But that said, especially when you are shooting people and portraits - everyone loves that you are using an old-fashioned press camera and they respond differently to it compared to even a nice Hasselblad or $$$$ digital. It really is more about the experience than the technical quality at that point.

Good Luck!

I agree with Frank on his post, and particularly the last paragraph. In the last decade, maybe more, there has not been a time when I did not own one of the older Fujica interchangeable lens G690 or GL690 cameras. My current model is a G690bl with a standard 100mm lens and an AE100 metered lens. That lens has the EBC coating, which was used on all the GW and GSW models after.

I purchased the AE100 lens for a great price with a non functioning meter, and Frank Marshman revived the meter for me. He's done a lot of work on Fuji MF cameras for me in the past. That metered lens and the EBC coating add another dimension to Fuji's old rangefinders.

The Supers have been for when I wanted movements plus the larger neg. However, it's interesting how big you can print 6X9 shot with Fuji glass. In addition, with the Fujica I can achieve 6X17 with two, perhaps three frames stitched.

The revolving back on the Super also adds the occasional capacity to shoot roll film up to 6X12, with a roll film back and still have movements.

The cams on the Super are discussed in many places on the internet, and here is just one link that offers up all the dimensions for a wide range of Super Graphic cams.

http://www.graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=4653

But again, as I noted, and as Frank commented in his post. I am far past the time and income when I can "blow" out lots of 4X5 film with trying to hand hold large format. There was a time in my life when I wanted to show I was not the 97 pound weakling getting sand kicked in his face at the beach, but you know... I never got one pretty lady because I could handhold ten pounds of camera:cool:

Oh sure...... tell me handholding isn't mostly about ego!

[Ivan J. Eberle]

Heck, there are a lot of times and places where hand holding a rangefinder 4x5 camera with medium speed or faster films and a semi-wide angle 135mm is perfectly fine, and may get you the shot you won't get with a slower more considered ground-glass LF approach. Range-folders like the Super Graphic are about as good as 4x5 gets for this. Oftentimes, a tripod is really only useful for locking in or tweaking composition, or if you need moves. Too, tripods don't work so well in deep powder snow or shifting sand, and/or often slow you down to the point where you'll get washed by a wave or you camera will be wet or snowy. Snowy scenes with a polarizer? No problem shooting handheld with ISO 160 or 400 color neg films at f/16 and 1/60s or faster. Leki pole with a 1/4-20 under the top knob can be helpful down to about 1/8s, with practice.

[BrianShaw]

Like Ivan said...

It isn't about "ego"; it is about getting a shot. Handholding a Graphic (and I do that with both an Anniversary model and a Super Graphic) is a respectable way to operate. I haven't "blown" too many pieces of film and have many keepers to prove that the old press photographers knew what they were doing.

[BrianShaw]

p.s. Super Graphics were "over priced" long before Steve Gandy. :)

I'm thinking that Crown Graphics are now overpriced because of this forum.

[Alan Gales]

I'm thinking that Crown Graphics are now overpriced because of this forum.


It took me quite a while to find my clean late model Crown at a fair price. A lot of Sellers are asking 5-$600.00 on Ebay. Notice I said asking. I don't think anyone is actually buying at those prices!

[Frank Petronio]

Yeah if everything you shoot is 1/60th @ f/16 then you can be stone drunk and still get good shots. You know what I'm saying, I could hold my Sinar sideways gangsta style with a splif in my mouth and still put a cap in your ass with it at those settings boyz....

Try shooting a fidgety stripper at 1/15 @ f/4.7 and tell me how many sheets you waste.

[Alan Gales]

I don't know, Frank. I never shot a figety stripper at 1/15 @ 4.7. They always just took my dollar and went to the next dude. ;)

[hoffy]

Next time you are shooting fidgety strippers, can I come with?

In relation to the price, what is the MARKET value for a Super in good used condition? I know what people WANT to pay and I can see what the endless loop ad's on Ebay are for, but what are people actually paying?

[BrianShaw]

Yes, choose the tool for the situation and lighting and subject and film speed. Of course. :)

[Brian C. Miller]

Yeah if everything you shoot is 1/60th @ f/16 then you can be stone drunk and still get good shots. You know what I'm saying, I could hold my Sinar sideways gangsta style with a splif in my mouth and still put a cap in your ass with it at those settings boyz....

Try shooting a fidgety stripper at 1/15 @ f/4.7 and tell me how many sheets you waste.

Somehow "Petronio is Gangnam style" just doesn't have the right ring to it. Instead of a South Korean hip and swanky neighborhood, it would have to be some kind of Italian thing, like, "Never go against a Sicilian when Tri-X is on the line!"

[Ivan J. Eberle]

Next time you are shooting fidgety strippers, can I come with?

In relation to the price, what is the MARKET value for a Super in good used condition? I know what people WANT to pay and I can see what the endless loop ad's on Ebay are for, but what are people actually paying?

Logged in to Ebay, using Advanced Search, if you check the box "Completed Listings Only" you'll be able to see at what price levels items did or did not sell.

I'd be surprised if you'd have to pay over $350-400 USD + shipping for a nice working Super Graphic with a standard Optar-- provided you're patient. Seem to recall seing fair but ugly ones go for as little as two hundred?

What's a little odd is that I've run across ads for quite a number of boxed and seemingly pristine examples, with few or no indications of use. People sometimes ask, and sometimes get the moon for them. Many Supers it would seem were owned by amateurs/collectors, or perhaps they didn't sell too well. Looks-wise, they're rather drab and industrial, frankly, not exactly what you'd consider collector pieces. They're not especially ergonomic or cute but rather intended to be used. Many weren't used much, and that might be a bit curious were it not for the reality that by the time the Supers and Super Speeds were introduced in the late 1950's/early 60's, offset printing presses were starting to eliminate the need for 4x5 sized images for newspaper use (halftone separations could now be enlarged, not just contact printed). So Supers arrived about a half-decade too late on the scene. Medium format and especially Rollei TLRs were already overtaking 4x5 for most reportage, and 35mm would soon overtake both.

[Alan Gales]

In relation to the price, what is the MARKET value for a Super in good used condition? I know what people WANT to pay and I can see what the endless loop ad's on Ebay are for, but what are people actually paying?

I would say if you can find a real nice one with lens for $600.00 you might want to grab it. You can get a clean late model Crown with top rangefinder and Xenar for $400.00 or a little less if you are patient.

A friend of mine has a Super Speed Graphic. It's the same camera as the Super Graphic except the shutter is real fast but also problematic. I was trying to trade him out of it to no avail so I was watching the Super Graphics on Ebay. I eventually bought a Crown and have not regretted it so far. I bought it for shooting portraits outdoors.

[retnull]

I bought a Speed Graphic a few months ago, because I thought using barrel lenses would be cool. But it's too cool for the likes of me! My main frustrations with the camera were the difficulty of switching from landscape to portrait mode, and the size/weight/handling.

So this month I bought a Super Graphic, and I love it! The rotating back is awesome. I didn't realize that having more (and easier) movements would be so useful. The ground glass is better than the Speed. The size and weight are more appealing, and despite what others say, I think the styling is beautiful.

The Super is the final version of a camera that had been manufactured for decades. It seems to me it's a refinement of earlier designs: sleeker, more efficient, more ergonomic.

[Kuzano]

Frank...

You can probably be much steadier being near fidgety strippers than I can. At 69, whenever I get near a fidgety stripper, the drool runs all over my camera and I couldn't hold it steady enough at 1/250th and f32.:eek:

Imagine either the lighting, or the location on that one. Certainly not in a smoky bar filled with chrome poles and smoke.

[Frank Petronio]

I've never had the guts to shoot in a strip club, besides the fact that I've only been to two, with friends in awkward situations. But I have shot plenty of people at 1/15th @ f/4.7 and that was the point I was trying to make... your odds of shooting 4x5 successful in those situations plummet. But certainly hopping out of the car with large flashbulb and blasting away at f/16 or smaller from 30 feet away, then cropping, as WeeGee was apt to do... much less making a landscape in good light with a fast shutter speed and middle aperture - then it's almost child's play.

It's just that once the sun goes into shade or starts fading, the Fuji or Mamiya medium format rangefinders give you at least two stops advantage, perhaps more. And on enlargement, the minor camera shake negates the benefits of 4x5 versus 120 film.

I have shot a couple of people that worked in the adult industry but in off-duty, modest situations. (And the stereotype of strippers being scummy holds true, I don't romanticize or try to overly humanize them.)

[Alan Gales]

We are just playing with you, Frank. I've been to a few strip clubs for bachelor parties a long time ago. Yes, awkward and expensive!

A good friend of mine had a son (who I also became friends with) who managed a large strip club. He could tell you some stories!

[Frank Petronio]

You know how prudish I am ;-p

[hoffy]

Thanks everyone for all your comments thus far. This is actually helping me a lot.

But, there is something else that is helping me make my decision. This afternoon, I had a bit of a play with the Toyo Monorail that I have borrowed - I set it up to take a few test frames of the nearly dead roses I gave my wife last Friday (I should mention, they were alive when I gave them to her!). After 1 1/2 hours of fiddling, I finally pulled a darkslide and pressed the shutter. While I get that using a LF camera with movements is slow and deliberate and I also get I will improve with experience, I am not really sure that this is exactly what I want to be doing.

I have also been thinking about what I am ultimately trying to achieve and whether Large format is where its at. And to be honest, I think LF is beyond me.

Yes, a Super/Speed/Crown might be fun, but will I see vast improvements over using my Koni-Omega or my Bronica SQAi? Considering I have yet to print larger then 8x10 in the darkroom (not saying that I won't print larger then 8x10 - I do see 16x20's most definitely happening), the answer has to be no.

So, to be honest, I think I am going to give LF a miss and instead ensure that I have good kit of either (or both) of the above systems. I will probably shoot the box of Arista I bought - maybe that will change my mind...

Now, where is that nice fellow selling that K-O.

Cheers

[Frank Petronio]

Gotta learn to wait for Denny to write the 10,000 word epic post first, fuck, he has a government job.

[IanG]

I bought a Speed Graphic a few months ago, because I thought using barrel lenses would be cool. But it's too cool for the likes of me! My main frustrations with the camera were the difficulty of switching from landscape to portrait mode, and the size/weight/handling.

So this month I bought a Super Graphic, and I love it! The rotating back is awesome. I didn't realize that having more (and easier) movements would be so useful. The ground glass is better than the Speed. The size and weight are more appealing, and despite what others say, I think the styling is beautiful.

The Super is the final version of a camera that had been manufactured for decades. It seems to me it's a refinement of earlier designs: sleeker, more efficient, more ergonomic.

The high-lighted bit says it all.

I replaced the screens on all my Grafle cameras and now they are all very bright and easy to use, with the focus hood I never need to use a dark-cloth. The orginal Graflex screens were quite dark.

Graflex left it rather late to bring out the Super Graphic and as a consequence Linhof in Europe & the US and MPP in the UK had better cameras available compared to the Crown/Speed Graphics.

Ironically in the UK the MPP MicroPress was in fact Speed Graphicparts in a British made wooden body with a British top-mounted rangefinder inside the casing, this predates the top mounted Speed Graphics. At that point there were severe Import restrictions in the UK so cameras weren;t imported but parts could be. MPP's Micro Technical camera was a better seller (UK & British Commonwealth) based on the WWII Linhof and these cameras must have been a wake up call to Graflex prompting the design of the Super Graphic to compete.

Ian

[Kuzano]

I bought a Speed Graphic a few months ago, because I thought using barrel lenses would be cool. But it's too cool for the likes of me! My main frustrations with the camera were the difficulty of switching from landscape to portrait mode, and the size/weight/handling.

So this month I bought a Super Graphic, and I love it! The rotating back is awesome. I didn't realize that having more (and easier) movements would be so useful. The ground glass is better than the Speed. The size and weight are more appealing, and despite what others say, I think the styling is beautiful.

The Super is the final version of a camera that had been manufactured for decades. It seems to me it's a refinement of earlier designs: sleeker, more efficient, more ergonomic.

When Graflex ceased production of the Super Graphic, They sold the rights to Toyo. Toyo went on to produce the SAME camera as a Toyo Super Graphic for some time before coming out with their own metal folding field camera, leading into the 45A and following models. There might have been something in between the Toyo Super Graphic and the 45A... not sure.

However the Super Graphic lived on for a bit, and the only visible difference was in the smaller script Toyo name in front of the Super Graphic name on the front (bottom of the drop down bed). I have seen a few of them on eBay. If you want to call the Super Graphic overpriced, then you might balk at the Toyo Super Graphic price, which I have almost always seen sell between $1000 and $1500. I saw a "minty" one on eBay was about two months ago at $1500.

Right now, there is a Toyo Super on eBay, at a bargain price of $750 (sale?), but by the definition it is rather "sketchy" in condition. The bellows looks very near in need of replacement, and the back door and hood appear missing. It is an opportunity to see that it is the same visually as the Graflex Super except for the branding. Link here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GRAFLEX-TOYO-SUPER-GRAPHIC-50-0200353-4X5-CAMERA-F4-7-127MM-LENS-/160902318114?pt=US_Vintage_Cameras&hash=item2576868822

I spoke with Fred Lustig in Reno on the Toyo. (at the time, I had him install a good used bellows on one of my Supers as the original bellows is NLA and no one will make one with the correct wiring running through the pleats) We talked about the Toyo, and he remarked that the Toyo Super was a hack on build quality and not nearly as good as the original Graflex. So my recent purchase of a near complete Super for $175, only missing the rear door, hood, GG makes me pretty happy. eBay purchase. I constantly monitor a few select cameras every week or so on eBay. Older Fujica Texas Leicas, Super Graphics and Gowland Pocket 4X5's.

Deals are out there on the Supers if you wait and if you are willing to scrounge for parts.

[BrianShaw]

But I have shot plenty of people at 1/15th @ f/4.7 and that was the point I was trying to make... your odds of shooting 4x5 successful in those situations plummet.

Indeed... a situation that one is well-advised (as you have done) to avoid if wasting film is not the goal!

[BrianShaw]

I have also been thinking about what I am ultimately trying to achieve and whether Large format is where its at. And to be honest, I think LF is beyond me.


It's not really. I don't know you but I'll bet that if youwant to use a LF camera then you can learn to use it effectively. It isn't rocket surgery, after all. But realizing it is or isn't the right tool is a good thing. There is little sense getting frustrated or wasting film and not getting the shot.

[Alan Gales]

It's not really. I don't know you but I'll bet that if youwant to use a LF camera then you can learn to use it effectively. It isn't rocket surgery, after all. But realizing it is or isn't the right tool is a good thing. There is little sense getting frustrated or wasting film and not getting the shot.

I completely agree. It's not that hard. You just need to take the time and practice.

The hard part of photography has nothing to do with the equipment. Artistic vision is required no matter which format you use. A lot of photographers can make a technically great image but making an image that captivates the viewer is something else.

[Frank Petronio]

83341

But strippers don't require that much artistic vision.

[Alan Gales]

83341

But strippers don't require that much artistic vision.

;) Wink!

[Frank Petronio]

it's more of a stab, I probably tossed the negs to it, just so scary