Reality Check on Prices

[nimo956]

I'm finally making the foray in LF photography and have started to acquire the big ticket items: 4x5 camera, lens, tripod and head. These have eaten up most of my budget, but there's still a long list of small items that I need. I need a reality check though on some of the prices that I'm seeing. What should a person new to LF pay for the following:

1. Loupe- I've seen these from $8 to $150
2. Light Meter- These start at $150; should I just use my Canon 40D?
3. Dark Cloth- Do I really need to spend $60 for a piece of cloth?
4. Backpack- Here it might make sense at least to spend $150
5. Scanner- Do I need this starting out? Is a good one like $700?
6. Filters- I'd like to spend a fair bit of money here b/c they actually affect your image
7. Cable Release- what kind do you want exactly?

Misc. other stuff:

7. Lens Wrench
8. Lens Wrap
9. 4x5 negative sleeves
10. Ansel Adam books 1 & 2 :)

Out of the list above, where would you prioritize spending money? What can you skimp on or forget entirely?

[Frank Petronio]

1. An $8 loupe will work OK. There are other inexpensive alternatives, such as an old cheap beat-up 50mm lens from a 35mm camera - just flip it and look through the rear - it becomes a high quality loupe. But then on the forum other people will swear by a expensive tilting loupe by Silvestri. Pfft but to each their own.

Personally I use a Horseman hood loupe that I think cost $80, it is longer so it can be used with the metal folding focusing hoods I like to use with my cameras. It is 7 or 8x but that is a personal preference, many people prefer a 4x loupe. Part of it depends on the kind of fresnel screen you might use, too high a power amplified the distraction of the screen's pattern. I don't like fresnels for that reason. You simply have to settle ~ or try a few options, returning or reselling what doesn't work.

Buying from a dealer that has a good return policy (KEH, MPEX for used, B&H for new) is less hassle than asking a private sale seller to take a return that they really shouldn't have to. On the classified ads here on this forum, most of the stuff is of good quality but being traded as people define what it is they really like to work with (or they are getting divorced because they shoot too much, those are always the best deals). If you buy good used gear with a modicum of research, then you can resell it at nearly the same price and break even as you experiment.

2. If you want to use the Zone System techniques, even if only for exposure if not the whole cult, then a good spot meter is important. A Pentax Digital Spot meter is $250-$300 used (they aren't made new anymore). But if you just want a good general purpose incident and reflected meter, then a $150 new one or a $75 used one will be great. The more expensive the meter, in general, the more stupidly feature-burdened and impossible to use it becomes. Classic, always popular meters under $100 used are Gossen Luna-Pro variants and Minolta Auto-Meter IVFs. Personally I find Sekonics funky but the people who drop $$$ them seem to like them fine. It's like college, if you spend a lot of money on it then it is the greatest college in the world.

That said, the meter in a modern DSLR is probably better than most of the photographers here. The caution is that the meter will not exactly match your film ISO or color perception. You're not going to be that far off either though so simply shoot and make adjustments if you feel your film is under or overexposed consistently. You'll be fine with it to start.

3. Most people will tell you to use a black t-shirt instead of a dark cloth. I most often use a dark shirt, rain coat, or windbreaker. It is not as perfectly dark as that $60 BlackJacket but it works fine. After watching view camera classes in action, I think some people spend way too much time ditzing around under the darkcloth or they can't make up their mind anyway. They need Gore-Tex dark clothes because they spend so long under them.

Again to each their own, I'm not a hater, just an observer.

4. I don't know, I just toss stuff into a common backpack rather than a dedicated photo pack. You can get more into a smaller pack if you wrap and pad it individually - and a view camera can be wrapped in a jacket or dark cloth, lenses can go into Tupperware containers, Domke Lenswraps or other pouches can be used for smaller parts. I just toss it all in and let God sort it out, the heavy stuff works its way to the bottom ;-p The advantage of using a non-photo backpack includes the fact that you can pick the best suspension system that fits you, instead of the crudeness of a $300 photo backpack where the straps were an afterthought. All those padded dividers and weird photo carrying gizmos weight a lot too. Perhaps if you were taking a DSLR with a 400mm lens it would be a different story but we are mostly lugging little box like things.

5. Yeah no point settling for an intermediate scanner, either get an Epson 700 or 750 or bottom feed and find an older model Epson 4990. You may have to disassemble and clean the platen, the cheap plastic off-gases. Unfortunately scanner design is stagnant and no new competitive products are in sight. The best option is to send out for drum scans of course but you still want a decent flatbed with an 8x10 scanning area (it should have a "transparency unit" in the lid to shine a light through the film - most cheap scanners do not have this or it is undersized) for proofing. I use Epson scans carefully done for up to 11x17 prints and they are quite nice, fine for prepress and portfolios. I think the 700 is as good as the 750 so at least that saves you a few $. It sucks they don't build them better for the money but they got us by the @@#@#@#.

6. Filters do affect the image but nobody says you have to use them. If you are the average landscapist backpacker type who wants a dramatic B&W large-format image then start with one light yellow screw-in filter. Don't get too many because it will just get too complicated too early. Be simple and consistent with film, exposure, filter usage, etc. You can get adapter rings to use a larger filter on smaller diameter lenses. Avoid the cheapest plastic filters but don't waste $100 on some uber filter either. Don't get into gradated or fancy stuff until you shoot some decent basic stuff. I haven't used a filter in ten years, myself, I think it's over-controlling most of the time and most scenes don't need them.

Of course for the past few years I only use Kodak Portra 400 color negative film and use the color conversion capabilities of Photoshop to adjust how each color converts to grey. So in that regard it is like having an infinite stack of completely adjustable filters in post - so my advice to use one filter is yet another paradox in my advice.

7. You want a spare cable release, lol. But there is no point in getting too worked up over them. I prefer short cloth $12 Gepe releases that are inexpensive but still good quality, I screw one into each lens to save the hassle of always switching them. After you shoot a while try a longer one and learn which you prefer. The metal and vinyl covered releases are stiff and more durable, but I don't like stiff releases.

~~~

A lens wrench is just a flat piece of metal cut to fit the retaining rings on popular Copal/Compur mounted lenses, you see them with "name" brands for under $20 on eBay or at the dealers. I like using them rather than fudging it, but you can carefully fudge and tighten those retaining rings with a screwdriver slanted into the slot. Just don't come crying to me if it slips and messes up the shutter.

Lenswrap? - well then you don't need a padded photo backpack anymore ;-) unless you wear a belt and suspenders. Even free bubblewrap works well if you are on a budget.

I use Printfile page-sized 4-up sleeves in three ring (archival!) binders for my film, plus other sizes for other formats. Lots of other people do too. You gotta put it somewhere!

Ansel Adams? Who's that?

A $4 box of Ziploc bags for lenses and film holders is really a good idea and better than spending a lot more money on some dedicated dirt-holding case. Add some rubberbands and a roll of bubblewrap and save the $16 a Lenswrap would cost.

I hope you got a good economical camera and a regular, normal lens in a good shutter. Then you spent the most on a really solid tripod because that is the very best investment, imho. I do this professionally/almost 30 years now/used a lot of cameras and I mostly use a normal $600 4x5 camera with a $400 normal 150mm lens, period. The tripod cost more than the camera. Keep it simple.

Good luck! Mostly you need to just go out and shoot and then you refine after a little experience, not before. Like any other complex activity (fly fishing, woodworking) you can get absorbed by the minutia and intimidated from actual photography (as in the case of many "experts" in any of these fields!)

[ScottPhotoCo]

Well said Frank.

Tim
www.ScottPhoto.co

[retnull]

One more option, if you want to cheap-out on the light meter: there's a free iPhone app called "Light Meter" that works exactly as it should. One less extra accessory to lug around.

[Bill_1856]

I'm not sure where you live, but the best use of all that startup money would be to first sign up for a good workshop where they specialize in large format photography.

[John Kasaian]

1. If you're shooting 4x5, get a Fuji loupe 'cause everyone else seems to have one. If not any cheap ol' loupe will work
2. Use your Canon. Don't spend any more $$ than you have to at this stage of the game
3. A black, thick t-shirt or sweat shirt will work
4. Use what you've got. After you've packed your 4x5 on a few hikes you'll better know exactly what you want in a pack
5. A set of trays, a graduate and a piece of heavy glass work fine, maybe $30 if you buy new. Quite a bit less if used.
6. Depends on your lens. You may already have a set of filters that fit if you were a Nikon SLR shoot in the previous life.
7. This you do need if your lens has a shutter. I prefer the Gepe Pro, with Minette (from Calumet) second. Good ones like the Gepe and Minette aren't expensive either. Splurge.
7 (see what you did there?) You won't need one until you need one, and you may actually never need one. Don't worry about it until you do.
8. If your lens is mounted on a lensboard, use the lens caps, stick the whole enchilada in a zip lock baggie and either keep it in a small cardboard box, or wrap in your black t-shirt/dark cloth for protection.
9. I like Printfiles but Savage look cooler.
10.Get all three books in the series and 40 Examples as well, but don't let that keep you from going out and shooting.
You forgot the film!

[IanG]

Frank and John have really said it all.

If you can get to a camera fair or swap meet then you can save a lot of money on all the items you've listed. Alterbately watch the sales/wanted adverts here and APUG.

Ian

[neil poulsen]

As for a darkcloth, I went to a fabric store and found a lightweight cloth such that it was hard to light though two sheets of cloth. I brought enough for my wife to kindly sew it together for me. It worked very well.

[Brian Ellis]

It's mostly just a matter of how much inconvenience/PITA you're willing to tolerate for how much saving in cost. Sure, you can use a tee shirt or something similar for a dark cloth. But a hood-type such as the BTZS hoods sold by The View Camera Store for about $50 will give you some ventilation and help keep condensation off the ground glass in cold or humid conditions.

You can use your digital camera instead of a dedicated light meter, or for that matter you can use the Sunny 16 system and dispense with a light meter entirely. Neither will give you the degree of control that a good spot meter will give, and your digital camera is probably bigger and heavier than many meters, but the camera will work after a fashion.

Filters? Forget them. Since you're scanning I assume you're printing digitally and using Photoshop or a similar program. The filter effects in Photoshop do a better job than traditional b&w filters and probably color too. The only filters I use these days are a polarizer and a couple graduated ND filters though in a pinch I could get away without them too.

Backpack? Again, how much inconvenience are you willing to tolerate? If you have a high degree of tolerance for discomfort and don't carry a lot of gear you could buy the kind of backpacks students use to carry books. Or maybe a cheap hiking backpack would work. Personally I like the convenience of a dedicated backpack with compartments for lenses and other things not to mention comfort. You can spend almost as much as you want on a backpack. IMHO that's not an area on which to skimp and save money. A good comfortable, convenient backpack will make your photography much more enjoyable than some jury-rigged setup.

Scanner? Depends on the purpose for which you're printing and how big you think your maximum print will be. If just for the web almost any scanner will do. If you plan to make huge prints for gallery exhibitions $700 probably won't do it. In between? I'd get an Epson 700. That will allow you to make prints up to 17" wide and about as long as you want. But if you don't plan to print larger than say 8x10 or 11x14 there are other scanners that probably will do as good a job for less money. However, I don't know enough about them to suggest one.

Same is true for everything else you mention - how much money will you save by going cheap and what's your tolerance for the resulting inconvenience? E.g. you could buy one cable release and move it from one lens to another as needed. But you can buy workable cable releases for about $5. And it's a real PITA to have to remove a cable release from one lens and put it on another every time you change lenses.

You didn't mention film holders but you'll need at least one to start with. I buy the old wood ones used. They do as well as new plastic ones if they aren't warped and since not too many people use them they're usually cheap. I enjoy fixing them up to look nice too.

In general I'd suggest buying the bare minimum you need to make a photograph in a reasonable degree of comfort and convenience until you know large format photography is for you. If you buy used wisely you can probably sell a camera and lenses for about what you paid for them. But selling things like dark-cloths, backpacks, etc. isn't so easy.

[BrianShaw]

Here's how I would prioritized (by item number, from first to buy to last):

10
7
1
2
3
6
(whatever else you want/need)

[rdenney]

I'm finally making the foray in LF photography and have started to acquire the big ticket items: 4x5 camera, lens, tripod and head. These have eaten up most of my budget, but there's still a long list of small items that I need. I need a reality check though on some of the prices that I'm seeing. What should a person new to LF pay for the following:

1. Loupe- I've seen these from $8 to $150
2. Light Meter- These start at $150; should I just use my Canon 40D?
3. Dark Cloth- Do I really need to spend $60 for a piece of cloth?
4. Backpack- Here it might make sense at least to spend $150
5. Scanner- Do I need this starting out? Is a good one like $700?
6. Filters- I'd like to spend a fair bit of money here b/c they actually affect your image
7. Cable Release- what kind do you want exactly?

Misc. other stuff:

7. Lens Wrench
8. Lens Wrap
9. 4x5 negative sleeves
10. Ansel Adam books 1 & 2 :)

Out of the list above, where would you prioritize spending money? What can you skimp on or forget entirely?

Slight variation on the Petronio wisdom:

1. Cheapie plastic loupe. Put black tape on the clear base--it will improve contrast. When you learn the limitations of this loupe, you'll know what you need to look for in a better loupe without asking us idiots. Hint: That tilting loup Frank laughed at is not much use for those who use longer lenses, but if you end up liking really short lenses, the value of the tilting loupe will start to glow in the dark. Point is, you have to know how you work before you can really make that decision. But some loupe is essential, unless you have 20-10 vision at a range of 3 inches.
2. You can use your camera, but first decide what approach you will take. There are cheaper spot meters ont he used market than the Pentax Digital, though it is the favorite. The Sekonic L-488, for example, is a good one, and often goes for half the money of the Pentax. But Ansel Adams never used one. As for importance, you could only make photos using Sunny 16, but then good results in many conditions become a matter of hope rather than commitment.
3. Just get a big piece of black felt. Or a t-shirt. When it pulls off your glasses, musses your hair, allows half the light of the universe to spill onto the ground glass, makes you drip sweat onto the camera, becomes sodden if you get rained on, and takes up a cubic foot in your bag, then you'll appreciate the more expensive approaches. But there's time enough for that.
4. For how much distance? I don't use a backpack. But, unlike many here, I knew I had no intention of backpacking with my 4x5 camera, instead of optimizing for it and then never doing it. I made that mistake once before. Now, I use a Sinar flight case to which I attached wheels and an additional handle. (I paid a low amount for a very battered Sinar case and then rebuilt it, but you can spend more if you want to.) I poke an old Gitzo monopod through the handle and hook the flange over the other end of the case, and use it as a pull handle. Works fine even in fairly rough terrain. If I really carried my camera on rough terrain, I'd use a baby jogger. Metaphorically, does your off-road-equipped Jeep have mud on it? Be honest.
5. There is no other way to get 4x5 film into your computer than by using a scanner, unless you spend a fortune paying someone else to use a scanner. You can always build a darkroom. But most of us have to be pretty self-sufficient because services are now aimed at the high end of the market and are therefore rare and expensive.
6. Get a set of these. (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/162548-REG/LEE_Filters_GSBW_4x4_Black_White.html) When you know what filters you'll actually use, then maybe you can consider good glass filters in a large size with step-up rings to adapt them to your various lenses. But I suspect only ($$$) Heliopan or B+W filters would be much of an improvement over the Lee polyester set. You do not need to attach these to the lens--it's easy enough to just hold them in front of the lens for the exposure. But these will attach using a rubber band.
7. As Frank says, the flat-plate lens wrench is cheap enough to just go ahead and buy. And it's easier and safer to use than the adjustible spanners, unless you get a really expensive set (like the one made by S.K. Grimes).
Edit: The other number 7: Cheap cable releases work fine for Copal and Compur shutters. Self-cocking Ilex (Universal rather than Acme) shutters are another matter, and they need the stiffer and stronger types. I've used all grades and brands. The only type I don't like is the metal spiral type, which can stretch like a spring if the shutter fights back (see above about self-cocking shutters).
8. I have used them, but now I have a case that keeps the lenses secured with air around them. In an open box as a case, they are cheap and effective. But they are not a replacement for lens caps.
9. Print-file. A pack of 100 will last you a looooong time.
10. The books are part of a standard library, but I bought mine after having done large-format work for maybe 15 years. I wish I'd bought them earlier, but that doesn't negate what I learned the hard way.

Rick "built a foundation of experience" Denney

[Jim Jones]

You've received good advice from more experienced LF photographers. Until recently my approach was from a tightwad and backyard mechanic's angle. Many items were improvised.

1. I often use a single element from an old eyepiece. An expensive loupe gives a wider view, which isn't necessary for fine focusing.

2. I usually use an old Weston Master II, Norwood, or GE because I have them in working condition. If it's too dark for selenium meters, it's too dark for me to be shooting LF.

3. Search this forum for dark cloth for many ideas. White exterior is better in hot sunlight.

4. Backpacks are a very personal choice. I don't hike further than I can carry LF gear in simple bags.

5. For many years an Epson 2450 was good enough for the 16x20 maximum size from my printer. Later scanners would be better for more critical work.

6. Definitely a polarizer, and at least a red and deep yellow for scenics if you use a wet darkroom.

7. Depends on your shutters. Scruffy releases from photographic flea markets work, but carry a spare. One pneumatic release with a long tube is occasionally useful.

A lens wrench (or improvised substitute) is needed when mounting or changing lenses on boards. Each lens should have its own board unless minimum weight is absolutely necessary.

Check kitchenware for lens containers. Some metal gift boxes also work. Soft fabric held by rubber bands works for lens wraps.

I've stored negatives in old film boxes, but sleeves are much more convenient.

There are many editions of Ansel Adams books. Even the ones many decades old have some good information. Shop online for these. Adams wasn't the only good writer on photography. Way Beyond Monochrome by Lambrecht and Woodhouse is expensive, but valuable.

An efficient lens hood is needed for many older lenses. I've improvised them from dark mat board to attach to the camera instead of to the lens.

[DrTang]

One can often find a whole set up.. camera, tripod, assorted stuff.. maybe w/o the meter and scanner..but everything else and then some on ebay or craigslist classifieds at a really good price


someone just getting out of film or some student selling it off after graduating..someone's relatives selling off the stuff..whatever

for a about what one might pay for just the camera alone

that's how I get most of my stuff... buy a whole lot of it..sell off the stuff I already have or that which I have upgraded

kept what I needed

[Joseph Dickerson]

Nimo956,

Just a couple of things that I'd like to add to the already comprehensive, and well thought out, advice above.

You will eventially want/need all the stuff on your list, but it's more important to start shooting ASAP and figure out as you proceed what's necessary and what's convenient. The two aren't always the same. I've lost track of the stuff I bought that I thought I had to have but didn't. That would be a whole thread on it's own. :p

If you use a regular backpack you can carry your lenses in food storage containers. The hard plastic ones. They come in many different sizes and are cheap. A cheap foam sleeping pad from the camping store will yield a lifetime supply of padding for lenses and camera.

Most of what we do/use can be found for cheap with a little creativity.

Get the camera, tripod, cable release, and film holders...everything else is fluff, until you know you have to have it. :rolleyes:

JD

[Cletus]

I was gonna say to just read through the LF Homepage to get most of your answers, but it looks like Frank, Rick and some others have covered the basic needs to get started in generous and realistic detail.

I don't really have anything to add, other than the possible suggestion that Frank's and Rick's posts (articals) might could be successfully merged and migrated into the LF Homepage to serve as a guide for anyone asking these oft asked questions.

What's been said here so far amounts to a pretty good update, or a timely addition to "Getting Started in LF".

[nimo956]

Thank you all so much for your very detailed answers. They are very helpful indeed.

[chassis]

I agree with Frank's input.

I started with a cheap loupe, I might have paid $5 for it.

For a light meter, if you have an iPhone you can use the Lightmeter app. I have compared it many times to my Sekonic 758DR and it is very close. Close enough for black and white film. The app is free.

I use a dark beach or bath towel for a dark cloth. Free.

For a backpack I used something I had already, a JanSport day pack. In my opinion a pack like high school kids ur for book will work. Those can be found for $20-$80.

Filters aren't required, but I do like them. The basics for me with black and white are red, yellow and orange.

A lens wrench is helpful but not required. A fine screwdriver will work, but is risky because of scratches.

A lens wrap can be made with the appropriate size bath towel.

You need a cable release.

While Ansel's books are not required, they are very helpful. I have books two and three and refer to them all the time.

Having fun should be at the top of the priority list!

[John Kasaian]

My point being that if a neophyte invests in high ticket items before understanding what he actually needs or wants, as opposed to what he thinks he needs or wants, is a good way to waste a lot of money in a hurry (don't ask me how I know this!) The only way to know what is worth spending a little extra on is by going out and using your camera---what you really want or need will be evident readily enough. IMHO what the OP needs to do is go out and make photographs with whatever gear he has available and upgrade what needs to be upgraded in due time. :)

[Lenny Eiger]

I'm with everyone else on this one. Start with what you have.... I have some super equipment. But it took me 40 years to collect it. Is there any difference between my old Wista and my newer Ebony? In terms of shooting, absolutely not. Ok, there is this really cool level the Ebony has. But the Wista, with its paper bellows, still shoots just fine. The old Dagor on there is fine...

We all have times when we have a lot of cash and other times when we don't. When you have some cash, you can buy a more spiffy thing. In the meantime, you don't need filters, lens wrenches or books. It is very helpful to have a friend who knows how to develop film, and who knows how to swing and tilt and can explain this to you. However, even the swings and tilts are not absolutely necessary. Not to start out with, you can just close down to f45 and get almost all of it in focus. Grab a couple of holders, I like the plastic ones unless you have the time to refurbish the older ones, and go out shooting.

It's a grand adventure. I believe in the capability of a large format camera to teach you how to photograph. But you don't have to have everything to start.... and there's lots of help here - even if you might have to wade thru a raft of differing opinions on a particular subject.

If you want to look at books, look at other photographer's work.

And don't forget to have fun!

Lenny

[John NYC]

Regarding Frank's post #2, I'm consistently amazed at his dedication to helping new people out. Everything he said is great.

One comment I would like to emphasize... I agree that if doing B&W, just get one yellow filter and be done with it for a long while. Everything else (orange, green, red) has way more effect and can make your photos look pretty silly, imho. I do like a darkish red for goofy over-the-top fun now and then, but the more I shoot B&W the more I go bare or yellow filter and that is it.

[nimo956]

Everyone has been really helpful, and I definitely think I'm saving a lot of money by waiting to buy a lot of things. I've decided to hold off on a new dark cloth, backpack, filters, light meter, and scanner. As for the rest of the list, I found a $20 Gepe Cloth Cable Release 20", $10 lens wrench, $10 f64 lens wrap, and $6 for a pack of 25 Print-File 4x5 negative pages. The only item I'm somewhat splurging on is an $80 Peak 4x loupe, which I've heard good things about. It's square and has a diopter adjustment.

How do people carry their film holders if you're just using a loose backpack? Would you buy a separate case that fits 6?

Also, I did forget to ask what kind of film to get. I've read good things about Ilford FP4+ to start.

Since this is the gear section of the forum, if anyone's interested I just ordered:

Chamonix 045N-2
6 Chamonix Film Holders
Chamonix Lens Board
Rodenstock 150mm Sironar-N
Ries J600 Tripod
Ries J250 Tripod Head

...and the Ansel Adams books :)

[John NYC]

FP4+ is a great film, but I recommend starting with HP5+ as it is faster and is more versatile. Get to know that one film and you can do a LOT in a lot of conditions.

[John Kasaian]

My film holders ride in zip lock bags for protection against dust. You can get a small, soft sided cooler that will fit inside your day pack for a little extra padding if need be. Either of the Ilford emulsions are fine films---pick one and stick with it for +/- a year, get to really know what it can do.

[Frank Petronio]

Kodak is more expensive but has the best quality control and consistency. I doubt you will have a problem with Ilford though. A faster ISO 400 film as your standard is a good idea, you can always use the speed and grain is hardly a problem. Down the road maybe sample something else but it is hard to beat Tri-X or HP-5.

I just put film holders into Ziplocs. It depends how you pack but as long as nothing is a pressure position, they are plenty rugged naked. I have found plenty of cheap neoprene coolers that almost look like expensive photographic versions except for the annoying graphics, haha. A beer cozzy for your lens ;-)

The 150 Sironar-N is a great lens, the Ries tripod will be nice too. Good luck figuring out the Chamonix but once you understand it they seem like fine cameras.

[tgtaylor]

Everyone has been really helpful, and I definitely think I'm saving a lot of money by waiting to buy a lot of things. I've decided to hold off on a new dark cloth, backpack, filters, light meter, and scanner. As for the rest of the list, I found a $20 Gepe Cloth Cable Release 20", $10 lens wrench, $10 f64 lens wrap, and $6 for a pack of 25 Print-File 4x5 negative pages. The only item I'm somewhat splurging on is an $80 Peak 4x loupe, which I've heard good things about. It's square and has a diopter adjustment.

How do people carry their film holders if you're just using a loose backpack? Would you buy a separate case that fits 6?

Also, I did forget to ask what kind of film to get. I've read good things about Ilford FP4+ to start.
...

My thoughts are:

1. New Dark Cloth: When I first got into LF I bought a new Toyo-View dark cloth with my new Toyo-Field 45CF for about $40. A little heavy but works fine for 4x5 photography. However the Toyo Field Cameras have an optional folding focusing hood which will work if you cover the sides with both hands to block out the side light. But I also purchased large Domke wraps to protect the camera from scratches while riding in the pack. These wraps do double duty as a dark cloth when backpacking or going light and protect the camera from the inevitable scratches. I like my cameras and enjoy their looks when set-up even if I don't take the shot.

2. Filters: My best advice would be to get the Cokin Z Holder Kit with the 82mm adapter and step down rings to fit each your lens. Buy 4x5 or 4x6 filters – the Cokin resin filter for B&W (yellow, green and red ) are bargains. For Graduated,ND , UV, and polarizer don't skimp get glass filters such as Schneider. They cost more initially but with appropriate care they will last a lifetime without scratches and end up costing you less. In fact, I recommend high quality glass filters exclusively and personally have been gradually switching over from resin.

3. Film holder case: F64 hands down for 4x5. They zip shut protecting from dust and will attach anywhere on your pack and come with straps if you want to carry them from you shoulder. I use Toyo-View film holders exclusively – most of which I purchased new – and they come packaged in black plactic bags which I keep them in. The F64 case will hold 6 such holders.

4. Loupe: I purchased a new Toyo-View 4x loup with my first LF camera for $31.

5. Film: For B&W I shoot Fuji Acros for 4x5 and Ilfordf Delta 100 for 8x10. Color negative is Kodak Porta and Fuji Provia for E-6.

Thomas

[cyrus]

Small towels, bubble wrap, old socks all work fine to protect lenses.

1. Loupe: cheap plastic ones work just fine.

2. Light Meter: If you're not using the Zone System (and most LFers dont) you can use a simple cheap meter, and after a bit of practice you will realize that you only use three or four settings especially for B&W and you'll also discover the Sunny 16 rule is plenty good enough.

3. Dark Cloth, aka old jacket

4. Backpack: any old backpack that fits your camera and is comfortable enough will do, if you surround your camera with soft stuff

5. Scanner? You mean enlarger, of course.

6. Filters: for B&W you can get a yellow or red one and maybe a graduated version, and in some cases an ND filter comes in handy. that's all you need. For color you'd need a polarizer
7. Cable Release -- anyone that works. You may need an adaptor for some lenses and lens boards like s wides

These stuff are the least of your expenses as an LFer :)

[AuditorOne]

I'm finally making the foray in LF photography and have started to acquire the big ticket items: 4x5 camera, lens, tripod and head. These have eaten up most of my budget, but there's still a long list of small items that I need. I need a reality check though on some of the prices that I'm seeing. What should a person new to LF pay for the following:

1. Loupe- I've seen these from $8 to $150
2. Light Meter- These start at $150; should I just use my Canon 40D?
3. Dark Cloth- Do I really need to spend $60 for a piece of cloth?
4. Backpack- Here it might make sense at least to spend $150
5. Scanner- Do I need this starting out? Is a good one like $700?
6. Filters- I'd like to spend a fair bit of money here b/c they actually affect your image
7. Cable Release- what kind do you want exactly?

Misc. other stuff:

7. Lens Wrench
8. Lens Wrap
9. 4x5 negative sleeves
10. Ansel Adam books 1 & 2 :)

Out of the list above, where would you prioritize spending money? What can you skimp on or forget entirely?

I am a relative newbie on the LF scene. So you need to read all this understanding that I am not an expert of any sort. Rather I am what is known as the rankest amateur. Everything here could easily be ignored and you probably would not lose any sleep at all. More than likely you would turn into a great photographer, if you aren't already. But I will write this out anyway. Just understand though, you have been warned.

Whenever I become involved in a new hobby I tend to buy a lot of junk and then I sort out what I am really going to use later on. It tends to be a little expensive, and it frustrates my wife to no end, but I do have a lot of fun. Besides, I get to have these annual monster sales on e-bay where I get rid of expensive stuff at fire sale prices, telling myself all the way that I am breaking even. :o

But, out of everything I have bought, this is what I actually use.

1. A very cheap 8x magnifier bought at Wally World with black tape wrapped around the clear bottom bell. Very light and I am not going to cry like I did when I inadvertently left my beautiful, tilting, very expensive one behind somewhere in Peru.
2. I bought a Pentax analogue spot meter several years ago when I started out to learn the Zone System. Some years later I am still learning the Zone system (I must be, and I have tons of books on the subject to prove it) but the meter itself is great and I would replace it quickly if I ever left it behind somewhere.
3. Have bought and used most of the dark cloth options and I now use the Cambo binocular attachment for the great majority of my work. It's a little bulky but more than worth it. At least it doesn't start blowing around in a wind. I also have a huge, old black t-shirt stuffed in the bottom of my bag for those times that I want to use a dark cloth. (Note to self...wash that stinky thing!)
4. I use an old Lowepro backpack that I have removed all the silly dividers from. It works, that is about all I can say about it. Actually I use it because it has nice strong straps to hold my tripod. But I do like the idea about using a wheeled luggage carrier. I have an old one that I could mount big bike wheels to. Hmmm.
5. I contact print all my negatives and then scan them with my $120 Epson V500. The fact that most of my negatives weren't worth bringing home, let alone printing or scanning, doesn't deter me at all. After all, I tell myself that I am learning. :p
6. A 77mm B&W linear polarizer from KEH and a 77mm Tiffen Yellow filter. One step up ring for my lens. I actually bought the filters for my 645Nii but they work great for large format.
7. A nice Pentax 20 inch cloth covered shutter release cable. Very nice, a bit pricey, and the only one I have ever owned that hasn't kinked...yet.
7. (#2) Lens wrench?? You mean the screwdriver? (Hint, never buy a large format lens or shutter from me if you have the silly opinion that scratches and dings do not build character in a lens.) Actually I now own a nice SK Grimes adjustable spanner. A great and wonderful thing and I highly recommend it if you can afford it!!
8. My lens wraps are old socks. (I do wash them first). Lens cases take up too much room, lens wrap is too expensive, bubble wrap blows away in the slightest mountain breeze. Actually I rarely carry any spare lenses since I usually use a three way convertible Symmar. I do carry the socks though. I can use them to store the parts of the lens when I convert it and they have come in handy as actual socks on a couple hikes.
9. I never carry negative sleeves with me. When at home I do use Print File sleeves.
10. Likewise, I never carry Ansel Adams books on the trail since they are a bit heavy. I do own a few, as well as hundreds of others, but I leave them home as well.

Other things you did not mention. Probably because you have them already.
11. Lots of film holders. I am not too picky about the brand right now, I love them one and all. If I do run across one that seems to leak light I toss it in a box for next year's E-Bay fire sale. Always full disclosure, of course.
12. An extra box of film. I am certainly not a pro, not even a particularly competent amateur, so I still shoot a lot of Arista EDU 100, though I am beginning to graduate to Arista EDU 400 now. I do love the big boy's film, it is very nice and very high quality, but I just can't afford to use much of it unless I get it very cheap, which means it is usually expired. Arista EDU is a whole lot less expensive than Ilford and WAYYYYY less than Kodak, God Bless their souls.
13. A few black, plastic, film sleeves and an empty film box in case I want to unload film from a holder.
13. (You can have two 7s, I can have two 13s :D) A changing bag. I usually carry my old Arista bag since it is inexpensive to replace and big enough that I can actually reload film holders in it.
14. A lens shade. This is more valuable to me than my filters. I did not spend a bunch of money on it. The one for my Symmar is a piece off an old, heavy, cardboard map tube that fits nicely over the lens exterior. I cut it back just to the point where it does not vignette and spray painted it flat black inside...and outside too come to think of it.

So, there you have it, the hobbyist's list. All kidding aside, have fun.

[John Kasaian]

All kidding aside, have fun.
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