Zone Vl 5x4 NEW....do I use it or get a user and just look at it?

[Martin Courtenay-Blake]

Some years ago I bought a new Zone Vl 5x4 camera from a UK dealer who had never even put it on display. It is the original Fred Picker designed one with the gold plated hardware etc.. I take it out of it's box now and then to flex the bellows. It has never had a lens or dark slide fitted, or been on a tripod. I suppose it's about as mint as it gets. My dilemma is do I finally take the plunge and use this thing or buy a used MPP or similar and just appreciate the Zone Vl as a beautiful object. What would any of you guys do in the same circumstance? I'm not necessarily saying I'll heed any advice given but it would be interesting to see what you would do. I will admit that I do find beauty in well engineered objects. If I were lucky enough to get hold of a mint Alpa 10 or 11 series camera I'd probably put it in a case and just look at it. Just wondering if there's any one else out there like me.

[selmslie]

I have had one for a long time, use it occasionally. I even bought a V750 to scan the negatives after I converted to digital printing.

With light use it should last the rest of your life.

Although I prefer medium format for its convenience, there is no point in letting it go unused.

[Ken Lee]

I would ask an appraiser or someone at an antiques auction house. In another 50 years, the value may be quite high, especially if it's got original packaging, paperwork, etc.

[Martin Courtenay-Blake]

It is still in it's original box Ken complete with original "typed" instruction sheet. I must admit I am tempted to start using it. Just had a thought Christie's, the auction people, hold specific photographic equipment sales. They are not limited to old equipment only. Perhaps I'll check them out, you never know may fetch a goodprice and enable me to get an alternative more suited to the scenery and conditions of the great Scottish outdoors.

[Brian Ellis]

There were so many of the Zone VI cameras sold in their various iterations none of which were ever "cult" cameras that I'd be surprised if it's worth significantly more (i.e. greater than maybe a 10%-15% premium) than any Zone VI camera that's in excellent condition. Zone VI cameras today seem to be bought to use, not as collectors items. But you could always find out by putting it on ebay and setting a very high reserve that nobody will meet, then see what kind of bids you get. As for 50 years down the road, who knows? But do you care? How old are you?

[Jim Jones]

Once it has the slightest sign of use, it will never be such a treasure again. Perhaps there are other brands and formats of absolutely new in box older cameras in ebay completed auctions to determine the premium on such condition. If selling, Brian's suggestion of a high reserve for the first offering sounds wise.

[Drew Bedo]

Martin:

Ten years ago I bought a wista built ZoneVI at a camera show. It was a "user" in that it came with lenses, film holders and all the other kit for shooting, all in a LowPro back pack. I got it from the original owner as his field set up. I use it.

Yours however, is different. It is The Zone VI, designed by Fred Picker and hand-built by Richard Ritter. It is "mint, as-new, in the box" as the collectors like to say. I would keep it that way. There is no real collectors market for this camera at this time but some day there will be (by "someday: I mean a very long time).

Whenever that time comes, mint and in the box is what collectors will prize the most. Unlike our wonderful digital widgets, these cameras can last a long time. Beyond value, we are less "owners" of these cameras,and rather stewards of finely crafted instruments. Yes, I do use mine, but I also feel that I am keeping it safe for the next photographer who will care for it.

If you are doing LF photogrpahy, get a camera to use and keep the Zone VI mint. Enjoy them both for what they are.

[Peter Lewin]

Since this is a thread that is purely about opinions, with no "premium" for experience, and no hard facts on either side of the question, I'll throw in my vote for "use it." The last time I "channeled" Fred Picker, whose ghost remembers me well from the workshop I took with him up in Vermont some 30 (?) years ago, he was adamant that his cameras were made to be used. To be a little less facetious, I agree with the post made earlier that there will probably never be a real collector's market for the Richard Ritter/Fred Picker cameras, any more than for the other ZoneVI equipment that I am still happy to use in my darkroom (enlarger head, compensating timer, film washer, etc.). Given that you are unlikely to make any significant money selling it (beyond its value as a very good field camera), you are down to the question of whether you personally will get more satisfaction using it, or putting it on a shelf and looking at it. From what I read (since I don't have the wealth to be a car collector), those lucky enough to own exotic cars (either new or historical) enjoy driving them, rather than merely holding onto them. Of course to put my thoughts into context, I'm the one who early on took the money from my first raise, and deciding between buying an Ansel Adams print or a view camera, chose to buy the view camera. The AA print would have been the far better investment, but how do you put a price on 30 years of enjoying large format photography?

[Pawlowski6132]

Seems kinda weird to just sit there and stare at a camera while fondling it occasionally. What are you ultimately going to do with it??

[Eric Biggerstaff]

I have that Zone VI, and use it all the time. The later versions, which mine is one, are very sturdy and excellent cameras. I love it! A tad bit heavy perhaps but solid as a brick. Sure, over time the gold plating is wearing a bit thin and I needed to put a new bellows on it, but it is a great camera to use. It seems a shame to not get it out and use it for the purpose it was designed. Load some film and get it out there making images, the camera will be happy and so will you.

[John Jarosz]

Even if it becomes relatively valuable in 50+ years, how valuable could it possibly get? It's not exactly a mainstream collectible. It's a fine camera and it deserves to be used. You'll enjoy using it.

[Joseph Dickerson]

Martin:

Ten years ago I bought a wista built ZoneVI at a camera show. It was a "user" in that it came with lenses, film holders and all the other kit for shooting, all in a LowPro back pack. I got it from the original owner as his field set up. I use it.

Yours however, is different. It is The Zone VI, designed by Fred Picker and hand-built by Richard Ritter. It is "mint, as-new, in the box" as the collectors like to say. I would keep it that way. There is no real collectors market for this camera at this time but some day there will be (by "someday: I mean a very long time).

Whenever that time comes, mint and in the box is what collectors will prize the most. Unlike our wonderful digital widgets, these cameras can last a long time. Beyond value, we are less "owners" of these cameras,and rather stewards of finely crafted instruments. Yes, I do use mine, but I also feel that I am keeping it safe for the next photographer who will care for it.

If you are doing LF photogrpahy, get a camera to use and keep the Zone VI mint. Enjoy them both for what they are.

Ritter or Wisner? I seem to remember that Ron made a lot of the Zone VI cameras for Fred, at least the early ones that came after the Wista version.
Wasn't there also a version built by Horseman?

JD

[Gem Singer]

I don't know if this applies to cameras, but I was always told: "if you don't use it, you'll loose it".

Zone VI cameras with gold plated hardware were the last ones that Picker offered before selling his company to Calumet.

Earlier Zone VI cameras were made by Wisner and had spirit lacquered polished brass hardware. Wisner and Picker eventually parted company, and
Zone VI and Wisner became two separate companies.

The original Zone VI cameras were wooden Wista field cameras with a tripod mount that was modified to Pickers' specifications.

[Peter Gomena]

The more nicks, scuffs and little dings I get in my Zone VI, the better I like it. It's my camera, not a collector's item. There's a patina of age and use I find appealing. It's a good, sturdy camera that, with a little care, will last me the rest of my days.

Yes, a mint-in-box model will demand a premium. To what end? If you bought it as an investment, it's not one that's likely to return a big premium in your lifetime. There are too many good "users" out there for people who want to actually use one, including the gold-plated models. My bet is that while your example may be mint, there also are a lot of really good ones out there that have seen only a little use.

Peter Gomena

[Robert Hall]

If you had a woman, willing and beautiful, sitting next to you, would you just stare at her?

[C. D. Keth]

You'll get more value in he next 50 years by using it than it will gain in appreciation.

[Jonathan Barlow]

If it were an 8x10 in that condition, you could expect $2000-2500 USD on eBay. An unused 4x5? Maybe a thousand US dollars.

Of course if you hold onto it long enough, it might be worth more after you're dead.

[Peter Lewin]

If you had a woman, willing and beautiful, sitting next to you, would you just stare at her?
Of course the proper answer to your rhetorical question is: no, I would use that Zone VI camera to take some pictures, and post them in the image sharing forum, possibly in the "Nudes" thread...

[Robert Hall]

Ding Ding. We have a winner! :)

[AJ Edmondson]

Since we're just throwing around opinions... I would say use it. I have a Wisner Tech Field (4x5) that I have been using for 20+ years and it still looks pretty near new (I do take care of my equipment) and, since I bought it to use it I am satisfied with my decision. I can agree that the Zone VI Cameras were beautiful but - to me, they are still beautiful with some signs of usage and they do function quite well!

[Martin Courtenay-Blake]

If you had a woman, willing and beautiful, sitting next to you, would you just stare at her?

I like this sentiment Robert. I think the general concensus is coming down on the use it side. I must admit I don't really like the idea of keeping it for so long only my son may benefit from it's potential future value. The reason I never got around to using it is that I bought a bucket load of older lenses but didn't have any lens boards for them. I intended to make my own as they are so simple for this model but just never got round to it. Well it was made to take photographs so I guess that's what it'll do. Thanks for all your opinions guys.

[Joseph Dickerson]

I like this sentiment Robert. I think the general concensus is coming down on the use it side. I must admit I don't really like the idea of keeping it for so long only my son may benefit from it's potential future value. The reason I never got around to using it is that I bought a bucket load of older lenses but didn't have any lens boards for them. I intended to make my own as they are so simple for this model but just never got round to it. Well it was made to take photographs so I guess that's what it'll do. Thanks for all your opinions guys.

Make him get his own...at least that's my stand! :p

JD

[Ari]

Put a tiny scratch on it, and go out and use it.
Fondling is only for consenting adults.

[Bob Salomon]

"The more nicks, scuffs and little dings I get in my Zone VI, the better I like it. It's my camera, not a collector's item. There's a patina of age and use I find appealing"

When we were the Rimowa distributor and sold their aluminum luggage the slogan was that
"every case tells a story"
They all scuff and dent differently so no two are alike over time.

[Robert Hall]

Put a tiny scratch on it, and go out and use it.
Fondling is only for consenting adults.

RE: My first post. :)

[Kuzano]

So.... What I hear you saying is that all you've ever done with this camera has been "foreplay"

How frustrating!

Are you ever going to stick it on top of a tripod and "bust it's cherry"?

And when you do, will you post the video on YOUtube... It'll definitely go viral very fast.

[Drew Bedo]

[QUOTE=Drew Bedo;There is no real collectors market for this camera at this time but some day there will be (by "someday: I mean a very long time). Whenever that time comes, mint and in the box is what collectors will prize the most. Unlike our wonderful digital widgets, these cameras can last a long time. Beyond value, we are less "owners" of these cameras,and rather stewards of finely crafted instruments. Yes, I do use mine, but I also feel that I am keeping it safe for the next photographer who will care for it.

If you are doing LF photography, get a camera to use and keep the Zone VI mint. Enjoy them both for what they are.[/
QUOTE]

Well sure, this camera was built to be used, and it can do the job and stand up to the work.

The point I was trying to make is that this one example is still MINT and in-the-box. The owner is in a position to acquire another camera to take to the field from time-to-time. My feeling is that we are only stewards of this gear. This one piece is nice enough to preserve for the future. The tangible value in terms of money and investment over 50+ years is almost nothing. In fifty years, my 4x5 Zone VI will look as antique as my 1930s era Kodak 2-D does now. However the camera in question could still be new-in-the-box in 2062 . . .and we'll all be dead.

It is my opinion and just my opinion) that this camera should just be stored for now.

Respectful cheers to all.

[Kuzano]

[QUOTE=Drew Bedo;There is no real collectors market for this camera at this time but some day there will be (by "someday: I mean a very long time). Whenever that time comes, mint and in the box is what collectors will prize the most. Unlike our wonderful digital widgets, these cameras can last a long time. Beyond value, we are less "owners" of these cameras,and rather stewards of finely crafted instruments. Yes, I do use mine, but I also feel that I am keeping it safe for the next photographer who will care for it.

With respectful Cheers to all.

And Therein lies the basic reason for my rather ribald post prior to yours.

I am near violently opposed to the whole practice of "Collecting" in general. The only thing that "collecting" any object of desire has done is practice a seriously selfish opportunity to raise the price of entry into all sorts of endeavor. "Collecting" items serve NO REAL Purpose other than to line the pockets of the individuals who indulge in the practice. The practice of "trophy brides" is the most serious insult to women to exist in our society, and vice versa to the women who practice the collecting of "washboard abs" moron men.

I cannot tell you how many times I have been priced out of certain "marques" in the collector car market, as well as priced out of very nice photographic gear by idiots with too much money. I've owned some very collectible automobiles over the years, and never acquired them with the idea of investment potential. Every one was refined back to restored condition to drive and to enjoy. Never entered one in a car show, or fought with a concourse judge about points dismissed in the competition.

The camera in question was designed and assembled by known people in the industry.... To do one thing, and do it well. Capture images full of soul that one could exhibit their individual spirit with.

The OP might just as well go looking for a Trophy Bride, for as much as this camera will serve him in the future. Collectibles... BAH!!! Get On It and Ride It!

[ic-racer]

I don't think there is any kind of 'collector' market for 1980s view cameras. In fact, I don't think there is much of a 'collector' market for any wood view camera. If there were, you might want to sell the Zone VI and get a Chamonix or Shen-Hao and pocket the rest of the money.

[David Lobato]

Please use it. Life is too short. Don't leave yourself open to deathbed regrets. Or else it will wind up in a flea market and eventually kludged into a table lamp, or some other unspeakable abomination. Oh the indignity from not using it. Collect good pictures instead!

[Drew Bedo]

Kuzano:

I understand every point you make. I agree with about all of what you say. If I was not visually impaired the Leica M-3 on the shelf would be full of film and in a camera bag. It cost me ~$250 in 1977 and I had no thought to sell it off when an Asian buyer offered a grand for it in the late '90s.

A collector I know has two ULF studio cameras fully restored in his private display area at home. At one time I had access to ULF sized film and developing when I worked at a clinic in medical imaging. When I suggested that we could expose a few sheets and run them through the darkroom’s automatic developing system, he had a panic attack and broke out in a cold sweat! He actually got sick at the thought of making photographs with his cameras!

And there it is: To preserve a camera for the future or us it doing photography.

The Zone VI in question would not suffer by being used as it was designed. It is not particularly valuable as an object. It does not have an historically significant provenance. If it had been used since the mid-1980s I would say continue to use it.

Because it is in pristine, un-used condition—with the original box, my thought is to preserve it as-is for some future photographer. We can disagree on this and in the end the sun will still come up tomorrow for us to photograph; And that is what brings us all together on this forum.

Cheers

[Kevin Crisp]

I came across a NOS Deardorff 5X7. And it looked it. I never thought about doing anything other than putting it to use. It was worth maybe $300 more than a used one. I don't regret the decision and since I've taken care of it the camera still looks great. So I say use it.

[Drew Bedo]

Kevin:

So, you paid a premiuim of $300 more than an already-been-used one because . . .?

[jhulton]

I have an original one that is in fine condition that you can buy for $500 or so depending on shipping. Also a Nikon 210mm and lots of accessories
jhulton@gmail.com

[CP Goerz]

OP-Since you have enough money to buy a second camera why not buy a beater Zone VI and actually use it and keep the pretty one in the box.

[Len Middleton]

Some years ago I bought a new Zone Vl 5x4 camera from a UK dealer who had never even put it on display. It is the original Fred Picker designed one with the gold plated hardware etc..

My dilemma is do I finally take the plunge and use this thing or ...

I will admit that I do find beauty in well engineered objects. If I were lucky enough to get hold of a mint Alpa 10 or 11 series camera I'd probably put it in a case and just look at it. Just wondering if there's any one else out there like me.

Martin.

I too like things done well, so in that regard you are not alone.

The question seems to become whether you make decisions on an emotional or more rational basis...

Having done some expensive hobbies (relative to income) in the past, I do not feel it is right to question anyone else's hobbies, including collectors.

If you are going to make it as a rational decision (or justify it rationally), then you need to look both at the expected value when you may choose to sell it and the opportunity costs of things you forego during the time (including time value of money) you hold onto it waiting for the value to go up...

If you have difficulty in making the final decision, then you might want to search your pocket for a coin...

That may prove to be as rational as anything else.

Good luck with your dilemma,

Len

[Martin Courtenay-Blake]

Definately some polarised views on this. I actually have an old Kodak half plate (ex RAF) I am putting into working order with every intention to use, although it is a bit of a brute. In the meantime I'll start making lensboards and install a few lenses for the Zone Vl and take it from there.

I'm sure there is a name for this attitude towards things like cameras, watches, hi-fi equipment etc. I have a precision engineering background and I suppose I just like things that are put together well and do the job they were intended to do as well as possible. To listen to music I use Krell/Martin Logan/Naim equipment because I believe they were the best I could afford in terms of musical performance and build quality. The Krell amp and ML speakers were 2nd user as are most of the heap of cameras and lenses I have accumulated over the years....I just don't seem to be able to part with any of them because I like the way they were made compared to my digital SLRs. I did own an Alpa in the dark distant past (a used 9D with Macro Switar). I used it a lot but loved it's engineering as well...it just worked beautifully.

Back to the Zone Vl I guess I'll be expected to post it's "first light" pic when it's taken.........unless someone chooses to convince me otherwise.

[Shootar401]

Personally I can't see the use in having something if I can't use it. I've buy NIB NOS things all the time and rip open the packaging to mess with it. I don't see why you would have something and not use it regardless of the condition or value.

But that's just me.

[Lightbender]

I would ask an appraiser or someone at an antiques auction house. In another 50 years, the value may be quite high, especially if it's got original packaging, paperwork, etc.

No. The Zone VI is a user. It's not antique. It's not even highly desirable as a user. Only the things that are collectable now will be collectable in 50 years. There are only a limited amount of people 'collecting' camera equipment and that number is dwindling.

Put it up for sale for a reasonable premium. (+25% above average price?) If it sells, great.

[Mark Barendt]

If you had a woman, willing and beautiful, sitting next to you, would you just stare at her?

That thought takes me back to my teens. ;)

[Tim Meisburger]

I think you should shoot it. Take it out in a field, load the shotgun with double-ought buck and have at it. Then shoot the remains with the half-plate and collodian. That would be art!

If we keep all that old junk around we will put all the camera-makers out of business.:rolleyes:

[Kevin Crisp]

Drew: I didn't pay an extra $300 for it on account of its NOS condition. My point was that being in that rare condition would make it worth only about $300 more than a user. As I recall I got it for $750 to $780, which was a decent price for a user. My point is that if a Deardorff of that age in that condition doesn't command a huge premium, then the probability of the future value of a Zone VI being a big help in retirement isn't very likely. So my conclusion was use it, and take care of it.

There are certain cameras where NOS condition, box, paperwork, etc. would make the item quite valuable. If you had an M3 in that condition, for example.

[RichardRitter]

Since there were over 4 thousand camera made yours being a collector no. There are a few cameras that would fall into that area. The first two proto types made by Wisner I have one, second one was sold as a production camera. Then there were 5 Pear wood cameras only 3 were sold these were to mark the 20th year of Zone VI, and one all black camera with gold hardware sits on a shelf in my office.

So use it and enjoy it.

[Martin Courtenay-Blake]

Thanks Richard for adding to this discussion, which I didn't expect to arouse as much interest as it has. I have to admit that monetry value wasn't really a consideration when I put up the post. I was really just wondering what other members would do in the same circumstances. I had always really intended to use it sometime but as each year crept by it just seemed a pity to subject such an attractive object to the rigours of the Scottish weather and the idea of getting a "more suitable" user seemed quite attractive. Well you and a few others have made up my mind so it comes out of the box and will see first light shortly.

Thanks to all who contributed and again particurly to you Richard for taking interest in one of your progeny.

[Jonathan Barlow]

Drew: I didn't pay an extra $300 for it on account of its NOS condition. My point was that being in that rare condition would make it worth only about $300 more than a user. As I recall I got it for $750 to $780, which was a decent price for a user. My point is that if a Deardorff of that age in that condition doesn't command a huge premium, then the probability of the future value of a Zone VI being a big help in retirement isn't very likely. So my conclusion was use it, and take care of it.

There are certain cameras where NOS condition, box, paperwork, etc. would make the item quite valuable. If you had an M3 in that condition, for example.


I have a 1952 Deardorff V8 made for the US Air Force. When I first removed it from its original case, I could tell that it hadn't been used since its military service. Nice and clean. A real time capsule with just the right faint musty scent of wood & metal trapped in a case for so long. But I use it.

There is a temptation to sell it. One in well used condition recently sold on eBay for $4800. But I should keep it and use it.

[Martin Courtenay-Blake]

Well circumstances change and so does the fate of my beautiful Zone VI 4x5. I am having to step back from film photography for a while so I have decided that the camera should be sold on to someone who will be able to put it to good use. As I still have my old Kodak half plate I hope to pick up large format photography again when circumstances allow. I'll put an ad. in the for sale section later today, along with some pics.,which I hope you may wish to peruse.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I would sell it, or auction with a good reserve. Why? Camera furniture with gold-plated hardware has no place in the field. Despite what Fred said, he sold something that appeals to vanity. Let someone else enjoy it so that you can get out there and work.

[Jonathan Barlow]

Drew: I didn't pay an extra $300 for it on account of its NOS condition. My point was that being in that rare condition would make it worth only about $300 more than a user. As I recall I got it for $750 to $780, which was a decent price for a user. My point is that if a Deardorff of that age in that condition doesn't command a huge premium, then the probability of the future value of a Zone VI being a big help in retirement isn't very likely. So my conclusion was use it, and take care of it.

There are certain cameras where NOS condition, box, paperwork, etc. would make the item quite valuable. If you had an M3 in that condition, for example.



If it were a new-old-stock Zone VI 8x10, it would command a hefty premium on eBay. A 4x5, perhaps $200-300.

[Bill Burk]

Hi Martin Courtenay-Blake,

Sorry you have to step away, my advice is that a NOS camera belongs in the hands of someone who will use it.

Hopefully the new owner will be someone who can learn photography on it, and it would spare that person from having to also learn the art of camera maintenance.

[Jim Jones]

A collectable NOS may be better off in the hands of a collector or investor than as a learner's camera. First cameras, like first cars, should be expendable.

[bob carnie]

Hi Ken ,
I have one of these Zone VI cameras fitted with four lenses in mint condition , It is one made by Wisner, I believe there were only a bunch made.
Do you have any thoughts on this series of camera.
It is indeed quite beautiful, any backstory on this would be appreciated.
I am thinking of a trade with someone for a Nikon digital back to convert to Infared but have no idea on pricing as I rarely sell anything, only purchase.

Bob

I would ask an appraiser or someone at an antiques auction house. In another 50 years, the value may be quite high, especially if it's got original packaging, paperwork, etc.