Tray or Tank for film?

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

I just developed my first 4x5 negatives last night. Did it by hand in a tray. Many small scratches, when I looked at them today.

I found some stainless steel hangers and 2 Kodak tanks made out of thick hard black rubber, these hold 1/2 gal of solution each. Today I developed 10 4x5 negatives at the same time. No scratches. Once I loaded the hangers I did not have to touch the negative again. 10 fit into the tank, I think that is the max, but 10 was all I shot today, so that worked out very well for me. I transferred them from one to the next solution all at once. It worked very well. I used the 2 Kodak tanks for the developer and for the fixer. Then while the wash was going on, I cleaned them up and used them for the PermaWash and fot the Photo-flow. Other solutions were in cheap plastic food containers. After the Photo-Flo dunk I left them in the hangers to dry. It really was easy.

I'm sure this topic has been beat to death, but I found the tank to really work great. Developer was single shot. Fixer will last for a week or two. Stop bath, I mixed a gallon and will use until exhausted. PermaWash I used as single shot, unsure about saving that one, Photo-flow was single shot, unsure about saving Photo-flow.

Any suggestions?
Bill

[Bill_1856]

Trays for light shooters, tanks for commercial volume.

[Pawlowski6132]

Suggestions for what?

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Suggestions, for any way to improve, any comments on how to do it better. This was my first time, I was figuring it out as I went. Is there a better way? It worked really well for me this time.
Thanks, Bill

[vinny]

ansel explains tanks/hangers in his book The Negative. don't leave them in the hangers to dry. print some of those negs with clear skies to make sure you aren't getting surge marks from agitation before you go an make a career out of it. other than that it HAS been covered to death.

[Thebes]

I'm curious, what kind of scratches are you (or others) getting in trays?
I often get tiny, hairline scratches on my Ilford films on the base side. These don't show in my epson flatbed scans or in contact prints or enlargements with a diffuse light source.
But I worry that one day they might show under a condenser enlarger or a different scanner.
I soup them emulsion side UP, never managed a successful batch emulsion down. I've only ever been able to get them this relatively scratch-free after watching a series of you-tube videos on tray developing which I found very helpful.

I've previously had good luck with a combiplan tank but no longer use it since I've started developing by inspection.
I've thought about trying tanks and hangers but always worried about chem volume, surge marks, etc... also I can't recall reading about anyone doing dbi with them but it seems like it should work.

[jk0592]

Two weeks ago I developed 4x5 negatives for the first time. I still have too much trouble loading a Jobo 2509 reel with 6 4x5 sheets for the Jobo 2521 tank. So I resorted to developing by hand in trays, which isn't so bad after all. I found the 4x5 negatives were very undisciplined in the 8x10 trays, as I wasn't very good at keeping them well aligned in the slippery liquids. They rotated individually in all directions. Hopefully, next time will be easier. I am considering acquiring 5x7 trays to prevent the disturbing rotations.

[welly]

I develop my sheets in trays. I never really found I was getting scratches much when developing more than one at a time but was always worried about getting them. I bought a Slosher from the Photo Formulary. I can develop 6 sheets at a time, they stay in the slosher from start to finish and no sheet ever touches another one through the entire process. I get absolutely no scratches whatsoever.

It probably uses a bit more chemicals that most tank processes but chemicals are cheap so I don't let that worry me much.

Grab one of these if you want to continue to develop in trays - http://stores.photoformulary.com/-strse-241/Sheet-Film-Developing-Tray/Detail.bok

[John O'Connell]

I've tried tanks, tubes, and trays. Agreed that they've been done to death. But . . . Murphy's Law strikes in developing sheet film in a way that it does not strike roll film. I've tossed my tubes and tanks and hold fast to the rule of developing one sheet at a time in trays with fresh developer each time. Too many scratches and surge marks and ruined sheets over the years to do otherwise for me.

[BetterSense]

Tanks gave me surge marks, so I gave them up despite loving them otherwise.

Trays for me, emulsion up. If I'm careful I don't get scratches. With tanks, I'm careful and still get the occasional surge marks.

[Bill Burk]

I'd rather develop my film in a swimming pool filled with razor blades.

Oh, right. That's what I do.

[Vaughn]

I'd rather develop my film in a swimming pool filled with razor blades. Oh, right. That's what I do.

I find that adding crocs into the pool really help with the agitation (sharks don't seem to like the chlorine).

[cyrus]

You're right - this topic has been beaten to death, over and over again.
But for whatever it is worth, especially if you just want to not use up a lot of developer in a tank, I suggest taking one of those hangers, bending the handle so that you can lay it flat on the bottom of a tray full of chemicals. The handle can then be use to agitate without puttting your fingers in the soup. Oh, and no surge marks.

Here's the picture I've posted here before on this topic
83036

[Chuck P.]

I develop my sheets in trays. I never really found I was getting scratches much when developing more than one at a time but was always worried about getting them. I bought a Slosher from the Photo Formulary. I can develop 6 sheets at a time, they stay in the slosher from start to finish and no sheet ever touches another one through the entire process. I get absolutely no scratches whatsoever.

It probably uses a bit more chemicals that most tank processes but chemicals are cheap so I don't let that worry me much.

Grab one of these if you want to continue to develop in trays - http://stores.photoformulary.com/-strse-241/Sheet-Film-Developing-Tray/Detail.bok

What is the general agitation scheme when using one of these slogher trays?

[BetterSense]

Has anyone used brush development? I have heard from astrophotographers that it's the only way to get perfectly even development, but I don't know what kind of brush or technique they use.

[welly]

What is the general agitation scheme when using one of these slogher trays?

I basically raise and lower the entire tray front and rear up and down a little bit, once every minute for 10 times and then give it a little shake from side to side. This seems to be working for me. My developed sheets look to be evenly developed anyway so I'm content with this agitation scheme. I must say, I'm getting the best, most evenly developed and scratch free negatives with the slosher that I've ever had and I've tried the Paterson Orbital, standard tray developing (shuffling multiple sheets) and Jobo tank processing.

[JMB]

I am quite new at this myself. But last week I developed a single sheet of 5x7 film in a simple plastic tank that I bought it China. I found that I could make a very sharp negative by rocking the tank very slightly every three seconds or so. And I seem to have obtained very complete and even development. I can't say for the moment, however, whether I believe that I could have obtained the same sharpness in a tray. In the past I have had problems with small scratches on even single sheets in a tray with soft emulsion films. Since I also have some interest in x-ray film development (which apparently involves greater risk of scratches) I plan to investigate tank development more fully. I also found it a very pleasant way to development film.

[ROL]

I basically raise and lower the entire tray front and rear up and down a little bit, once every minute for 10 times and then give it a little shake from side to side.

...to Chubby Checkers' "The Twist"?

[ROL]

What is the general agitation scheme when using one of these slogher trays?

welly's interesting, yet decidedly unorthodox, technique aside (which I may, dare I say must, try), agitation methods may vary with the design of the particular "slosher" and/or developer. Mine is a basket made of thin stainless steel wire, and I have found that the only reliable "general agitation scheme", with Pyro, XTOL, D-76, Rodinal, TMAX RS, WD2D+, HC-110, Technidol (RIP), and PyroCat is constant agitation. Constant being defined as lifting alternate corners of the tray and dropping sharply to the sink, about once per second. I have tried all other agitation schemes (i.e., every 10s, 15s, 30s, etc.), except apparently for welly's hokey pokey, and found them lacking in consistency. But film testing, as always, is important to discover, precisely what times work best for each film, given any particular technique.

And it bears repeating not to skimp on developer with sloshers, if consistent results are to be achieved.

[mdm]

I use lunch boxes/plastic freezer containers for 5x7 with D23, and for pyrocat I like BTZS style tubes with continuous agitation or semi standing agitation. Trays are quick and easy because you can do many sheets at a time and develop by inspection, which is fun, but it takes some experience to get right.

[Pawlowski6132]

Has anyone used brush development? I have heard from astrophotographers that it's the only way to get perfectly even development, but I don't know what kind of brush or technique they use.

I used it for awhile with my 8x10 negatives and pyro development. I believe I was also developing by inspection. I had two different types of brushes: I used the sponge paint-thingies we've all seen and a hog-hair brush I got from a art store.

[arthur berger]

The simplest and most consistent method aside from a Jobo is to use a slosher or rack in a tray method. Very even development and reasonably priced to buy or make yourself from plexi.

[welly]

...to Chubby Checkers' "The Twist"?

Pretty much! It is a performance!

[welly]

welly's interesting, yet decidedly unorthodox, technique aside (which I may, dare I say must, try), agitation methods may vary with the design of the particular "slosher" and/or developer. Mine is a basket made of thin stainless steel wire, and I have found that the only reliable "general agitation scheme", with Pyro, XTOL, D-76, Rodinal, TMAX RS, WD2D+, HC-110, Technidol (RIP), and PyroCat is constant agitation. Constant being defined as lifting alternate corners of the tray and dropping sharply to the sink, about once per second. I have tried all other agitation schemes (i.e., every 10s, 15s, 30s, etc.), except apparently for welly's hokey pokey, and found them lacking in consistency. But film testing, as always, is important to discover, precisely what times work best for each film, given any particular technique.

And it bears repeating not to skimp on developer with sloshers, if consistent results are to be achieved.

Totally agree. I started using 1.5l of chemicals in my 11x14" tray with my slosher to ensure the sheets were well and truly submerged. I've been experimenting using less so see if I can be a bit more economical and had success with 1l.

I believe I'm finally getting good results with my developing but the problem I've got is I have nothing to compare my developing with, as I've never seen anyone else's developed negatives! Mine could be truly awful but they seem to be scanning fine and don't look "thin".

I'm mostly using Rodinal - I wasn't aware it was more a constant agitation developer so might try out your technique and see if anything differs.

[ROL]

I'm mostly using Rodinal - I wasn't aware it was more a constant agitation developer so might try out your technique and see if anything differs.

Nor am I. I inadvertently overstated the case with Rodinal, which is pretty much a bombproof developer, but I am inconstant. I have standardized my slosher tray technique with all developers. One only needs to adjust exposure and development time by film testing. Although Rodinal is still one of my favorite developers for fine grained 120 films (continuous first minute, every 30 seconds therafter), I experience no advantage over PMK Pyro or XTOL for my most used sheet films. Sorry for the confusion.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Thebes, I looked today and the scratches were from the film edges scratching the emulsion. I was using a 8x10 tray, and the 4x5 films were getting away from me. I'll look for the you-tube video.

Second time around I used a tank and hangers.
I don't know enough to recognize surge marks on a negative, but when I print I suspect that they will be linear smudges from using the same agitation motion in the tank.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

cyrus, THANKS, that does look like something I can do.
Bill

[Bill Burk]

Unless you are going for edge effects/enhanced sharpness that comes with reduced agitation / stand development...

Todd - Zakia shows a graph that illustrates their assertion that 12 rocks a minute is optimum for tray agitation.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Bill, thanks, I think I want to try what Thebes posted, 4 negatives in holders, welded together, in a tray. 12 racks a minute sounds like a good idea, Someone actually experimented and published their results... 12 rocks a min.

[Randy]

To aid in keeping your 4X5 film from getting away from you in 8X10 trays, I lay a wooden yardstick (meter stick?) down flat and place the far end of each tray on the yardstick so that they are slightly elevated in the rear. That way, the film tends to slide toward the front of the tray, rather than just moving in all directions.

As for avoiding surge marks in hangers, when I used to process many (40+ sheets in 4-sheet hangers in...?3.5 gal stainless tanks?) agitation was done by very slowly lifting all the hangers (in a rack) out, tilting to one side for a few seconds, then slowly lower back into the tank, then slowly out and tilt to the other side, then submerge again into the tank.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Randy, The yardstick makes sense, I'll use it when I'm only developing 1 or two negs.

The Kodak 4x5 tank and hangers worked very well, but now I learn about the possibility of surge marks.I was just lifting and lowering, straight up and down, lifted about 1 inch each time. I will be looking for surge marks.

I have a bunch of 4x5 hangers, and a buddy who is a master welder. I'm going to have him rig up 4 of them for tray processing. That looks like a really good idea. Keep it simple.
This Forum really helps a Newbie get off to the right start. I watched You-Tube on tray developing, that guy really does a good job explaining it. His method was much better than my first attempt. I saw lots of ways to improve.
Thanks everyone for the ideas.
Bill

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

I saw Beseler Drum processing this weekend, and it was fantastic!!! Pat down in Mobile, had me down and showed me (brought back memories, 'OH' how I remembered the smell of stop bath) how he develops his film. The drum rotates constantly, so it is even development, it's done with the lights on, very nice, NO SCRATCHES... It was a great way, and it only uses 10 ounces of chemical at a time??? Economical too!

We then printed a 11x14 and for the first time since the 70's I saw the image come up in the developer!!!!! It was 'Magical' again!

We put in a long day, and Pat helped me with the many questions I had about the cameras and shooting. Saint Adams Zone System and the light meter, it worked too!
We even got the 8x10 out and shot with it. It was like soldiers operating a 2-man gun. That thing is a beast!
Then, film developing (his T-Max), I'm still looking for the grain???
Then printing one of the negatives we shot that day. I pestered him all day with endless questions, he has the patience of Jobe.

What he doesn't have is a stool in his DR??? I think that is essential, doesn't everyone use a stool in the DR?

It was a great day, I'm back, hooked again.
Thanks Pat,
Bill

[Brian Ellis]

Neither. Tubes. My opinion of course, others differ.