PDA

View Full Version : Your thoughts on the Sinar F



WayneStevenson
3-Nov-2012, 10:39
I am just wondering what everyone's thoughts are on this camera. I have the opportunity to purchase a kit and while it may not be a deal I can't refuse, I do think it would be worth considering. Though it's in another province so I can't get my hands on it to get a feel for it, or even see what it looks like. But am told it is in mint condition.

I shoot with my Calumet 4x5, and my Toyo Omega-View 4x5. My Calumet is great and rock-solid. But it's the CC4xx version without a graflok back. And doesn't work well with a 90mm.

My Toyo is great. I really love the fine focus control. But the swings and focus locks require me to disassemble and re-tighten them every now-and-then. Probably due to over-tighening. And I plan on getting a 6x17 film holder which makes that graflok back a necessity.

From what I hear about Sinar, is that they're rock solid, and require little maintenance. I assume they also have a graflok back?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Frank Petronio
3-Nov-2012, 10:57
The weak part of the Sinar F and the later F1 is the front standard. Which is also sold as the Sinar Accessory Standard... it has a clamp that allows you to clip it over the round rail - this clamp is plastic, or the housing for it is, and it can crack from abuse or brittleness. I've seen several do this so it isn't that odd, but sure, most are still in fine shape. You can always Duct tape it on in a pinch but in the words of our great leader, "It isn't optimal".

Some of the really old Fs have small rectangular tripod mounting blocks made from plastic that is now brittle as well. Hey it is 40-year old plastic, check out how those Barbies have aged if you want to see what happens!

And many of the cheap Sinar Fs were used by schools and overly eager students who abused them. The standards glide on Nylon inserts that were intended to be replaced as they wore out, and now many are. It's probably cheaper to simply buy another Sinar F than to get it professionally CLA'd.

All Sinars have "International" backs, which I think was a code word for Graflock when you're not Graflex ;-p Moot point since they've been out of business since the 70s.

I'm a fan of Sinars because they are decent and inexpensive with lots of available parts and options. But if you can swing a later and slightly more expensive Sinar F2 or an even better earlier Sinar Norma, you'll have a professional camera usable for a lifetime. A Sinar F will do pretty much the same thing but may leave you wanting.

Some of the better Cambos and Toyos (like the G) are also really fine cameras and excellent bargains, plus you can find plenty of bag bellows, rails, boards, etc. Horsemans with the "L" standard are great, heavy and inexpensive as well.

Sevo
3-Nov-2012, 11:02
Plus point for the F is that it ties into the Sinar system - I never sold any of mine, they all ended up as extra parts for the P2.

Leigh
3-Nov-2012, 11:50
Sinar offers a very complete system. They put a lot of thought into it, and it shows.

I have two F2 cameras, a 4x5 and an 8x10. Both are very solid and easy to use.
I would suggest opting for the later F2 series vs the F if you can afford it. More recent, less wear, etc.

- Leigh

Joseph Dickerson
3-Nov-2012, 15:39
Another voice for Sinar...F-1 in my case. I am careful, I hope without being anal, about my gear but I buy the stuff to shoot with, not to coddle. I've never had a problem.

Ever so often I find myself thinking I'd rather have the F-2 because of the separate locks for swing and shift. But my damn F-1 just won't break so I can justify an F-2 to the minister of finance.

BTW, the extra goodies on the F-2 do add a pound or two. Frank can probably tell us just how much...Frank?

As others have said, the Sinar system is extensive, nothing is ever obsolete and almost everything interchanges with almost everything else. For example, to make my F-1 just a tiny bit more compact for backpacking I use a Norma tripod mount that I bought from Frank some years ago rather than the original high profile one.

If the price and condition seem right go for it. Your Cambo and/or Toyo could easily sell for enough to offset the price of a Sinar. I'd wager that you'd not regret getting one.

JD

Cletus
3-Nov-2012, 17:08
Another +1 on the Sinars. F1 4x5, F2 8x10 user here. I haven't had them all that long and while I am reasonably careful with my cameras, I don't baby them and they get used hard. So far it looks like these babies can take about the worst I typically dish out without blinking. And that's in addition to all the other Sinar pluses - uber compatibility, ease of use, inexpensive, available parts, etc...

You could do worse.

Jonathan Barlow
3-Nov-2012, 22:56
US prices:

Sinar F 4x5: $300

Sinar F2 4x5: $500

Sinar P 4x5: $600

Sinar P 8x10: $800

Sinar P2 4x5: $700-900

Sinar P2 8x10: $1000-1500

Frank Petronio
3-Nov-2012, 23:04
Small sampling but

4x5 Norma $199/230/340/400/750/1150 (for lots of extras)

no 8x10s recently

Kind of ridiculous prices, I think it's the best of the lot. i should have picked up the $200 one for parts alone.

A pan tilt head sold for only $149 too. Silly - the Buy It Now fixed price listings are super high and the auction prices are peanuts.

Jonathan Barlow
3-Nov-2012, 23:08
Small sampling but

4x5 Norma $199/230/340/400/750/1150 (for lots of extras)

no 8x10s recently

Kind of ridiculous prices, I think it's the best of the lot. i should have picked up the $200 one for parts alone.

A pan tilt head sold for only $149 too. Silly - the Buy It Now fixed price listings are super high and the auction prices are peanuts.


If you think the prices are silly, it's either time to buy or walk away for good.

Hermes07
4-Nov-2012, 04:22
The F is a budget / entry level system and it shows. If you need a monorail that's as light as possible than that might be a justification for picking up an F (or ideally F2 as has been mentioned) but frankly this equipment is now so cheap and film so expensive that you may as well fork out for a Norma which is still lightweight and portable but much more well-built. Given the choice, I would always go for a P/P2 and live with the weight but I realise that's not an option for everyone's style of work.

The price list Jonathan has given is, I'm sure, a good indication, but you can find even better prices by buying direct from private sellers and you can usually resell for whatever you paid so the whole price thing is a bit moot in my opinion.

RedSun
4-Nov-2012, 08:57
I believe the older F and P were more solidly built than the newer F2 nad P2. So if you can find a mint condition F or F+, get it instead of a worn F2.

I do not see anyone mentioning model X. It is about the same age as the newer P2....

Frank Petronio
4-Nov-2012, 09:08
I disagree... I am not a fan of the metering back design they added with the later cameras but otherwise I see the F2 and P2 as improvements, especially the F2. Many of the older F and Ps are quite worn, as always buy on condition since the differences are pretty slight in practical use.

There was the X and also the C (P rear, F front), as well as 8x10 variations of the F with longer/larger parts. And a portrait P without all the movements for a more solid rear end. And probably many more variations.... Many of the used cameras you see were simply assembled from varied parts to make configurations that were never sold by the factory. It was not unusual for large studios to have multiple Sinars and to build whatever they needed from the interchangeable parts, which broke and wore out at different rates.... So just because someone describes their camera as this or that doesn't mean much on eBay, they are often wrong!

Alan Gales
4-Nov-2012, 10:23
The Sinar X does not have zero detents which is a deal breaker for some.

I read something somewhere (probably on here) where a fellow owned both the P and P2. His opinion was that over all one camera was as good as the other. I forget but something was changed on the P2 to make it more robust than the P but on the other hand the P2 has more plastic parts.

RedSun
4-Nov-2012, 17:25
I own or have owned F/F+, F1, F2, X, P1 and P2. All are in excellent condition. I can tell that the F/F+ was solidly built. The F1/F2, even the P2 have more plastic parts inside. The worst thing is the rubber knob cover. It wears out easily with both X and P2.

Of course both F and P are older cameras. But there is a lot of value in both if you can find one that is in excellent condition.

Jonathan Barlow
4-Nov-2012, 17:49
The P2 is by far the best constructed Sinar. The rubber-covered round P2 knobs are definitely more comfortable to use than the scalloped P knobs. The P has nylon gears and two of the movements are controlled by the same knob, requiring the use of a shift lever.

RedSun
4-Nov-2012, 18:22
This is not true. P2 may be the best design, but not the best constructed. Over time, both X and P2 become hard to turn, particularly the two fine focus movements and the two rise (up and down) movements. The rubber covered control knobs may be comfortable, but they become very slippery and useless. If you follow the eBay sales, you can clearly see that with several sales on X and P2.

rdenney
5-Nov-2012, 06:41
I own or have owned F/F+, F1, F2, X, P1 and P2. All are in excellent condition. I can tell that the F/F+ was solidly built. The F1/F2, even the P2 have more plastic parts inside. The worst thing is the rubber knob cover. It wears out easily with both X and P2.

Of course both F and P are older cameras. But there is a lot of value in both if you can find one that is in excellent condition.

You are finding yourself in a minority.

The knobs for the F were molded Bakelite, versus the molded nylon with rubber grips (which is the same design all small-format cameras use for control rings). There is nothing to slip on those older Bakelite handles, of course. I like those knobs better, too.

But the F uses an aluminum groove in the bottom of the frame, and the detent ball rides in that groove. As the groove wears, the detent becomes rough and the lateral shift movements likewise. The F2 use a steel wear plate for the detent ball and solved that problem.

The F2 front standard is a complete enclosure of the rail, and it has micro-focus, like the rear standard. It's a stronger and stiffer design, but it lacks the convenience of the "multi-purpose" standard for other applications (such as holding a compendium shade or knitting two bellows together) because it cannot be clamped to the middle of the rail without sliding over the end.

The F and F2 both have plastic guides for the micro-focus and rail followers. I've had both apart and see no difference there. The F2 uses plastic shims that make it possible to make fine alignment adjustments between standards. There is nothing wrong with plastic wear parts, and the notion that they wear faster than (poorly lubricated) metal is false.

The later F2 (after 1992 or so) has an independent lock for the shift movement, instead of using the same lock for shift and tilt as was the case with the F and first-year F2. This is an advantage in use.

The F used a small knob on the side of the carrier to lock the rise/fall columns. The F2 uses a wide control ring that sits under the focus knob that uses a cam action. It works much better and is not subject to damage from being overtightened as is the case with that earlier small knob.

The detents for the rise/fall columns are less likely to have frozen up and worn grooves in the columns with a newer camera. It's not fatal in practice, but it makes the operation rough. Both the F and the F2 use exactly the same screw-in detent ball assemblies--I've traded them one for the other.

The locks for the tilt control are out at the edge of the frame for the F2, but closer into the carrier for the F. The F2 is easier for me to operate one-handed while my other loupe-holding hand is with my head under the focus cloth.

All in all, the F2 shows improved design in a range of small details that were weak points in the F design. My worn F was still a better camera than my Cambo, but when I replaced the standards with F2 standards, it became even better. But I use the F film back on my F2 rear standard because I dislike the metering back.

An old Norma is all metal and exhibits finer manufacturing. But it's also older, and more subject to wear and abuse. Buy on condition, and that may sometimes come with the warning that the buyer will know a lot more about the condition than the seller claims to, but only after the money has been spent.

Rick "who has studied the machinery and the service manuals in some detail" Denney

RedSun
5-Nov-2012, 07:06
I do not care minority or majority. I just gave my opinion.

As I said before, I do not dispute the fact that later designs improved upon the older designs. Of course P2 is better designed than P and F2 improved over the old F. But this does not change the fact that both P and F/F+ were better constructed. The materials used were very solid and the craftmanship was just superb.

rdenney
5-Nov-2012, 08:37
I do not care minority or majority. I just gave my opinion.

As I said before, I do not dispute the fact that later designs improved upon the older designs. Of course P2 is better designed than P and F2 improved over the old F. But this does not change the fact that both P and F/F+ were better constructed. The materials used were very solid and the craftmanship was just superb.

Have you ever taken them apart? Apart from the knobs, and I agree about those, the working parts of the F2 and the F seem to me the same. I've had both apart, and fairly recently.

If you could be specific about something other than knobs, then at least we could be talking about facts.

Another example: For most of the F period, the thumbscrews at the bottom of the rise rods were merely threaded and held in place with lacquer. In later designs (starting before the end of the F period, as I recall), they machined a more complex design that used an O-ring as a friction device. Apparently, those glued thumbscrews were bringing aluminum threads with them when they were unscrewed for servicing.

Rick "who knows how to look at maching work, and not seeing where later F2's were machined any less finely than earlier F's" Denney

Robert Jonathan
6-Nov-2012, 15:11
Never used an F, but the standards are nice for using as bellows extensions or as a lens hood on an X, P, or P2.

I had a P, but sold it because I just didn't like the round rail system and it's stability at long extensions.

I like Arca and Horseman, where the rails are flat and chunky, and sit on top of the tripod clamp.

The Sinar X, P, and P2 standards are beautiful. I just wish they had a different rail/tripod mounting system. Square instead of round, that sits ontop of the clamp, instead of inside of it, but oh well.

Sinar stuff used to be the top of the top of the line, like buying a $30,000 digital back, but now they're so cheap on eBay and reliable used camera stores, you can just go out and get whatever you want for so cheap. Life is good.

Drew Wiley
6-Nov-2012, 16:09
I have a pretty good idea of how they hold up. I've carried Sinars over thousands of miles
of rough backpacking and used them in all kinds of weather. I consider the F2 front standard to be much better than the old F+ (which was simply a "multipurpose" standard
meant for an intermediate support between two separate bellows). This is an interchangeable system, and you have to be wary of hybrid cameras patched together with misc components which are not accurately described (though it might all work OK).
Recently I gave in to a longstanding temptation and picked up a really nice old Norma. The
tapered bellows are much more versatile than the standard box-shaped F-series bellows.
And the whole camera seems a little more rigid, though you give up yaw-free controls if
this matters - never seemed like such a big deal to me except for tabletop studio work.

WayneStevenson
6-Nov-2012, 17:27
Thanks guys. You have all given me plenty to think about. Part of me tells me perhaps it isn't the camera for me. The Ps are probably what I should be looking for. And the two 4x5 bodies I already use should suffice. But the other part of me thinks it's worth a shot given the condition it apparantly is in. If I like it more than my Calumet or my Toyo Omega-View, I'll definately consider retiring them.

It's a fair deal and definately not expensive so I have decided to go ahead with it. I'll let you all know my thoughts on it when it arrives.

Frank Petronio
6-Nov-2012, 17:49
Try a Norma!

RedSun
6-Nov-2012, 17:53
Keep in mind that it is very hard to find good conditioned P since that model is very old and most of them were in pro's hands for a long time. You may be able to find some decent X and P2, but they are not cheap if they are in good condition.

You would have more choices on other models. Just a few months ago, I purchased a P and a A, both were never used. They sat in boxes for many years and they are in beautiful shape.

Ray Bidegain
10-Nov-2012, 18:26
While all of you are talking SINAR anybody know where one can buy one of those little plastic deals that were sold aftermarket to catch the lens board just before it falls off by accident. Second item, how about the replacement part that goes inside the standard for the course focus knob to push on. They are almost always broken on used cameras.

Thanks

WayneStevenson
22-Nov-2012, 13:58
Just arrived today. Very happy with it. Even though it has no bearing on the brand, I am going to first start by saying that it's in mint condition. No dust anywhere. No marks or scuffs. I don't even see movement marks on the rail or rise columns. No marks where the lens boards go in and out. No marks that indicate a film holder was ever inserted into this. I am shocked at my good fortune. There is absolutely no evidence that this camera has ever been used other than the fact that I am the second owner of it. But I feel like the first. It's a warm feeling. Heh. Enough with the nonsense now.

I dislike the rise and fall. It isn't geared. Standards drop as soon as you loosen them. I love the tilts. Feels a lot more natural for me. On my other cameras, the rails always seem to get in the way of the tilting motion. However, there is nothing holding them up when they are not locked either. Heh. But the movement is very fluid. I really like the feel. Not sure how I'll like them from under a darkcloth mind you. They might be prohibitive. I wish the front standard had a fine focus as well as the rear. But only because I like symmetry. I only ever use the rear fine focus on my Toyo Omega View.

Very happy with the camera. Not sure about the exact model number. Other than it being some sort of 'F', I can't seem to located any literature which gives a definitive answer. Though I think it is either an F1, or an F2. Any help?

WayneStevenson
22-Nov-2012, 19:29
Actually, in deciphering all the helpful posts here once again, I believe this to be a Sinar F1 due to the sole lock for the swing and shift. My understanding is that the F2 has separate locks.

And one more thing that doesn't really matter much, but I notice that the camera base is unnecessarily tall. Almost 5"? Tack on another 6" for a #029 and we've got almost a foot up on our tripod. Heh.

Though trying to figure out why, I have realized that this camera can flop over on it's side to switch from portrait to landscape orientation without having to re-orient the back. Though over-tightening the rail base would be my concern.

rdenney
22-Nov-2012, 19:58
The F2 only has separate locks after its first two years of production. That's not a reliable test.

The F2 has geared focus on the front standard, like the rear standard does. The F and F1 front standards just lock in place and you focus with the rear standard.

Look for an old Norma clamp if you want one with a lower profile.

Rick "noting that the front and rear standards may not be from the same camera" Denney

WayneStevenson
22-Nov-2012, 21:08
Heh. Is there any way to visually confirm which camera it might be? Obviously it's irrelevant but I would like to know the name of the camera. Heh. ;)

WayneStevenson
22-Nov-2012, 21:42
Well, in going through the manual, it would appear the graflock back differs between the F1 and F2. The F2 has levers to lift open up the back for the film holders, whereas on the F1, you have to open with with your fingers. The F2 back also has the meter probe holder on it. The F1 does not.

And yes, according to the manual, the F2 has the focus knob / rail on both standards, whereas the F1 only has it on the rear.

I have an F2.

cluttered
22-Nov-2012, 23:19
And yes, according to the manual, the F2 has the focus knob / rail on both standards, whereas the F1 only has it on the rear.

I've got a PDF called "Sinar instruction manual", 14 pages long. Is that the same document?

WayneStevenson
23-Nov-2012, 00:11
Yes, it sounds like that is the one that I have.

Sevo
23-Nov-2012, 01:01
I've got a PDF called "Sinar instruction manual", 14 pages long. Is that the same document?

Probably. In German speaking countries at least the P2 came with the above, a fold-out system chart, a plastics card explaining DOF calculations (also usable as a screen protector) and a 150 page large format photography primer authored by C.Koch and J. Marchesi and appropriately called "Grossformat".

WayneStevenson
23-Nov-2012, 07:22
The file name says introduction, and covers the basics.

I'll see if I can find the link from where I had found it.

WayneStevenson
23-Nov-2012, 07:29
http://di.hexagram.ca/files/manuals/cameras/sinar_introductionmanual.pdf

cluttered
23-Nov-2012, 15:39
http://di.hexagram.ca/files/manuals/cameras/sinar_introductionmanual.pdf

Looks like that's the same as the one I've already got. But thanks for the info, it shows that I'm not missing out on a different manual :)

Jonathan Barlow
25-Nov-2012, 14:59
If anyone wants a Sinar instruction manual (Covers the P2, C2, F2, and F1) or a Sinar service manual (Covers the P2, P, and X), I've made them available here:

http://www.jonathanbarlow.com/sinar-instruction-manual.pdf

http://www.jonathanbarlow.com/sinar-service-manual.pdf

cluttered
25-Nov-2012, 17:12
If anyone wants a Sinar instruction manual (Covers the P2, C2, F2, and F1) or a Sinar service manual (Covers the P2, P, and X), I've made them available here

Thanks for that. The service manual is interesting; whilst my Sinar is an F2 and as such isn't explicitly covered by the service manual, it still provides lots of useful info for me.

rdenney
25-Nov-2012, 19:27
Thanks for that. The service manual is interesting; whilst my Sinar is an F2 and as such isn't explicitly covered by the service manual, it still provides lots of useful info for me.

F2 manual is here. (http://www.image2output-support.com/sinar/) Right-click it to download instead of using their PDF viewer. The F manual covers the F, F1, F2, and Handy.

Rick "lovely to have such resources available" Denney

Jonathan Barlow
26-Nov-2012, 21:28
I do also have the Sinar F service manual (Covers the F, F2, C2, and Handy) here:

http://www.jonathanbarlow.com/sinar-f-service-manual.pdf

cluttered
26-Nov-2012, 22:09
Useful links! The service manual will come in handy this weekend when I try to work out how to replace the spirit levels on my F2 without resorting to brute force :)

WayneStevenson
27-Nov-2012, 14:29
I was able to put my camera through it's paces in my studio the other night. I had five gorgeous ladies in there and decided to use the opportunity to become acquianted with it. I sent 25 holders through it. I absolutely love working with it. Ergonomic, and economical in motion. In comparison to my Calumet and my Toyo Omega View, this camera is hands down my favorite in the studio. I have yet to bring it outside for any landscape photography but I can't wait.

I really enjoy owning this and should have looked in the direction of Sinar to begin with.

sinarleica
11-Dec-2012, 09:37
I own Sinar F2 and P2

F2 is much lighter than P 2

very simple to focus , to calculate tilt angle and aperture but .. 4 kg ( 8 lbs)
P2 : same, quicker to set up but heavier than F2

both : very solid