Newbie with a question

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

I'm in the process of setting up my darkroom, I started mixing the chemicals today. I bought Dextol and I bought enough to make 5 gallons. I thought it would be cheaper that way. I did not realize that it was 5 gallons all at once.

My question is can I divide it into 5 equal parts and use freezer bags to keep 4 parts frozen until I want to use them? 1 gallon at a time sounds reasonable to me.

Thanks, Bill

[MIke Sherck]

You can't really separate powders effectively: the contents are not mixed evenly and what you'll end up with are five different mixtures of chemicals. Who the heck knows what they'll do when you use them.

A better idea is to get five one-gallon light-proof jugs. Oxygen is the problem for this stuff: it oxidizes and changes. You can tell it's oxidizing as the color changes to a darker and darker brown. If you have a way of mixing the whole 5 gallons at once then go ahead and do so, then fill four of the jugs to the brim and seal them tightly. They'll keep quite a while protected from oxygen that way. The fifth jug gets whatever's left and you use that one first.

If you don't have the ability to mix five gallons at once then, frankly, I'd sell the five gallon package or trade it for four or five one gallon packs.

Mike

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Mike, how long do you think it will last once it is mixed? Also, if I use the plastic bottles that the distilled water comes in, and keep them in a dark cabinet in the darkroom, would that work, and for how long?

Bill

[vinny]

Bill you don't need to title every thread with " newbie...."
We all gotta start somewhere.

[jk0592]

According to Kodak, you can keep the Dektol solution up to 6 months in full tightly stoppered bottles.

[Leigh]

Bill,

You might consider getting liquid concentrates rather than powder.

The powders are economical if you use large amounts within the specified life span. But if you only process small quantities, then discard the chemistry because it's too old, you really don't save.

The other concern is consistency. I use only one-shot developers for this reason.
Mixing fresh developer for each processing session will give much more consistent results.

- Leigh

[ImSoNegative]

For some reason my dektol does not seem to last that long before it starts turning brown, i guess its getting air to it or something maybe a couple of months is the best i can get out of it, i think i just need to print more.

[Ian Gordon Bilson]

OK, you have had the "Counsels of perfection". Although I would never do this with a powder Film developer,it would probably work for Dektol.
Invert the sealed bag,over and over,to ensure the heavier particles are well mixed. Weigh out a portion and dilute into solution.
Seal the bag well and repeat this every time you mix.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

A lot of good ideas, I agree with Leigh that consistency is a really important element. I'm not sure if Dektol comes in a liquid, but mixing before each printing session to ensure freshness sounds great... in the future I'll probably go that route. In the meantime I found someone who I can donate a couple of gallons to.
I looked it up again, it's only $26 for the Dektol so this was not the most expensive mistake I've ever made, and if I keep it in a dark cabinet, with bottles filled to the top, I am definitely supplied for about the next 6 months. When I see it turning dark, then I'll be buying a liquid concentrate.

Leigh, which liquid product do you use?
Bill

[Leigh]

Invert the sealed bag,over and over,to ensure the heavier particles are well mixed.
Very bad advice. You cannot mix any powder uniformly.

The instructions for most powdered chemicals tell you not to mix partial quantities.

- Leigh

[Leigh]

Leigh, which liquid product do you use?
Ilford Multigrade Developer, since I'm printing on Ilford Multigrade paper.

I've used several others, and really don't see much difference among them.

- Leigh

[rdenney]

Ilford Multigrade Developer, since I'm printing on Ilford Multigrade paper.

I've used several others, and really don't see much difference among them.

- Leigh

That's the product I have used extensively, too.

I had a rule when I built and operated my last darkroom: No powdered chemicals. When I had an unusual confluence of availability and motivation, I didn't want it consumed by waiting for a saturated solution to cool before I could use it.

I used HC-110 for film (I'm getting started again, and have bought some Pyrocat-HD), Ilfospeed Multigrade developer for prints, and so on.

I found that selenium toning (again, a liquid concentrate) did much more to make the print look good than any developer. It should be noted that some worship at the altar of chemistry, extolling the virtues of some subtle difference I can hardly see and that doesn't matter to me even when I do see it, so you have to understand what your objectives are. But start easy.

Rick "who also mixes one-shot these days for film developing" Denney

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

I've had time to check and Dektol does not come in a liquid, so next go around I'll probably try Ilford developer. I'm also printing on Ilford FB multigrade paper.

I was just on the Ilford site and they "strongly" recom using filters as opposed to using a color head. They said that filters were neutral density balanced with each other, so that when you change filters you do not have to change your exposure setting. They said that with a color head when you change paper grades you have to start over again with a new test strip.

Is that true? DO most members use filters or color heads?
I like the idea of the 'clean light path' that the color head gives you.
Bill

[Leigh]

Color heads are a poor choice for multi-grade b&w printing. They're not designed for that use.

One problem is that the paper is sensitive to green and blue, but the head does not put out green and blue
as separately-controlled colors. You have Cyan (green+blue), Magenta (red+blue), and Yellow (red+green).

The instructions for some color heads include charts of recommended settings that attempt to maintain uniform exposures.
Whether or not those are accurate for your paper and process would require some experimenting.

I use an Ilford Multrigrade head on my Beseler 45MX. It has only two bulbs, one for green, the other for blue.
The control console sets the various paper grades. It works beautifully.

- Leigh

[John Kasaian]

For brown plastic jugs, I get the ones hyrogen peroxide comes in.
I have a supply of amber glass jugs I got long ago from a pharmacy gratis (Robitussin syrup originally came in them---I don't know if the syrup still comes in glass though) you could also get wine jugs but those will likely be green glass and you'll want to find plastic or bakelite caps and the metal screw on caps jug wine comes in won't be kind to photo chemicals (or rather, your photo chemicals won't be kind to it!)
Of course, its more fun to empty wine jugs than hydrogen peroxide jugs:rolleyes:)

[John Kasaian]

john nanian introduced me to Ansco 130. That stuff seems to last forever if you're looking for a looooong shelf life. I've got a stock solution thats over three years old and still does a great job.

[Leigh]

Slightly OT...

If you want a long-lasting film developer, use Rodinal (now Adinol or R09 due to trademark issues).
It's been known to remain viable (no change in results) for 50 years or more, even in partially used bottles. It's used as a one-shot, with typical dilution of 1+50, so it's economical.

The results with slow films are extremely nice. It's a compensating developer.

- Leigh

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Leigh,
And I just bought a color head for my Beseler 45, well I'm going to try, although I do have the filters too.
Do you think the filters are the way to go as opposed to the Beseler color head. Is there a noticeable difference?
Sounds like you are in agreement with Ilford. Well at least the color head is a cold light source, will not 'pop' the negative...Right???

Bill

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

John, I like the idea of wine bottles, fill any empty space with canned air (no O2). Most now come with plastic corks. You are right it is more fun emptying wine bottles.
Bill

[Leigh]

Leigh,
And I just bought a color head for my Beseler 45, well I'm going to try...
Many people do use color heads for MG b&w printing, so it certainly can be done.
Check your manual to see if it provides grade settings specifically for the paper you're using.
If not, try to find them online.

The filters would probably not be a good choice because they're designed for simple thermal
light sources (tungsten or halogen), which have known ratio of green intensity to blue intensity.
Your color head probably does not match that profile, so the grade steps might not be correct.

I've never used a subtractive color head so I'm just going by general engineering principles here.
Perhaps someone with personal experience can chime in.

- Leigh

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

The manual has settings for 3 different brands of paper and Ilford is listed. So the Beseler mechanical color head has a chart for all grades in 0.5 increments. I just bought the color head 2 weeks ago, just for this purpose. I have no intention of ever processing color. I'll be using the color head and I'll see how it goes.

Today I developed my first, (since 1974,) 4x5 negatives today. Maybe tomorrow I can print them. Now that I have a negative I can check the safe lights, then start printing.

The smell of the stop-bath brought back memories. Good memories!
The smell of 'Southern Comfort" still will turn my stomach, strongly I might add. My first drinking experience, winter of 1966, bad snowstorm in Chicago, 3 kids off from school...

Bill

[Ian Gordon Bilson]

Bill,
I will share my experience. I printed happily for years on my Beseler 23C II,condenser head,Ilford Contrast filters,which slot in above the condensers,so, well out of the optical path between neg/lens/paper.
Then I was given a Dichro color head.
Despite the charts,changes in contrast of ,say,one grade,involved a complete new test strip run.
And,on Ilford multigrade,I could not get more than G4.
When the bulb burned out,I was happy to put that head in the parts bin.
Since you have the colorhead,use it anyway,but consider dialing out the filters,and getting a set of above the lens MG filters -it will improve your printing pleasure.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Ian,
Is it true that the Ilford Contrast Filters, were neutral balanced so that there was no difference in exposure when you changed them?

I have MG filters, that go in just above the lens, is that what you are talking about...when you say above the lens MG filters? Or are you talking about the ones you mentioned that slot in above the the condenser?

What can I use if I continue to use the Dichro as a cold light source. I know I can use the cheap ones that go in just above the lens, but is there something else?
Bill

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

I thought that the Dichro Color Head was the cat's pajamas for MC Paper.

What about dual color settings using Y&M at the same time? I found this on Ilfords site. The chart would not cut/paste.
Anyone use this dual system?

"Dual colour filter settings
From the table below, read off the approximate filtration needed for each contrast step. Dual filtration values usually need longer exposure times than single filtration values, but should need less adjustment to exposure times when changing contrast."

[Ian Gordon Bilson]

Hi Bill. Yes,the Ilford filters are density balanced,from 00 through to 3.5. Grades 4 and higher require a simple doubling of the exposure : double the time,or open 1F.
If they are clean and unscratched they can be used in the optical path.
AFAIK,the filters come in 3 formats - small plastic framed jobs about 2in square,which are typically placed below the lens in a holder,or above the lens in your case.
Then,as a set of about 4in squares,and finally,a set of 6inchers, which needed trimming to fit my Beseler. The last two options are not optically clear enough for projecting an image through,so should be placed above the negative.
Not sure about cheap-all the Ilford filters are fairly pricy.

[ROL]

My question is can I divide it into 5 equal parts and use freezer bags to keep 4 parts frozen until I want to use them? 1 gallon at a time sounds reasonable to me.

Thanks, Bill

I mix up 5 gallons into a floating lid container. It lasts at least 6 months. The almost immediate browning has no perceptible effect on my prints.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Ian, I've got to try and use the color head, I'll probably use the Dual Color Filter Settings. But if that does not work out I'll put the condenser head back on and pick up the Ilford filters, trim them and try that. I think I saw them for about $40 a set for 6x6".
Bill

[Ian Gordon Bilson]

Bill,your color head will still be useable even if you graduate to filters later. Just dial out the color on the head.
Good luck with your darkroom.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Ian, I believe if use the color head as a cold light source, one option would be to use Ilford below the lens filters, using their 3 screw universal adapter.
The Beseler has a filter that slides in just above the lens, is that a possible place to put an Ilford filter?
Beseler's condenser has the filter tray, the color head does not.

MOST IMPORTANT question, how good a job does the Beseler color head do with multi contrast paper? IS the RGB head that much better?
Is it really worth trying to find a RGB light source and then selling the one I have? I DO LIKE CONTRAST in my prints. Do not like MUDDY prints. I hope I could do the swap and probably break about even. So in reality it's not that big of a inconvenience. But if the Beseler head I already have does a great job then why bother? Opinions???
Bill

[Ian Gordon Bilson]

Ian, I believe if use the color head as a cold light source, one option would be to use Ilford below the lens filters, using their 3 screw universal adapter.
The Beseler has a filter that slides in just above the lens, is that a possible place to put an Ilford filter?
Beseler's condenser has the filter tray, the color head does not.

MOST IMPORTANT question, how good a job does the Beseler color head do with multi contrast paper? IS the RGB head that much better?
Is it really worth trying to find a RGB light source and then selling the one I have? I DO LIKE CONTRAST in my prints. Do not like MUDDY prints. I hope I could do the swap and probably break about even. So in reality it's not that big of a inconvenience. But if the Beseler head I already have does a great job then why bother? Opinions???
Bill
Bill,it will be hard to compare unless you get the filters,but if my experience is any guide,you'll get higher contrast with them.
Remember,my Beseler is a 23C. But your color head should be a fine light source at the white light setting.
The filter drawer just above the lens was meant for a red "safe" filter for setting up a print,and about as useful as tits on a bull,IMHO.
I doubt the small Ilfords would fit in there - they are plastic framed jobs.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Ian,
So you recommend using the Color Head as a white cold light source, and use the Ilford filters underneath the lens. It would be interesting to print using both dialed in Color Head and then the filters, and see which gives the best results. I like in focus, high contrast prints.

My enlarger came with Kodak contrast filters, is Ilford that much better?

Thanks Bill

[Ian Gordon Bilson]

Experiment by all means.I started with Kodak filters,which worked ok,but the Ilford filters may well be better suited to Ilford paper,in grade spacing and speed matching.

[cowanw]

Well, nobody has answered your question about the dual colour settings. I use these. They are for the purpose of keeping the Fstop and time the same as you change the filtering while looking for the right contrast for your print.
I find this very useful. I have two such enlargers and LPL and a Omega.
It is true that on mine I can get a harder grade than with the Dichroic filters, but only when I use an old dupont below the lens filter.
When I was useing more c-41 35mm, I needed that high a contrast occasionaly, but now, as I use larger formats and have finally got my development working better for me, the old #5 filter isn't getting any use.
Every thing is dependent on you and your very individual equipment and technique.
Everything else is guidance only.

[Brian Ellis]

Short answer: no.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

cowanw, that was what I hoped to hear. I'll be experimenting with what I have and see what happens. I can always put a Kodak contrast filter under the lens and see if that increases the contrast. I'll have to learn techniques that will increase the contrast. I know that toning will do it.
Bill

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Thanks for your input Ian and Brian.

[Tajmul12345]

I agree with you leigh,you say right.

[mike rosenlof]

I would mix the whole package in a 5 gallon bucket. Once it's well mixed, split into gallon containers. Freezer bags are pretty good. Well - washed, well - marked milk jugs are OK too. I'm not sure if I would freeze. It might be OK, I'm just not sure.

I tend to favor liquid concentrate that I can mix directly to working strength, but this should be a decent way to deal with mixed powder. Trying to divide the dry powder is much harder to get right.