Marking negatives

[Ed Richards]

I need to number some black and white negatives with small, permanent numbers in the film border. Is there something easier than an old fashioned India ink technical pen?

[Kirk Gittings]

Ed, Don't skimp on this-use a Rapid-o-Graph. I've had submissions rejected solely on this issue. Its not worth the savings of going cheaper unless it is absolutely identical in quality. Find a source that sells refurbished ones.

[Ari]

I started a thread last year about exactly that, and got some great answers.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?80054-Does-anyone-know&highlight=negatives

[Ed Richards]

Kirk - it is not the cost, it is keeping them working. But maybe they are better designed than in 1970.

[Kirk Gittings]

Can't answer that. I borrow them when I need them from architect clients. :)

[Curt]

Are you referring to (Koh-I-Noor Rapidograph Pens)?

They are instruments that if not used regularly will dry and clog up and are a major chore to clean.

[photobymike]

Our space program (NASA) found out that ink pens did not work in space and weightless environment. They spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to research and develop a ink pen that would work for our astronauts........ The Russians looked at this problem and solved it for less than 25 cents...... They used pencils....

I use a fine tip Sharpie ... cost less than a buck ... they work great and dipped on my tongue deluded the ink enough to use for spotting my photos

oh they are sold at the local Walmart Walgreens CVS ect....

[Kirk Gittings]

He didn't say it but I think Ed is refering to HABS documentation negative notations. They will reject it if you use a sharpie. I know. It happened to me.

[Ed Richards]

Kirk is right. Sharpies rub right off. I am curious about some of the modern pigment pens that are self-contained and disposable.

[Mark Woods]

Use a RED Rapidograph. They work great for me.

[C. D. Keth]

Our space program (NASA) found out that ink pens did not work in space and weightless environment. They spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to research and develop a ink pen that would work for our astronauts........ The Russians looked at this problem and solved it for less than 25 cents...... They used pencils....

That story is cute and all but it leaves out one very important detail. The American space program used pens rather than pencils because in the lunar landing module, a broken pencil lead was enough to punch a hole in the foil and strand 2 men on the moon.

[Ian David]

Ed, I have heard good things about Sakura Pigma Micron pens. Been meaning to try one myself, but haven't got around to it yet....

Ian

[Kirk Gittings]

FWIW, Sharpies are also not sharp enough for HABS.........just saying. I got dinged for it-had to take the negatives back-clean them and remark them. They specifically asked me to redo them with a black Rapidograph.

[Michael Cienfuegos]

I have used Rapidograph pens for about fifty years. I have a few which I bought about 25 years ago which still work, but as previously mentioned, are a PITA to keep clean. I use a small ultrasonic cleaner to clean the nibs, it works better than anything else I've tried.

[Ian David]

Ed, I have heard good things about Sakura Pigma Micron pens. Been meaning to try one myself, but haven't got around to it yet....

Ian

Actually I was just looking at the Sakura website. Looks like the Sakura Microperm is the one they recommend for non-porous surfaces including film.

That being said, maybe the Rapidograph is the way to go. I have a set of old Rotring rapidographs from the pre-CAD days - never thought of trying them on film. What ink do you use in them for photographic film?

[adam satushek]

I posted this same question in Ari's thread that he linked above.....but does anyone know of a good method for for marking negs that will be drum scanned in Kami mounting fluid? I would really like to number my actual negs and not just the sleeves as I currently do, but would worry about spending money on a Rapidograph and having it float right off when mounted and possibly damaging my negs and/or drum. It sounds like the Koh-I-Noor Trans-Mix Media Brilliant Ink would work, its supposed to be "archival, and waterproof for use on paper, wood, metal, plastic, glass, ceramics, and more." But I still have no idea if it would stand up to Kami Mounting fluid or Kami film cleaner. Anyone out there have any experinece with this?

Thanks,
Adam

[Scott Walker]

I agree with the rapidograph, doubt you will find a better tool for the price.
They are however a bit of a pain if you do not use them every day.
If you are going to put them to rest for a week or longer between uses it does not take long before they start to clog up and become rather difficult if not impossible to clean.
If you are using them every day they are absolutely wonderful, but do require regular cleaning, which is easily done with either the cleaner you can buy for them or even better, an ultrasonic cleaner.
I'm using my pens so little lately I usually do a complete clean with an ultrasonic cleaner after each use and put them away ink free.

[Doremus Scudder]

... I use a fine tip Sharpie ... cost less than a buck ... they work great and dipped on my tongue deluded the ink enough to use for spotting my photos

Aren't you worried that the ink will be angry when it discovers the deception?

:rolleyes:

Doremus

[Kirk Gittings]

Back in the 80s I signed some 100 silver prints in the margin with a fine tip Sharpie. The signatures have now faded to a lovely semi-transparent sepia brown..............I can mat over the signatures but I'm sure glad I didn't do any spotting with a Sharpie. They may have changed the ink in these since then, but I personally would not take the chance.

[photobymike]

FWIW, Sharpies are also not sharp enough for HABS.........just saying. I got dinged for it-had to take the negatives back-clean them and remark them. They specifically asked me to redo them with a black Rapidograph.

Forgive me but what is HABS?

[Kirk Gittings]

Historic American Buildings Survey

[Bill Burk]

So, if HABS is your reason for marking, then no shortcuts, right?

I would use Pelikan India ink.

I have found sharpies are invisible under Infrared goggles, so I can't read what I've written on the film boxes whether I have N or N+1 or ... to develop...

So I have been marking my film boxes lately with Faber-Castell PITT artist pen (M) that I stole from my teenager. Just got it at a local art supply store. Pretty nice little black opaque ink pens.

[nolindan]

Kohinoor makes a non-clogging ink http://www.dickblick.com/products/koh-i-noor-rapidograph-ultradraw-waterproof-ink/

Of course, it still clogs, it just takes several weeks instead of several days.

I used it in a Calcomp plotter, worked best when refilling the one-use disposable rapidograph points. Those days of CAD are long gone. There was an aesthetic in india ink on velum drawings that ink-jet or xerography can't duplicate.

[neprosti]

I am using a pencil, is chemically resistant

[jnantz]

i have only used pencil too, submitted in thumb tabbed unbuffered envelopes
and prints with pencil as well, in pmc ( photo mount cards ) ..
although i just submitted a job a week or so ago, for a state, and was told
to use a fine sharpie on the CD and on the back of the ink prints
because no other pen would work ...
i really can't get used to submitting a documentary projects on CD and inkjet prints ..

[cowanw]

I have used ink and a fountain pen for a while but this takes more than 24 hours to dry. Abotter helps this.
Recently however, I have solved the problem. Perhaps.
At Chapters or Indigo, in Canada there is a product from Faber Castell.
4 PITT artist pens with India ink :Black Sepia or Sanguine
Maximun lightfastness,Waterproff, permanent, odorless, Acid-free, PH neutral, with four points S .3mm,F .5mm,M .7mm, (usable) and B 1.5mm (More of a brush)
As on page 4 of the catalogue
http://www.faber-castell.ca/50225/Service/Brochures/Art-Graphic/fcv2_index.aspx

[schafphoto]

I always use Faber-Castell PITT artist pens for all my HABS, HAER or HALS work. The are pigment black, archival, waterproof, permanent, and work on the shiny side of the negs. There is a 10 second window of time after misspelling something that the ink can be wiped off before drying. Then a few minutes where the ink can be smeared if you are not careful. After that the ink only comes off only with a HABS-approved, non-reactive eraser. I have rewashed these marked negatives and the ink stays on through the entire wash procedure. Never had a problem with HABS, HAER, HALS or any of the NPS reviewers.

I bought the 4 Pack of the PITT pens (XS, S, F, M) in black and found I always use the "S" small. this gives you the following look on the 4x5 contact sheet...

84405

Hope that helps.

[David R Munson]

A few minor things I'd like to add:


I have both Rotring and Koh-i-Noor rapidograph pens of comparable widths, three each. The Koh-i-Noor pens have consistently worked better and have never had any of the weird ink flow problems I've had with the Rotrings. Yes, they're harder to maintain and ink, but so what? They work better.
Over the last ten years using the same three Koh-i-Noor pens, the only times I've had clogging problems is when I've left the pens loosely-capped or just idle for stupid amounts of time. Even after a couple months idle, mine still write well at a moment's notice.
I've had the best luck with Koh-i-Noor and Chartpack inks, both in the little dropper bottles (22ml aka 3/4 oz). Other inks have been more problematic.

[cowanw]

I always use Faber-Castell PITT artist pens for all my HABS, HAER or HALS work. The are pigment black, archival, waterproof, permanent, and work on the shiny side of the negs. There is a 10 second window of time after misspelling something that the ink can be wiped off before drying. Then a few minutes where the ink can be smeared if you are not careful. After that the ink only comes off only with a HABS-approved, non-reactive eraser. I have rewashed these marked negatives and the ink stays on through the entire wash procedure. Never had a problem with HABS, HAER, HALS or any of the NPS reviewers.

I bought the 4 Pack of the PITT pens (XS, S, F, M) in black and found I always use the "S" small. this gives you the following look on the 4x5 contact sheet...

84405

Hope that helps.

Good to hear.
Can you be more specific about the HABS-approved, non reactive eraser?
I googled that and only got your post.

[schafphoto]

From the HABS/HAER/HALS Guidelines…
"If the ink does not take to the negative base, carefully erase a portion of the border with a Staedtler Mars® plastic white vinyl eraser. This usually provides a surface that will take the ink."

[pchaplo]

Schaf, do you use the “magic” (white plastic Staedtler) eraser to prep the film before marking?

Paul


From the HABS/HAER/HALS Guidelines…
"If the ink does not take to the negative base, carefully erase a portion of the border with a Staedtler Mars® plastic white vinyl eraser. This usually provides a surface that will take the ink."

[schafphoto]

Schaf, do you use the magic eraser to prep the film before marking?

Paul

First of all, Magic Eraser is now a Mr. Clean brand name of melamine abrasive cleaning sponges that are great for getting scuff marks off of tile floors and flat white walls. (do not use them on semi-gloss or glossy walls because they will remove the sheen.) I use Magic Erasers all the time for scouring all kinds of things around the house.

That’s probably not what you meant, and I did buy a Faber Castell® plastic white vinyl eraser. I do use it occasionally when I have a "problem" negative to number. HABS/HAER/HALS has some very strict standards that do not necessarily apply to the rest of the photogs that might want to mark a negative.

But to update this thread, I have moved from the Pitt pens that I used in 2012, the Pitt pens still work but they are not as dense as the Staedtler (just easier to spell). I now own dozens of types of pens and have settled on Staedtler Pigment Liner archival, acid-free pens. They make a nice 4 pack with .1mm, .3mm, .5mm and .7mm. I have found the .3 and .5 work pretty well depending on if you have enough room in the rebate area of the 4x5 or 5x7 negative to make your numbers.

I now buy these pens individually on Amazon in the .4mm size because I have found that that is the best combo of density and accuracy for my tastes. YMMV.



-Schaf

[pchaplo]

Yes I meant the white polymer eraser I use the Mars-Staedtler version. Tongue-in-cheek about “magic.” As of today, with info from you, I am now using the Staedtler black pigment liner pens. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I am labeling forty-eight 4x5 HABS negs as I write — liking the 0.3mm pen the best. MANY THANKS!

ps: Dinkum shade ordered and on its way! My cowboy hat lens shade was too much to wrangle consistently in wide angle shots with multiple negative sets.


First of all, Magic Eraser is now a Mr. Clean brand name of melamine abrasive cleaning sponges that are great for getting scuff marks off of tile floors and flat white walls. (do not use them on semi-gloss or glossy walls because they will remove the sheen.) I use Magic Erasers all the time for scouring all kinds of things around the house.

That’s probably not what you meant, and I did buy a Faber Castell® plastic white vinyl eraser. I do use it occasionally when I have a "problem" negative to number. HABS/HAER/HALS has some very strict standards that do not necessarily apply to the rest of the photogs that might want to mark a negative.

But to update this thread, I have moved from the Pitt pens that I used in 2012, the Pitt pens still work but they are not as dense as the Staedtler (just easier to spell). I now own dozens of types of pens and have settled on Staedtler Pigment Liner archival, acid-free pens. They make a nice 4 pack with .1mm, .3mm, .5mm and .7mm. I have found the .3 and .5 work pretty well depending on if you have enough room in the rebate area of the 4x5 or 5x7 negative to make your numbers.

I now buy these pens individually on Amazon in the .4mm size because I have found that that is the best combo of density and accuracy for my tastes. YMMV.



-Schaf

[schafphoto]

December 2018 update:
This year I marked about 550 negatives. My new favorite pen for marking HP5 HABS/HAER/HALS negatives is a 0.4 tip Faber Castel Ecco Pigment archival pen. I suggest buying two because one always works better than the other, and the shipping is the same. There are different tip thicknesses but the ECCO black ink is the most dense I have ever used. Available online from Faber Castel. (second choice is now a tie between the Staedtler Pigment Liner 0.4 and the Faber Castel PITT artist pen black S tip).

-Schaf

[Jim Noel]

Ed, Don't skimp on this-use a Rapid-o-Graph. I've had submissions rejected solely on this issue. Its not worth the savings of going cheaper unless it is absolutely identical in quality. Find a source that sells refurbished ones.

Absolutely!