Linhof Color for a newbie?

[cluttered]

I've already got a Crown Graphic 4x5 but I'm looking to buy either a monorail or a field camera, for use both in the studio and occasionally for landscapes. The Crown is nice but not flexible enough.

So this newbie is thinking about buying a Linhof Color that I came across recently. It's relatively cheap (by local standards, but not compared to other places). It looks the same as the one at this URL: http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Linhof_Color_4x5 and it comes with a couple of lenses. The condition looks good, and the bellows are in very good condition.

Most of my photography is still in medium format so I've still got much to learn with LF. Would this camera be a good choice, or would I do better to buy something better and more modern such as Sinar F2? (F2's seem to be more common here, although more expensive.) And if I decide to buy a better quality wide angle lens for the Color, what should I look for?

Thanks!

[Frank Petronio]

The Linhof Color can be a cool, 1960s retro $300 camera but I wouldn't spend much more on it. A new bellows will cost more than that, so check that the current one isn't gummy or worn on the corners. Parts will be expensive and rare but the good news is that it uses Technika lensboards, which are common and inexpensive. Back movements are not intuitive - it's basically a Technika on a monorail so it still has more limited movements than most other monorails. I think it was more of a bargain way to enter the Linhof system than anything else - yet the workmanship is superior and if you clean it up so it isn't sticky from sitting around for years then you'll have a nice camera.

A $300 Sinar F will have unlimited, full movements and is infinitely expandable with a ready supply of inexpensive and common parts and accessories. All things considered, the Sinar is the better practical choice - a $500 F2 or Norma would be an even better choice though. A decent used bellows will be only $50 to $80 on eBay.

If you have a good 135 on your Crown then most people get a 90 and 210 for a classic kit. You could also find or make a lensboard adapter to use the Crown board on the larger Sinar board.

[Bill_1856]

You'll probably need a new bellows for $300-400, if it hasn't had one recently.

[cluttered]

You'll probably need a new bellows for $300-400, if it hasn't had one recently.

The current belows look to be quite good, but I didn't realise that a replacement was so expensive! Thanks to both of you for your help. I'll continue with my searching and pondering :)

[dap]

I think the linhof color is a dandy little camera. They are small enough to pack for field use and they are extremely durable (they are basically just monorail versions of the technika). There are at least two different versions of the color floating around out there and price will be most likely depend on which one you find. The early more common version is pictured on the website you linked to. The later model added a split rail (which makes it much less bulky to pack for field use) and a rear rise function. In the linhof world the colors are pretty good bargains (usually selling for much less than the technikas which they share much in common with).

I also think they are one of the coolest looking view cameras ever made (but I might be in the minority on that one).

[Teodor Oprean]

For your intended purpose, I think a Linhof Kardan Color 45S would be a better buy.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Linhof-Kardan-4x5-Color-45S-45-S-Large-Format-Camera-EXC-/280982919740

[Leonard Robertson]

Years ago I owned a Color and still remember the silky smooth focusing with the big red knobs. Also the quality and finish were wonderful. But beyond that, I can't really recommend one. The movements are rather limited and the controls I found fairly awkward. If you are thinking of using wide angle lenses, the Color is really limited compared with a more modern camera that takes interchangeable bellows. The lens boards are small compared to something like a Sinar, if you ever wanted to use large aperture portrait type lenses. Bellows draw is limited to about 17 inches as I recall, which is okay, but if you do want more extension for some reason, you are sort of stuck. I would certainly favor an F series Sinar mostly because so many extra pieces are available on the used market, but Toyo or Horseman or something with interchangeable bellows seems like a better direction for you to go than the Color.

Still, I sometimes wish I hadn't sold my Color, since it was my first Linhof. I fell in love with Linhof brand 50 years ago from reading the beautiful magazine they published. I feel like somewhat of a traitor using a Sinar Norma, but it is a great camera and I can easily buy any extra bits I need from KEH or eBay.

Len

[Frank Petronio]

Agree with Leonard, the Linhofs are the very best quality - from another Sinar Norma user (I love mine too but it really isn't as nicely made as the Linhof). That Kardan mentioned above looks nice too though!

[cluttered]

The Linhof Color that I'm considering includes a 135/235 convertible lens plus a 210 lens (can't remember more details, sorry) and the reflex viewer. The condition looks very good including the bellows. I've looked at some of the suggestions on this thread, the F2 does sound like the "sweet spot" for what I'm after, the trick is finding one locally (or that can be shipped) in good condition for a reasonable price.

[Frank Petronio]

How much is it?

Based on the mention of being a convertible lens, probably the lenses are from the 1960s, matching the camera's age. If unused they can be gummed up and hazed, which usually can be cleaned for about $100 and a trip to the technician... otherwise they are nice lenses. Just factor that in ~ versus buying more modern lenses for about $250-450 for a late 1990s-era Schneider or Rodenstock 135-150-180-210 in nice shape.

The Linhof bellows are high quality but thin, and eventually the glued seam along the bottom gets sticky and fails. If it is tacky you have a negotiating point.

Again, while it has more movements than a Graphic, it does not have the range of other monorails. And because the bellows is fixed, you can't swap it out for a bag bellows should you want to use wider lenses. What I am saying is that it can be a very nice camera but don't pay a lot for it!

[neil poulsen]

I had one of these. It's a Technika on a rail. I had this and a Deardorff 5x7/4x5, and I decided to keep the latter and sell the former.

If you get one, for sure, get the split rail. That is, it has about a 14" rail (can't remember exactly), and a shorter 4" or 5" rail that screws onto the front of the longer bellows. The nice thing about the split rail, is that one can roll the camera on to the short rail and then unscrew it from the long rail. This helps the camera itself to pack well, because one can pretty easily stow the camera in a backpack and fit in the longer rail elsewhere.

Another feature of this camera is that the bellows combines two different types of bellows. Most of the bellows is a standard Technika bellows. But towards the front standard, the bellows becomes much more flexible for wide-angle lenses. So, the bellows can be pretty tightly packed, yet the flexible portion towards the front makes it possible to use wide angle lenses.

I think the one you show is an older version. If you rack the front standard back towards the rear standard, eventually the front standard fits under or near the top of the rear standard, and that inhibits the front standard from rising except for about a cm. (With greater rise, the front standard, or the bellows, bumps into the top of the rear standard.) The newer version is open on the top, and so the rear standard does not inhibit the front from rising. (Of course, the bellows will inhibit the front from rising too far, but at least the front standard isn't bumping into the top of the rear standard.) I would wait until one of these newer versions becomes available.

The newer versions (and maybe older versions) also have the same type of lever that raises the front standard of a Technika. Make sure that this lever isn't stripped before bidding.

One reason I sold mine, is that I noticed that images taken with the camera (to my mind) tended to show more flare from light reflecting off the interior sides of he bellows than the Deardorff. But if that's the case, it would also be the case with Technikas. So, maybe I was mistaken. Yet, that was my observation. Others might wish to comment.

[Alan Gales]

When all is said and done, the Sinar is the best value out there in monorails in the U.S. market.

[Frank Petronio]

But he is down under, where the ground glass is right side up.

[Cor]

About 1 year ago I "upgraded" from a Tech III to a Linhof Color. Above posters have already given quite some info. The Color is basically a TechIV on a monorail. Indeed for a monorail the movements are limited, but for landscape/architecture work its sufficient. It is very easy and quick to set up, and I work upto 65 mm with a recessed lensboard (movements with that lens are minimal anyway, but possible.

A new sets of bellows is no we near 300 usd, if you buy by ecbuyonline it's around a 100 I believe, and it's a good product (have had to change the bellows on mine). I like mine, it's looks are well..retro.. The only nitpicking is the middle clamp. When you use lenses below 150mm both standard clamps should be together, and the "tripod clamp"behind them (having the mono rail poking in your face if you do not care.

So in the field I have to swap the clamps, no big deal but a small nuisance it is..

Excellent workmanship, smooth and solid movements..

Best,

Cor

Btw I have the oldest version without the mentioned improvements, which do make the rear standard bulkier, although there are definitive benefits as mentioned above.

[Frank Petronio]

$300-plus would be for a Linhof OEM bellows, and even then it would be a standard Technika bellows, not the special one described with the "bag" in the front, which is no longer made. I've had the Chinese bellows on an old Technika, it is fine for $100 although it can be a small challenge to install yourself - you have to be "handy".

[Leonard Robertson]

The Linhof "cluttered" posted the link to http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Linhof_Color_4x5 is the original "Color". I think of it as the "red knob" model, although the one pictured in the link has white knobs on the front focus, probably replacement knobs. I believe the Color is based on the Technika IV. The lock knobs for the rear movements are one the side of the rear body. One piece rail. The bellows doesn't have the wide angle front section.

The next version was the "Kardan Color" http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Linhof_Kardan_Color based on the Technika V. White knobs, rear movement knobs relocated, rear rise, bellows with WA front, split rail, probably other differences I'm not aware of. Much improved over the original Color.

I believe the replacement for the Kardan Color was the Kardan Color 45S which Teodor posted the eBay link to. These are a much better camera than either of the two earlier Colors, although bulkier and heavier. I nearly bought one of these years ago, but it was too expensive at the time (well actually I was too cheap). Really, really a beautiful camera. There may have been an early version without interchangeable bellows and I don't know if the rail could be added to, but I'm not sure on either of these things. A couple of links I found on the 45S: http://www.lightmountainphotography.com/tech%20pages/camera%20page%20tech.htm and http://lomolca.org/lomo/linhof-kardan-582.html

And to add to the confusion, Linhof used variations of the names Kardan and Color in both earlier and later models. So if you buy a Linhof, pay attention to the actual features more than the name.

Len

[Terence Falk]

I've used a Linhof Karden 45s since 1976 and I love it; they are very well made and it always comes through for me. The two things that are important are the bellows, which has been already mentioned here ( I replaced mine years ago from a place in Long Island, NY) and the focusing system that uses a wheel that sits in a groove in the standard. Over time, the groove enlarges due to wear, and repairing this could be next to impossible. It would be best, of course, to see the camera in person, or at least have a return policy.

[cluttered]

Wow, I'm really impressed with the great feedback I've received to my question. Thanks, all!

I have seen the camera in person but when I did I didn't really know what to check for other than the bellows. I'll probably revisit it during the coming week and I'll buy it if I can make the price better, otherwise I'll just keep searching for a Sinar F2 or similar.

[mortensen]

I sold mine to Cor - good to hear, its still in service. The above posts give you all the info you need - I just want to add a few points:
*if you plan on using wides with movements, go for something else! IIRC, you only get 15mm of rise with a 90
*the issue with the clamp is a bit of a nuisance, but apart from that the camera is very quick and intuitive
*the built quality of Linhof's is addictive! After I sold my Color, I have bought two more Linhofs - I simply can't imagine shooting with a camera of lesser workmanship! camera heroine - beware! :)

... and if you don't know your needs yet, buy it for starters - I think we have all been through a couple of cameras to really discover our needs and finally pick the tool of our preference. Ask Frank about that... ;)

[cluttered]

*the built quality of Linhof's is addictive! After I sold my Color, I have bought two more Linhofs - I simply can't imagine shooting with a camera of lesser workmanship!

I'm still wavering between the Linhof Color and a Sinar F2; how would you compare the workmanship of these two? (The Color is local to me so I've seen it first-hand, but if I buy an F2 it will probably be bought sight-unseen.)

[Frank Petronio]

Linhofs are hand finished and old world cast and milled parts, Sinar Fs are precision quality Aluminum with more plastic parts, modern Arcas are high-tech CNC machined, Cambos are rough cast, Toyos are functional but more plasticy than the Sinars.

Or... Linhofs are old Mercedes, Sinars are newer Volkswagens, Arcas are new Audis, Cambos are Opels/Chevys, and Toyos are old Datsuns.

Ebonies are Jaguars, Chamonixes are Hyundais, Shen Haos are Fiats. Deardorffs are Cords.

[Bob Salomon]

Linhofs are hand finished and old world cast and milled parts, Sinar Fs are precision quality Aluminum with more plastic parts, modern Arcas are high-tech CNC machined, Cambos are rough cast, Toyos are functional but more plasticy than the Sinars.

Or... Linhofs are old Mercedes, Sinars are newer Volkswagens, Arcas are new Audis, Cambos are Opels/Chevys, and Toyos are old Datsuns.

Frank,

Linhof has been using CAD and CNC since the 90s.

[Bob Salomon]

The Linhof is a complete camera, made as a camera with separate locks for each movement.

Sinar F series cameras are comprised of accessories for the P series cameras. Take a rail, add auxialliary standards and a back and you have a F series. But some movements share locks with other movements on a F.

Linhof uses a minimal amount of lubrication. Sinars require much more on some models. Linhof uses brass on aluminum which is self-lubricating.

[Cor]

Hi Lars,

Yup still using the Color, although I regret I passed a deal on a newer Color, just after bought yours (it was only € 150,-).

Since this thread turns into a quite extensive overview on the Color, it might as well be complete for future reference..

On the old model: a 90mm with a recessed lens board gives all the rise I need, and probably my SA 90/8 can give.

Why I would upgrade to "newer" model if above deal would pass me by again (highly unlikely): The cut out housing at the back standard + the special bellows is a small bonus. Although such a 45 year old bellows are a risk, and getting the same folding in a new bellows probably very hard to find and expensive

The old version has a laughable drop of about 5mm or so (which is quite hidden away), the new version has substantial back raise.
(yes I get by with full back and front tilt, but handy that aint)

Most important to me is the raise: equal to a Tech IV it is with a knob. If you use raise, and decide to change your lens and/or add a compendium, changes are that by doing so you press down the front standard, there is no lock on the raise knob.

The newer version (TechV) has this lever for raise (but be warned this can be worn out!)

Having al said this: off course I would like to have the latest Tech, but I can not justify spending that amount of money..yet..the Color does everything I basically need right now..

Best,

Cor


I sold mine to Cor - good to hear, its still in service. The above posts give you all the info you need - I just want to add a few points:
*if you plan on using wides with movements, go for something else! IIRC, you only get 15mm of rise with a 90
*the issue with the clamp is a bit of a nuisance, but apart from that the camera is very quick and intuitive
*the built quality of Linhof's is addictive! After I sold my Color, I have bought two more Linhofs - I simply can't imagine shooting with a camera of lesser workmanship! camera heroine - beware! :)

... and if you don't know your needs yet, buy it for starters - I think we have all been through a couple of cameras to really discover our needs and finally pick the tool of our preference. Ask Frank about that... ;)

[Sevo]

Linhofs are hand finished and old world cast and milled parts, Sinar Fs are precision quality Aluminum with more plastic parts, modern Arcas are high-tech CNC machined, Cambos are rough cast, Toyos are functional but more plasticy than the Sinars.

From visiting all three factories, I don't have the feeling Linhof, Sinar and Arca haven't really been using different technologies at least from the mid eighties on - all of them were heavy on CNC by that time. Post-Norma Sinar have a strong affection for making one side of all bearings and gears Nylon or PTFE - but they claim it increases reliability. And while that may be a bit exaggerated going by my experience, they certainly don't strip or break that much earlier than the metal bearings on the others, and if they do, it used to be a half hour on-location repair at the next pro camera shop with a cheap commodity spare where it meant back to the factory for Arca or Linhof (at least ever since the Linhof service centre two blocks off my studio closed). Back in the days, that doubtlessly sold Sinars. It will be less of an advantage now that spares supplies are running out - but any workshop that can mill a Arca or Linhof gear could as well mill a replacement Sinar gear, even from brass if you want to get rid of the plastics.

[cluttered]

I'm glad I asked my original question, this thread has been fascinating and very informative for me. Anyway, I've taken all the advice on board and have ended up buying a Sinar F2. I think on balance it will be much better for me, although the Linhof Color is still trying to convince me that I have room for it as well :)