View Full Version : "ecbuyonline" Sinar 8x10 Bellows
I think I have a bellows light leak in my Sinar F2 8x10. I don't know for sure yet, but there has already been some 'repair' work near the rear mount, so iffy at best.
I've been shopping EBay looking for a replacement and I've dealt with ecbuyonline before (never for bellows) and been pretty happy with them. I have a few questions about this, I hope someone can help:
I understand that for all Sinar's famed interchangeability, the 8x10 bellows for metering and non-metering backs are NOT interchangeable. Can anyone confirm this? What's the difference? I have a metering back on my camera and ecbuyonline's bellows are sold as made for "Sinar P2" and show a photo of their bellows on an 8x10 P2 with a metering back. Surely this would be the same back as my F2?
Also, I emailed them and they told me the max extension for the 'normal' bellows is 700mm. Does this sound about right? I don't imagine I'll ever use anything much longer the a 450 (or maybe an APO Ronar 600?) but I do often do close-ups with a lot of bellows extension. Would it be advisable to look into the extra long bellows, or should 700mm be versatile enough for most uses?
Last question - has anyone ever seen ecbuyonline's bellows, or owned a set? Are they of decent construction and reasonably durable? How do you think they compare to OEM (Sinar) bellows for this camera?
I know this is a lot of questions, but I'd hate to go through what promises to be a lengthy ordering process, only to learn on delivery that these aftermarket bellows won't be suitable. Thanks for your advice!
RichardSperry
20-Oct-2012, 02:52
What's lengthy about the purchase process?
Click buy it now, then pay. (I would assume).
Bob Salomon
20-Oct-2012, 04:39
Why not call Sinar and ask them?
I figured there were enough Sinar users here that someone could tell me the difference between meter back and non meter back 8x10 bellows. Or maybe this is just a myth and I got bad info.
Leigh? Rick?
..not for a Sinar, but the one I got from them for my Technika IV is thus far excellent, the material looks very sturdy ( I can only assume they use the same stuff for Sinar bellows)
Best,
Cor
Peter De Smidt
20-Oct-2012, 07:05
The bellows for metering back and non-metering back Sinar cameras are not the same.
genotypewriter
20-Oct-2012, 07:14
Last question - has anyone ever seen ecbuyonline's bellows, or owned a set? Are they of decent construction and reasonably durable? How do you think they compare to OEM (Sinar) bellows for this camera?
I got two for my 8x10 Linhof Kardan. The quality is not worse than what I have on my Chamonix 8x10. They're not going to win awards for finish but they do the job just as good as anything else.
Also the seller is a nice guy. No issues there.
B.S.Kumar
20-Oct-2012, 08:08
I'm also interested in the quality of the "ecbuyonline" bellows, though for a 4x5. Cor and genotypewriter, can you comment on the construction? Does it look like a single-layer synthetic material, or a conventional three-layer construction? Is it as flexible as the original? Thicker or thinner than the original?
Kumar
Kumar - That's a good question - On my current Sinar 8x10 standard bellows, there is enough flexibility for pretty full movements, while focused at infinity for my 210 lens, which is fairly wide on 8x10.
I don't plan on going any wider with this format and I certainly don't plan to buy an additional bag bellows either! 4x5 is another story, I have to use a bag bellows on my Sinar F2 4x5 to get any rise or shift using 125mm or less. The 8x10 standard bellows seem to tolerate quite a bit more movement with short lenses. I hope the ecbuyonline bellows are as flexible as my current leaky Sinar ones!
Amedeus
20-Oct-2012, 09:47
I figured there were enough Sinar users here that someone could tell me the difference between meter back and non meter back 8x10 bellows. Or maybe this is just a myth and I got bad info.
Leigh? Rick?
The bellows for a metered and regular 8x10 Sinar back are different. The standards for a metered and normal 8x10 back are different too. Reducing backs and some accesories for metered and regular Sinar 8x10 backs are different also due to the different frame size
Don't have my backs in front of me but I can provide frame dimensions if needed
Amadeus - Thank you for the info! So if I understand what you're saying about the differences, it is only the actual size of the rear mounting frame? I wouldn't have thought it would be Sinar's method of mounting, which is pretty much the same 'groove with locking bar" for standards, backs, lensboards, etc. As long as it's only the size (difference between the Sinar Met. and non-Met. back bellows), I can verify the size from ecbyonline.
In fact, here is the size they gave me for the back frame of their standard "Sinar P2" bellows, which is pictured on their site attached to a metering back. They're saying the dimensions of the rear frame of their bellows is 324 x 324mms, or 12.75"x 12.75". Does that sound like the correct size for the metered back?
Thanks a lot for helping with this question, I'd really like to order a set of these, but as mentioned earlier in this post, I don't want to order all the way from China only to get the wrong thing.
Frank Petronio
20-Oct-2012, 11:35
Your old leaky bellows has good frames that are very valuable - with them you can send off for a custombellows.uk bellows and get exactly what you need done perfectly, as in doing it the right way.... Use the Chinese ones in the meantime and then sell them or keep as a spare.
Frank - yep! Never even occurred to me to try that. I'm familiar with Camerabellows.com and have heard many good things about them. I was also a bit loth to just toss my old ones, but I didn't realize they might be still good for something. Like sticking a new bellows in between 'em!
Thanks for the tip!
Oops - I mean "custombellows.com", not Camerabellows....
Frank Petronio
20-Oct-2012, 14:46
When I shot an 8x10 Sinar I found a cheap leaky set of bellows for precisely that reason. Of course waiting for someone to offer some beat-up 8x10 bellows for sale was, umm, challenging.
I am not a big fan-boy for Sinar, I think they made some dumb design decisions over the years - the metering back especially. That's an expensive mistake for a lot of people. The best thing about Sinar is that there are so many parts and pieces available in the US, it makes it easier to fix or build whatever you want.
I sure do agree with you on the metering back issue! I can definitely see why that would be useful for a commercial photog shooting chromes all day, but otherwise a waste of material. I wish I could find an F2/P2 non-metering 8x10 back, but I'm not sure that even exists, or could be got for less than $2K if it did!
I'm still pretty new to Sinar and I do like that "all the parts and pieces" are plentiful and fairly universal between cameras, of course with the EXCEPTION of the high-dollar bellows I need! Other than the fact that parts are easy and cheap to get though, I don't know of any reason to choose Sinar over an Arca or Linhof. Maybe the simple fact that I've never really seen or used anything else keeps me blissfully ignorant of the advantages of some other systems out there!
Anyway, I've emailed custombellows for a quote and we'll see what they say. After shipping back and forth from the UK and buying a set of "cheap" $200 Chinese bellows for the interim, it might end up making more fiscal sense to just find a set of OEMs and be done with it.
Or try to repair the set I have? Anybody ever tried the bellows repair kit from Bostick & Sullivan, or others? (or the judicious use of some gaffer's tape?!)
I also had a good experience with them. I bought bellows for a 2D.
Pbryld - you had a good experience from whom? ecbuyonline, or Custombellows.com?
Peter De Smidt
20-Oct-2012, 17:25
Custombellows.com is great, as in the same quality as OEM bellows.
Regarding repairing bellows, this comes up quite often. Some will claim patching works well, and it can, especially if the hole wasn't cause by old age. (If it was caused by old age, you're about to have a whole bunch more.) The problem is that LF photography is a very resource intensive operation, and that's even if you ignore the cost of the materials. Do you really want a shoot ruined because a fix didn't work? A first rate bellows should last for decades, and so springing for inexpensive bellows may be a good deal in the short run, but I doubt it's a good one in the long run.
Amedeus
20-Oct-2012, 17:41
Cletus,
I just took both my bellows off from both camera's and measured 12 3/4" square for the metered-back bellows, this is the widest dimension of the frame and I get 11 1/4" for the standard, non-metered Sinar back bellows. As such, it's clear the light trap dimensions also be be different, so different frames and different accessories. So yes, to Frank's point, the metering back can add confusion and un-necessary cost to the equation.
I do use a metering back for both 4x5 and 8x10 studio work when I have the time and inclination to use the probe and a Profisix ... my metering practices traveling outside are quite different so I tend to use the non-metering back and travel a bit lighter ...
In short, the lens boards and front standards are "standard" ... the 8x10 back frames and associated bellows are not, there is quite a difference between metered and non-metered ... so caveat all those in need of bellows. My cameras are P and P2, I don't have dimensions for the F versions.
Best,
Rudi
Amadeus - Thank you for the info! So if I understand what you're saying about the differences, it is only the actual size of the rear mounting frame? I wouldn't have thought it would be Sinar's method of mounting, which is pretty much the same 'groove with locking bar" for standards, backs, lensboards, etc. As long as it's only the size (difference between the Sinar Met. and non-Met. back bellows), I can verify the size from ecbyonline.
In fact, here is the size they gave me for the back frame of their standard "Sinar P2" bellows, which is pictured on their site attached to a metering back. They're saying the dimensions of the rear frame of their bellows is 324 x 324mms, or 12.75"x 12.75". Does that sound like the correct size for the metered back?
Thanks a lot for helping with this question, I'd really like to order a set of these, but as mentioned earlier in this post, I don't want to order all the way from China only to get the wrong thing.
Yep - its official. I just returned home last night and set up my 8x10. I extended the bellows, got a flashlight out and it is FULLA HOLES!!! crud, I shoulda checked that right off the bat. So that explains the odd 'marks' on my negatives! Sorry to waste everyone's time with that dumb question!
So Amadeus kindly enlightened me on the differences and dimensions between M and non-M Sinar backs, so at least I know what I'm looking for now. Custombellows came back with a quote about equivalent to the price of Sinar bellows on eBay, so that's possible, but I'll have to send my frames across the sea for two moths and have no camera in the interim.
Last question about ecbuyonline - I just emailed them again to ask, but a Google search turned up that a new set of bellows from them might arrive at my door withOUT the mounting frames. There have been a couple folks here who've bought these - did they come complete from ecbuyonline, or did you have to work on them first, to install on your camera? I'm afraid if I get these, they'll come without frames and I'll have to wreck mine off my old bellows and try to install on the new ones.
Jeff Dexheimer
22-Oct-2012, 04:42
Referring to your last question, I bought bellows from ecbuyonline. They worked great and looked as nice as any bellows I have ever seen. If I was doing camera repair I wouldn't hesitate to buy their bellows again.
dexmeister - thank you, that's quite encouraging. Do you recall whether the bellows you got from them came complete with frames, or did you have to install yours on the new bellows? Or send your old ones to have the frames installed?
ecbuyonline doesn't say anything about this in their listing, but an old thread from APUG mentioned they might not have any frames as shipped and you have to use your old ones. I'm not nuts about having to learn a whole new discipline before I can install a new bellows from this vendor.
Frank Petronio
22-Oct-2012, 05:06
Their 4x5 Linhof Technika bellows were sent without any other mounting hardware so you need to clarify what they do with Sinar bellows, I doubt they include the frames but am never sure. The Sinar frames are simple one-piece "squares" compared to the multiple piece Technika bellows mounting set-up, which was too fussy for me to want to do it again (I'd pay for real Linhof bellows).
I know that with the British bellows, you can send them your frames and they will glue them up - or you can do that yourself with simple contact cement and clamps/heavy books. I did that once and even I could manage, the flat surface area gives plenty of glue contact and it is easy to visually check that you did it right.
The advantage of the British bellows is that they would be new versus buying some used Sinar OEM bellows on eBay with unknown history. I don't know if 8x10 Sinar bellows are even available new and if you bought them retail I bet they would be very expensive.
You could maybe shoot 4x5 while the 8x10 bellows are being made?
Jeff Dexheimer
22-Oct-2012, 05:10
To clarify, I bought them for a tachihara and they came without any mounting hardware of any sort. I had to cement them myself. It was really easy to do.
dexmeister - thanks again and I suspected this might be the case with the ecbuyonline bellows. But then, maybe it won't be so bad if I have glue the frames on myself. Custombellows did indeed quote new bellows using my existing frames and the wait is up to two months. I guess there's no way to get around losing my 8x10 for a while. It's not much good to me now anyway!
And yes, new Sinar bellows run more then I paid for the whole camera, lenses, etc.! Not a likely option for me.
And you're right, I don't trust eBay with the "I don't know anything about this camera thingy, but it's used with no obvious RIPS OR TEARS for $350" bellows. Geez.
Thom Bennett
22-Oct-2012, 06:17
Maybe this should be a different thread but...has anyone used Turner Bellows in Rochester? http://www.turnerbellows.com/photographic_bellows.html. I got a quote comparable to Custom Bellows without the hassle of shipping across the pond.
Ecbuyonline does not supply frames, I asked once for my old Technika.
Gluing bellows to the frames is not what I'd call "fun", but well worth the effort, nonetheless.
Their products are very good, and if I needed bellows replacement, I'd order from them again.
B.S.Kumar
22-Oct-2012, 19:59
Asking once again, can anyone comment on the construction of the "ecbuyonline" bellows? Does it look like a single-layer synthetic material, or a conventional three-layer construction? Is it as flexible as the original? Thicker or thinner than the original?
Kumar
hi Kumar,
As I recall it was 2 layer stuff (not sure though!, the owner is quite responsive, just ask him), quite thin, much thinner than the original Technika bellows. No frames were provided, there is a .pdf on the internet description how to mount. It is not too hard, but it takes some effort.
The material was surprisingly hard to cut, even with a fresh scalpel blade. So it seems strong, it very flexible, how durable it is I do not know yet, got mine only 6 months ago. It made a decent fit, but I assume that original Linhof and /or Camera bellows fit perfect, but at a price.
Best,
Cor
Asking once again, can anyone comment on the construction of the "ecbuyonline" bellows? Does it look like a single-layer synthetic material, or a conventional three-layer construction? Is it as flexible as the original? Thicker or thinner than the original?
Kumar
Thom Bennett's reference to "Turner Bellows" looks pretty promising. For those of you interested, I'd check out the link he provided on the previous page of this post. Located in the US and from the quick look at their site, bellows look pretty robust and maybe less expensive than ecbuyonline or Custombellows.
Bill_1856
23-Oct-2012, 06:13
Sinar is still in business, so far as I know. Why not just buy theirs?
Cause a new one from Sinar costs about $1500. More then my camera is worth! I'm not made outta money! :)
B.S.Kumar
23-Oct-2012, 07:24
Thanks, Cor. I did a bit of searching myself - David here (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?91004-Chinese-Bellows-and-IR-film) says they're made of 3M material with yellow spongy stuff in between, but the folds are cloth. A bit confused about how only the folds could be made of cloth.
Best,
Kumar
hi Kumar,
As I recall it was 2 layer stuff (not sure though!, the owner is quite responsive, just ask him), quite thin, much thinner than the original Technika bellows. No frames were provided, there is a .pdf on the internet description how to mount. It is not too hard, but it takes some effort.
The material was surprisingly hard to cut, even with a fresh scalpel blade. So it seems strong, it very flexible, how durable it is I do not know yet, got mine only 6 months ago. It made a decent fit, but I assume that original Linhof and /or Camera bellows fit perfect, but at a price.
Best,
Cor
Thom Bennett's reference to "Turner Bellows" looks pretty promising. For those of you interested, I'd check out the link he provided on the previous page of this post. Located in the US and from the quick look at their site, bellows look pretty robust and maybe less expensive than ecbuyonline or Custombellows.
Turner bellows are good, they will not be less expensive; more like double.
Thom Bennett
23-Oct-2012, 12:01
The quotes I got for 8x10 bellows are $302 (if my converting GBP to US dollars was correct) + S/H (haven't looked into this yet) from Custom Bellows and $325 + S&H from Turner Bellows. Anyone use Turner in the past? I see plenty of references to Custom Bellows.
Peter De Smidt
23-Oct-2012, 14:55
From my experience, Western bellows are nicer than Turner bellows, and Custom Bellows are better than both of them. I've not tried the Chinese bellows.
Frank Petronio
23-Oct-2012, 19:36
Turner does not have a good rep, they make bellows for industrial machines more than cameras - the British place is the best, they make bellows for the OEM camera manufacturers. I've no experience w Western Bellows.
Thom Bennett
23-Oct-2012, 21:02
Frank, I was hoping you would chime in since Turner is in your backyard. Thanks for enlightening us. Michael A. Smith recommended Custom Bellows for the KMV.
fecaleagle
25-Oct-2012, 04:53
Not to hijack this thread, but I am very much on the fence between ecbuystore and custombellows.co.uk. I received a very reasonable quote from custombellows of ~$215 dollars for 5x7 with 20+ inches of draw (includes mounting). I want to send my frames so that I can ensure a good fit, but I am wary of sending my irreplaceable (on my budget) frames to China. Did any of you ecbuystore advocates send your frames for fitting?
Peter De Smidt
25-Oct-2012, 05:25
At that price, why not use the best, i.e. custom bellows?
fecaleagle
25-Oct-2012, 05:31
At that price, why not use the best, i.e. custom bellows?
Those are the exact thoughts that have me leaning on the side of custombellows.
Frank Petronio
25-Oct-2012, 05:53
Knock on wood, one of the last reliable things is good mail service between English/German/Japanese-speaking countries and the USA. Can't say the same for China or most of the rest of the World unless it is EMS, which is expensive.
Not to hijack this thread, but I am very much on the fence between ecbuystore and custombellows.co.uk. I received a very reasonable quote from custombellows of ~$215 dollars for 5x7 with 20+ inches of draw (includes mounting). I want to send my frames so that I can ensure a good fit, but I am wary of sending my irreplaceable (on my budget) frames to China. Did any of you ecbuystore advocates send your frames for fitting?
I don't remember ECbuyonline ever offering the frame-gluing service, though perhaps that policy has changed.
Nonetheless, I'm with Peter and the others on this: at that price, go for Custom Bellows, get the job done right the first time.
fecaleagle
25-Oct-2012, 09:07
I don't remember ECbuyonline ever offering the frame-gluing service, though perhaps that policy has changed.
Nonetheless, I'm with Peter and the others on this: at that price, go for Custom Bellows, get the job done right the first time.
I contacted ecbuyonline/ecbuystore a few months ago. They gave me a price estimate and stated (based on my inquiry) that having the frames would ensure that they could produce the bellows exactly to size. They did not offer to glue them for me, just use them to fit the bellows. I asked custombellows the same, and they tacked on the frame-gluing for ~16 USD in the estimate. Sounds like a deal, because I would probably spend an hour assessing the situation, 20 minutes getting all of my nerves out, half an hour gluing them, 10 minutes sniffing about to see how bad pliobond really smells, 2-4 hours for the basic clamp and cure (checking in on them every 20 minutes or so). If you take all that time and worry into consideration, $16 sounds like a pretty good deal to have them glued by a professional. Thanks for all the responses.
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