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View Full Version : GRAFLEX 4X5 CROWN GRAPHIC price question?



stradibarrius
15-Oct-2012, 09:06
What is a reasonable price for a nice Crown Graphic without a lens or board?

BrianShaw
15-Oct-2012, 10:58
Which price... for buying or selling?

stradibarrius
15-Oct-2012, 11:29
Buying...but a reasonable price is a reasonable price regardless.

BrianShaw
15-Oct-2012, 11:33
The reason I ask is partly because I'm convinced that the Crowns have become more "valuable" than they are worth.

Peter York
15-Oct-2012, 11:38
An Crown in excellent condition with lens and a top-mounted rangefinder goes for about $400. Maybe $275-325 for one with the side rangefinder. I'd say about $200 for one in great shape without lens or lens board, but the price range varies quite a bit. You could probably get one for $75-150 if you are patient.

SpeedGraphicMan
15-Oct-2012, 11:55
$150-175

Anything more is a ripoff...

Due to the recent boom in LF camera buying. Most are unfortunately now $250 Plus.

Alan Gales
15-Oct-2012, 12:13
There is one listed on Ebay without lens, buy it now for $299.00. It is a later model with top rangefinder and it looks to be in pretty good shape.

It has been on there for quite a while so obviously the Seller is asking too much.

Sellers are asking $500-$600 for nice late models with Zenars on Ebay. Notice I said "asking".

You need to be patient like Peter recommends if you want a good deal.

Frank Petronio
15-Oct-2012, 12:16
Last week a clean one with a good Xenar sold Buy It Now for $295, others went at auction in the low $300s. You might as well get one with a lens/top rangefinder since nearly all of them are cammed ~ hold out for a clean nice one.

If the description and photos are murky you could go $150 and buy two, chances are you'd get a good one plus parts.

stradibarrius
15-Oct-2012, 12:23
Thanks, the one I am looking at is really nice for $265.

stradibarrius
15-Oct-2012, 12:34
Frank, I know you are a fan of this camera. In your opinion what are the drawbacks from this camera?

BrianShaw
15-Oct-2012, 13:13
I'm not Frank, but the drawback for me is the cost. A decent Anniversary Graphic, for instance, will do the same (if it has been retrofit with a Grafolk back) at a much smaller price. Or a decent Pacemaker Speed...

Dan Fromm
15-Oct-2012, 14:04
Hey Brian, Crowns are better for short lenses. A 4x5 Crown's minimum extension is 52.4 mm, a 4x5 Anny's is 65.1. A 4x5 Pacemaker Speed's is 66.7.

He really needs two Graphics, a Crown for short lenses and a Speed to get that extra little bit of extension for long lenses and for barrel lenses.

I thought he had a 4x5 Cambo, if so all a Crown brings to his party is a little portability and practically no movements to think about. Still and all, chacun a son gout. ("a" is the third person singular of avoir, means has, as in jack's son has the gout).

Cheers,

Dan

Frank Petronio
15-Oct-2012, 14:07
I like the Crown with the top rangefinder better because the rangefinder is cam-based instead of being adjusted or misadjusted. My experience is that I can buy a top rangefinder and expect the right cam to be installed most of the time, whereas buying a side (Kalhart) rangefinder model they usually aren't adjusted properly or the rangefinder is so dirty/hardware fouled that it's a bad risk unless you know the seller did things right (almost all sellers claim ignorance). Also the top rangefinder models were the last made, and I look for things like Schneider Xenars with high serial numbers (7M+) to associated with the cameras. The later ones also have a Fresnel installed on the inside of the camera and they tend to be cleaner and work nicer. Personally I look for really clean cameras and still budget for the shutter and lens to be cleaned and adjusted (they are all at least 40 years old).

In terms of actual use, a properly set-up side rangefinder will work about as well as the top rangefinder. Likewise a Speed Graphic or an older Graphic or even a Busch Pressman are all pretty similar in handling - I think the Crown is one of the lighter ones but it probably doesn't matter much. Likewise an Optar or Ektar may even be better than the Xenar (which was the "value" lens I think) - depends on condition and luck, I think.

I know there are bargains but even if you pay $400 for a nice Crown with a nice lens, they are still a bargain compared to most other things out there.

That said, and even though I am tempted to pick another one up again, I remind myself that there is no good reason to shoot large format handheld and all it does is waste film making mediocre shots that would be done far better with a good roll film or digital camera. The novelty is fun for a bit but I've wasted a lot of time and money shooting handheld 4x5 and it's just that - a novelty, a cool thing to do - but if you want to make good, sharp photos spontaneously and in difficult conditions without jerking around - either put a metal 4x5 camera on a solid tripod, use a Mamiya/Fuji rangefinder, or get a good Canikon DSLR. The rest is poseur bullshit! Sorry ;-p

Seriously, I love using a Graflex Super D or Crown (or even a converted Polaroid 110) but I can't say they make better photos other than the experience of shooting them is fun and it helps you appreciate how far photography has come since. But for actually making good photos consistently in less than optimal conditions, they are a diversion, not a cure.

stradibarrius
15-Oct-2012, 14:21
I have 3 great monorails, Cambo SC, Sinar F2 and a CC400, I am just thinking about portability and was thinking of using it like a field camera. I am not sold on the idea though...none of my cameras will fold up. I guess I could take them apart, put them in a backpack and work that way???

Corran
15-Oct-2012, 14:23
That's funny because both of the top RF Crowns I've bought had mismatched lenses/cams. So don't assume!

I finally rigorously tested my Speed with a 127mm Ektar and side-mounted RF. It's dead-on at every aperture and distance. I was kind of surprised. Still doesn't beat my Polaroid 900 and Xenotar, sorry!! I like the Speed though (a green Army Signal Corps model) sometimes when I'm shooting things that are more journalism-type stuff. Call me crazy but it feels more "period." The Polaroid gets a bunch of comments from hipsters which are annoying, the Speed gets interest from old-timers who used to work in newspaper.

I was lusting after a Mamiya 7 a few weeks ago but finally realized that I don't need it. I know Frank will laugh at this but, I don't shoot enough on roll film to make it worth my time to shoot it. I'd rather careful shoot 4-5 shots on my Polaroid or Speed, maybe with a monopod if I need, than trying to burn 10 shots* with a rangefinder that is almost as big with a lens as a folded up Graphic anyway, and then of course I can't N- develop like I want if I shoot roll film in varying light. To appease my need to have a pocketable camera though and take as big of a sheet of film as possible, I just bought a Bessa RF w/105mm f/3.5 lens (which of course is faster than any lens on the Mamiya to boot). Should fit in my cargo pants pockets :).

*4 shots, T-Max 4x5 -> $6
1 roll of T-Max 120 -> $5, probably mostly wasting shots to get it finished up
Might as well shoot 4x5!

BrianShaw
15-Oct-2012, 14:28
I use a couple of "Speed Graphics" handheld and, although it isn't as perfect a solution as a tripod-mounted view camera, have never considered it a waste of time or a waste of film or a guarantee of mediocrity. Sometimes that happens, but sometimes good things happen too.

BrianShaw
15-Oct-2012, 14:29
p.s. I don't consider any of the press cameras as a very good substitute for a field camera -- they are quite different cameras.

Frank Petronio
15-Oct-2012, 14:39
That's funny because both of the top RF Crowns I've bought had mismatched lenses/cams. So don't assume!

I finally rigorously tested my Speed with a 127mm Ektar and side-mounted RF. It's dead-on at every aperture and distance. I was kind of surprised. Still doesn't beat my Polaroid 900 and Xenotar, sorry!! I like the Speed though (a green Army Signal Corps model) sometimes when I'm shooting things that are more journalism-type stuff. Call me crazy but it feels more "period." The Polaroid gets a bunch of comments from hipsters which are annoying, the Speed gets interest from old-timers who used to work in newspaper.

I was lusting after a Mamiya 7 a few weeks ago but finally realized that I don't need it. I know Frank will laugh at this but, I don't shoot enough on roll film to make it worth my time to shoot it. I'd rather careful shoot 4-5 shots on my Polaroid or Speed, maybe with a monopod if I need, than trying to burn 10 shots* with a rangefinder that is almost as big with a lens as a folded up Graphic anyway, and then of course I can't N- develop like I want if I shoot roll film in varying light. To appease my need to have a pocketable camera though and take as big of a sheet of film as possible, I just bought a Bessa RF w/105mm f/3.5 lens (which of course is faster than any lens on the Mamiya to boot). Should fit in my cargo pants pockets :).

*4 shots, T-Max 4x5 -> $6
1 roll of T-Max 120 -> $5, probably mostly wasting shots to get it finished up
Might as well shoot 4x5!

Dude, I saw your for sale lists... you've had an impressive array of medium format cameras too. A little crotchedy, old fart advice... sell it all for whatever price you can get, simplify and streamline! Less cameras = more photography.

Oren Grad
15-Oct-2012, 15:48
I like the Crown with the top rangefinder better because the rangefinder is cam-based instead of being adjusted or misadjusted.

With a top-RF Graphic, even if the cam is properly matched to the lens, the RF mechanism can still be out of adjustment. As it can be and often is on any random Horseman, or Technika, or any other cam-based RF camera.

Dan Fromm
15-Oct-2012, 15:51
I have 3 great monorails, Cambo SC, Sinar F2 and a CC400, I am just thinking about portability and was thinking of using it like a field camera. I am not sold on the idea though...none of my cameras will fold up. I guess I could take them apart, put them in a backpack and work that way???If you take the Cambo's bellows off and swing the standards 90 degrees so that the uprights are over the rail the camera will fit in quite a thin flat case. The friend who gave me my SC-1 kept it, standard and bag bellows, ... in a briefcase. Not as compact as a Graphic, not as bulky as it could be.

And if you take an end cap off the CC400's rail you can remove the standards and tripod block. The standards + bellows aren't much bulkier than a 4x5 Graphic and the rail, although a bit long, isn't that much of an encumbrance.

Sorry, I don't have a Sinar. I'll bet that similar tricks will work with yours. Monorails don't have to be transported fully rigged and hanging upside down in a bulky case.

stradibarrius
15-Oct-2012, 16:30
Dan, do you carry your Cambo in some type of pack? one thing about the Cambo I don't like is to shot my 90mm I have to put both standards on one side of the central mounting bracket. The F2 comes apart easy enough.

Dan Fromm
15-Oct-2012, 17:27
Barry, I don't. Two reasons. I don't have a decent briefcase, as my friend did. And these days I rarely stray far far from the car with the Cambo.

It lives like a bat, upside down in a slightly portable cave. I wander with my little Graphics. If I had to wander with the Cambo, I'd probably flatten it and put it in a Pelican case (or rough equivalent), and put it on the cart under the toolbag with the Graphics and lenses and ...

stradibarrius
15-Oct-2012, 18:00
I have taken my Sinar in it's big case strapped on a small luggage carrier on the streets of downtown Atlanta.

Corran
15-Oct-2012, 18:14
Dude, I saw your for sale lists... you've had an impressive array of medium format cameras too. A little crotchedy, old fart advice... sell it all for whatever price you can get, simplify and streamline! Less cameras = more photography.

There's an extenuating circumstance for all that, let me tell you. I don't shoot with any of those anyway, hence being for sale. The MF market seems to be dead and buried though right now. I can't even unload things way under market value. I'm not going to give away stuff. I can wait. Just sold some more of the Norita stuff to a guy in Malaysia.

Michael Cienfuegos
15-Oct-2012, 21:26
I sold my Crown because it was gathering dust. I have two Speeds, one Pacemaker and one pre-Anny. I really didn't need the Crown, it was in good shape, paid $75 for it, sold it for $100. :)

stradibarrius
16-Oct-2012, 04:47
Maybe I am confused so help me understand. I was thinking that I could use a Crown as a tripod mounted field camera. I know it would not have the movements as a "true" field camera. Also I had thought of focusing through on the ground glass so why would the range finder be important?

I saw a show the other night about the 10 top photos of 2012 for National Geo and one of the selected photographers was using a Linhof camera that looked similar to a Crown, Speed, Graphlex?

Dan Fromm
16-Oct-2012, 05:32
Barry, welcome to the land of thread drift and of people who don't pay much attention to what the original poster wrote.

You've described how I use my little Graphics. On tripod, focused using the GG. I'm not the only person to have used a Graphic that way.

But since you already have three very usable 4x5 monorails, you should ask yourself why none of them will do for this application. Focus on what you want to accomplish, not on the tools. Photography isn't wood-working.

Frank Petronio
16-Oct-2012, 05:41
Photography isn't wood-working. Haha it seems that way though.

Sure, of course you can put a Crown on a tripod and use it like most other view cameras. You have limited front movements - a front tilt is possible but inconvenient (you have to drop the front bed down and raise the front standard, eyeballing it mostly). It is (fairly) light, cheap, and rugged. If you don't use many movements and short to medium lenses then it's great. Some people value Crown Graphics for wide angle lenses (without movements) especially because of the design of the focusing track, which allows you to maintain geared focusing even when the front standard is pushed back inside the camera (as a wide angle lens might require).

The Linhof Technika series is also a wonderfully rugged and very high quality "technical" camera with a wider range of movements (not as complete or as wide as a monorail) that folds into a compact package and can also have rangefinder focusing for handheld work. They are much more expensive, complex, and also a couple of pounds heavier. But they are the closest thing you'll find to a Leica in large format. A clean 1950s Technika IV with a cammed lens and a good bellows will cost over $1000. They still make the Master Technika for example, its new price is almost $10k.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/31444-USA/Linhof_000054_4x5_Master_Technika_Classic.html

BrianShaw
16-Oct-2012, 06:47
Maybe I am confused so help me understand. I was thinking that I could use a Crown as a tripod mounted field camera. I know it would not have the movements as a "true" field camera. Also I had thought of focusing through on the ground glass so why would the range finder be important?

Sure, you can very effectively use it on a tripod and view/focus with the ground glass... without much in the way of movements. That lack of movements is the difference between a tripod-mounted press camera and a field view camera. But the distinction is fairly academic. If you aren't in need of many movements you can take fantastic pictures with a tripod-mounted press camera.

The rangefinder is only important if you are planning on hand-holding and using the camera as a press camera.

Jim Jones
16-Oct-2012, 07:15
Stradibarrius -- Since you already have view cameras, there may be little hurry to buy a press camera. Bargains do appear for the vigilant, patient, and knowedgeable buyer. I was tempted to bid on the SG that recently sold on ebay for $81 with four film holders and free shipping. It would have brought more with a better description. Last year I bought one with lens and still in useable condition for about the same price. It helps to study the complete range of SG models so you can interpret the description and pictures. It also helps to intimately know these cameras so you can recognize potential problems in ads. Graphic Graflex Photography by Morgan & Morgan (or Morgan & Lester in older editions) is the standard reference source. The 8th edition covers the Pacemaker series SG and Crown with side rangefinder. The 11th edition covers the models with top rangefinder.

The Anniversary model is convenient if you don't use front tilt. Since the front doesn't tilt, it should always remain aligned. This is handy for quick work with only one lens. Using several lenses works if you remove the infinity stops or set them for the longest lens. The hood on the Graphic back gets in the way when focusing with the ground glass. The 4" square lens board is easy to make, and interchangeable with many other cameras of that era.

The later Crown and Speed Graphics have front tilts that might be useful with a lens that has adequate coverage. By dropping the front and tinkering with its rise and tilt, you have the inconvenient equivalent of rear tilt. This won't tax the limited lens coverage of an original Ektar or Optar. The infinity stops are greatly improved over the Anniversary model. The lens boards for these cameras is unique to them. They can be improvised from flat sheet aluminum with a foam rubber (or mat board) baffle on the back of the board.

Several parts can be swapped between Anniversary and later SGs. It may seem sacrilegeous to thus butcher a classic camera, but it's better to continue using them rather than let them gather dust on a display shelf.

Michael W
16-Oct-2012, 07:17
Maybe I am confused so help me understand. I was thinking that I could use a Crown as a tripod mounted field camera. I know it would not have the movements as a "true" field camera. Also I had thought of focusing through on the ground glass so why would the range finder be important?

I saw a show the other night about the 10 top photos of 2012 for National Geo and one of the selected photographers was using a Linhof camera that looked similar to a Crown, Speed, Graphlex?
I bought a Crown years ago as a cheap way into LF. I use it exactly as you described - on a tripod with ground glass. The only useful movement is front rise. The main thing that annoys me about the camera is that it doesn't have a rotating back. I dislike having to turn the camera on its side for vertical framing, which also loses the rise. I think I'll buy a Wista or similar field camera with rotating back and movements and sell the Crown.

David Schaller
16-Oct-2012, 10:34
I bought a Crown years ago as a cheap way into LF. I use it exactly as you described - on a tripod with ground glass. The only useful movement is front rise. The main thing that annoys me about the camera is that it doesn't have a rotating back. I dislike having to turn the camera on its side for vertical framing, which also loses the rise. I think I'll buy a Wista or similar field camera with rotating back and movements and sell the Crown.
+1. If you are going to use it on a tripod, and like vertical compositions, you might be better off with a regular field camera. I was frustrated with the lack of even basic movements, and no rotating back.
Dave

Jim Andrada
16-Oct-2012, 12:59
I have both a Crown and a Super - I rather like the Crown better as it's lighter and the inner rails move so you can focus down to about a 65mm lens (shortest one I have is a 75mm - works fine!)

But - rotating back and front tilt (albeit fiddly) are in the end more important so I use the Super all the time unless I really want to go very wide. I can focus my 100 mm wide field Ektar on the Super and that's usually wide enough

Oh yeah - I like being able to take the focusing hood off the camera and use a dark cloth as well. Another plus for the Super. I have a Linhof hand grip on it and while it's heavier than the Crown it isn't too hard to carry

Jim Jones
16-Oct-2012, 17:35
I bought a Crown years ago as a cheap way into LF. I use it exactly as you described - on a tripod with ground glass. The only useful movement is front rise. The main thing that annoys me about the camera is that it doesn't have a rotating back. I dislike having to turn the camera on its side for vertical framing, which also loses the rise. I think I'll buy a Wista or similar field camera with rotating back and movements and sell the Crown.

The late metal body Burke & James press cameras had a revolving back and better front tilt than the SG. However, they came only with a spring back and didn't have the infinity stops of the SG. Build quality of the SG is better, and more accessories are available.

premortho
17-Oct-2012, 14:49
+1 on B&J Press45's. I have a Pacemaker speed Graphic and a B&J Speed Press 45. The Graflex made camera is faster and easier to use handheld. But on a tripod, the B&J is much more versatile. And if you need the Grafloc back, buy a Graphic, If you use sheet film, well, spring backs work fine. So to me, the choices are easy...street shooting, use a graphic. Hand and stand camera, well the rotating back on the B&J is a plus, as well as many more front standard movements.