Looking for high output flash bulbs

[monkeymon]

Hello!

Does anyone has information on what type of flash bulbs i would get the most light output? Speed is not an issue, i have no synchronization.. so i'm planning just to open shutter, pop a flash and close it. I just need some information on what type of bulbs should i try to find as i just need A LOT OF LIGHT!

I was checking out some WESTINGHOUSE #11 bulbs, they seem available and powerfull... anything more powerfull out there?

Started to think about the speed allso, are the slower ones enough fast still to make a portrait?

[Mark Woods]

Is there a problem with using a strobe?

[monkeymon]

Is there a problem with using a strobe?

Too low power output..

[K. Praslowicz]

http://www.meggaflash.com/ has some extremely huge powered flash if I recall. Not cheap though.

Or maybe mix your own and be a fire hazard.
http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1113/3169218605_d2095eab6f.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11964447@N02/3169218605/)
1909 Victor Flash Lamp (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11964447@N02/3169218605/) by Couch Commando (http://www.flickr.com/people/11964447@N02/), on Flickr

[David R Munson]

OP, you need Ascor strobes (http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=545871). Just don't let them arc, especially not through your body (http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=206012).

[Mark Woods]

I've done shots with over 50K watt seconds. You can stack strobes until you have more light than the sun.

[monkeymon]

I've done shots with over 50K watt seconds. You can stack strobes until you have more light than the sun.

Yeah, and ill buy em & carry em.. and find power for them?

[monkeymon]

http://www.meggaflash.com/ has some extremely huge powered flash if I recall. Not cheap though.

Or maybe mix your own and be a fire hazard.
http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1113/3169218605_d2095eab6f.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11964447@N02/3169218605/)
1909 Victor Flash Lamp (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11964447@N02/3169218605/) by Couch Commando (http://www.flickr.com/people/11964447@N02/), on Flickr

Hah, yeah.. my father actually just had some magnesium powder as he has to make some movie props flash thing... but no, i need something practical and cheap.

The whole point is that bulbs are compact, powerfull and cheap enough for me.

[BrianShaw]

Why not string a bunch of 11s or P25's together until you have sufficient light?

[David R Munson]

Yeah, and ill buy em & carry em.. and find power for them?

I've been surprised what can be run off a gas generator. Can you quantify just how much light you need?

In studios, I've been on shoots where we've had as many as 18x 2,400ws Profoto packs going, but there's major power supply in big rental studios.

You could pick up a couple 4800ws Speedotron packs and bi-tube heads relatively inexpensively (compared to other strobe options). Keep the recycle set to slow and don't pop the shutter too quickly (I doubt that'd be a problem, though!) and you might be surprised where you can pull off plugging in.

[Mark Woods]

David is absolutely correct. Instead of shooting and replacing all of those globes, the strobes recycle. I've used 5K Honda generators to get my 50K ws. Do some research. How much light do you need over how much area? That will give you your answer.

[Kevin Crisp]

The fact of the matter is that flashbulbs can put out a lot of light. They're cheap. With Honeywell tilt-o-mite, one size fits all, just figure out your guide numbers. The No. 5's are readily available on ebay. I'm not sure he was looking to get talked out of something. Look what Winston O. Link did with them.

[monkeymon]

I've been surprised what can be run off a gas generator. Can you quantify just how much light you need?

In studios, I've been on shoots where we've had as many as 18x 2,400ws Profoto packs going, but there's major power supply in big rental studios.

You could pick up a couple 4800ws Speedotron packs and bi-tube heads relatively inexpensively (compared to other strobe options). Keep the recycle set to slow and don't pop the shutter too quickly (I doubt that'd be a problem, though!) and you might be surprised where you can pull off plugging in.


I wan't just one handheld flash, not huge strobes. I'm shooting at iso 3 on 20x24" camera with 750mm f11 lens... something like 2m maybe. So i thought that flasbulbs would be the way to go.. i'm not really planning on huge strobes and powercords. There's enough work with the big ass camera already..

The ONLY thing i need to know, is which of these vintage bulbs (which i can get cheap from ebay) pack the most kick?! And i'm planning on using just one flash, one bulb... so i just go by what is the most powerfull and adapt to that. But it seems hard to find proper information on the power (guide numbers) of these bulbs... so thats why i'm asking, if someone has some first hand information.

Right now, i'm looking at #11 WESTINGHOUSE bulbs, are there something more powerfull out there?

[Kevin Crisp]

I think the 5 series have the most output, then the 3's, the the little ones like the AG's. If you give me a day I can get you guide numbers off the packages I have at home in the darkroom. It is a long duration flash, unlike a strobe, and bright too.

[monkeymon]

I think the 5 series have the most output, then the 3's, the the little ones like the AG's. If you give me a day I can get you guide numbers off the packages I have at home in the darkroom. It is a long duration flash, unlike a strobe, and bright too.


Thanks, that would be great!... are these series numbers some kind of standards that all manufacturers used? And do you think that these long duration flashes can still keep a standing person still? Or should i be looking for fast bulbs? I mean, people probably will blind or something when blasted with these amounts of light...

Though, i'm using a shutter made from old anniversary Speed Graphic.. so maybe i could sync the shutter somehow to these bulbs, and avoid most of the movement blur

[Kevin Crisp]

Everything you need to know is probably available from this link:

http://www.graflex.org/flash/technical.html

I think the No. 5's are the most commonly found "big" bulbs and they are quite powerful. I think the light duration is in the 1/125th range, but it doesn't all come on at once like a strobe. They will leave people who see them go off will be blinking and seeing dots for MUCH longer than most strobes.

You take the guide number (which depends on film speed) and you divide by the number of feet to the subject and you get your f stop. If you buy a Honeywell tilt o mite flash ($10 or so) it has a nice adjustable guide wheel on the back for using the guide numbers. Even blue tinted bulbs don't look very natural with modern color films in my experience with old AG1 bulbs.

[Jim Noel]

A #5 certainly has more output than a #3, but they are not the most powerful made. I used to light up the stands onthe far side of a football field with #5' which are more powerful than the strongest handheld strobe ever built.
I don't remember the numbers, but it seems that #11, which are as large as a 150 watt bulb are the strongest in output. You should check the statistics somewhere to be positive. Also don't forget that if a bulb is fired andothers are laying in contact with it, they will all fire simultaneously with no more wiring. That could be your answer.

[Kevin Crisp]

I didn't think I suggested No. 5's were the most powerful made. They aren't, obviously, if you look at the monsters on the Graphlex web page. But they are the biggest I think are commonly around, and they were still in production as of a few years ago.

And don't ever put the spares in your pocket, just a little static snap and off they go....

[Bill_1856]

Since you're doing "open flash" you don't need the strongest bulb, just use a sequence of open shutter/flash bulb/close shutter over and over until you have sufficiently illuminated the subject.

[David R Munson]

Multiple pops work great for still life, less so for people, who might move in between exposures.

[Doug Herta]

For light output, flexibility, and reliability I would think the #5 or #25 bayonet mount flashes would be your best bet. If your have $$$ the Meggaflash edison base (regular lightbulb base) put out loads of light and are still being produced in Ireland. Unfortunately the older stock edison base bulbs that you can find on Ebay are fairly expensive and I have had a high ratio of duds. The ones that fire are not really that much brighter than a fresher set of newer #5 or #25 - probably because they are over 50 years old.


For an explanation of what these numbers and socket types mean, follow Kevin's suggestion and go to: http://www.graflex.org/flash/technical.html

[Mark Woods]

I'm not trying to talk anyone to do anything. How many exposures are going to be made? The area to be shot? Etc. He's not provided any of that information. I'm through discussing this until the relevant parameters are outlined.

[SergeiR]

Why not string a bunch of 11s or P25's together until you have sufficient light?
inverse square law. In order to gain 2 stops you will need 4 similar output heads.. to get 4 stop - you will need... half of trunk..

[SergeiR]

Too low power output..

What exactly you trying to light and why you need so much output? If its not a secret.

[monkeymon]

What exactly you trying to light and why you need so much output? If its not a secret.

Just portraits, and i don't need THAT much.. just enough for iso 3 and sopping my lens down a couple of stops. I like the idea of flashbulbs, as the flash is really compact for the power they put out. And no need for electricity. I start out by shooting just paper, but then i will be getting some ortho film that is slow but cheap. But as i'm shooting big, 20x24" i really like to stop down as much as possible... thus, i'm just looking the most compact way of doing this. And i like using hand flashes, so flashbulbs seem ideal!

[monkeymon]

For light output, flexibility, and reliability I would think the #5 or #25 bayonet mount flashes would be your best bet. If your have $$$ the Meggaflash edison base (regular lightbulb base) put out loads of light and are still being produced in Ireland. Unfortunately the older stock edison base bulbs that you can find on Ebay are fairly expensive and I have had a high ratio of duds. The ones that fire are not really that much brighter than a fresher set of newer #5 or #25 - probably because they are over 50 years old.


For an explanation of what these numbers and socket types mean, follow Kevin's suggestion and go to: http://www.graflex.org/flash/technical.html

So you mean that these bulbs degrade over time?

I was aware of the graflex site, but there is still so little information.. or maybe i just don't understand it completely. I was trying to find somekind of GN chart for different kind of bulbs... So i thought i would ask.

[Dan Fromm]

Just portraits, and i don't need THAT much.. just enough for iso 3 and sopping my lens down a couple of stops. I like the idea of flashbulbs, as the flash is really compact for the power they put out. And no need for electricity. I start out by shooting just paper, but then i will be getting some ortho film that is slow but cheap. But as i'm shooting big, 20x24" i really like to stop down as much as possible... thus, i'm just looking the most compact way of doing this. And i like using hand flashes, so flashbulbs seem ideal!

Flash to subject distance ~ 2m (= 80", ~ 6.5')? f/11 lens sopped down a couple of stops? f/22, at the widest. GN needed? ~ 143 @ ISO 3, feet.

A #5 won't do it, see http://www.graflex.org/flash/ge-5.html

Now go to meggaflash.com, read, follow the links, weep, stop waving your hands and start calculating

[monkeymon]

Flash to subject distance ~ 2m (= 80", ~ 6.5')? f/11 lens sopped down a couple of stops? f/22, at the widest. GN needed? ~ 143 @ ISO 3, feet.

A #5 won't do it, see http://www.graflex.org/flash/ge-5.html

Now go to meggaflash.com, read, follow the links, weep, stop waving your hands and start calculating

Waving my hands?

http://lommen9.home.xs4all.nl/GRAFLITE/page2.html

Here's where i found out about the Westinghouse #11, it has a GN of 330 (feets) sot it's 100 in meters. Thats pretty good already. I was just asking is there anything more powerfull, and i said in vintage bulbs that are cheap in ebay, not expensive meggaflash.com bulbs.. but theres like one person who actually tries to answer and 10 who doesn't know anything but still answers.

Ok, it seems no.22 is the strongest. Not 5 like everyone here claims.

Simple question, i would have appreciated a simple answer..

[Dan Fromm]

Waving my hands?

Here's where i found out about the Westinghouse #11, it has a GN of 330 (feets) sot it's 100 in meters.

Simple question, i would have appreciated a simple answer..

GN of 100 (meters) at what ISO? Not ISO 3, and that's what you're shooting.

I gave you a simple answer. What you want to do is impossible. You're still (choose one) waving your hands or indulging in wishful thinking. Don't use untested assumptions, do the arithmetic.

And educate yourself more about old flash ratings. The Jo Lommen link you posted gives two sets of GNs for the #11. One for b/w film, the other for color. This because b/w film is negative, has more exposure latitude than color, which in those days was reversal. It used to be assumed that b/w negative film could be underexposed by roughly one stop with no loss. That couldn't be done with reversal film. That's why the two sets of GNs.

And educate yourself more about old film speed ratings. For the most b/w emulsions, 1960 and later ASA speeds are one stop faster than pre-1960.

Now go do your homework.

[BrianShaw]

inverse square law. In order to gain 2 stops you will need 4 similar output heads.. to get 4 stop - you will need... half of trunk..

Ummm. OK. But that is a traditional solution that worked for decades. Besides, it is 10x easier to find Nr 5/25 bulbs than it is to find 11's. Plus they are a lot more affordable. An 11 buys only about 1 stop more light. Besides... as someone else pointed out... so far we know nothing about the conditions and too much about the constraints... and enough about the OPs current knowledge/research about flash bulb photography.

[BrianShaw]

Ok, it seems no.22 is the strongest. Not 5 like everyone here claims.

Simple question, i would have appreciated a simple answer..

That is true... for the bulbs that were in common production. Is that simple enough?

[BrianShaw]

Now go do your homework.

... and whatever you do, don't forget to understand the effect of reflector type/size and shutter speed.

[Dan Fromm]

Ummm. OK. But that is a traditional solution that worked for decades. Besides, it is 10x easier to find Nr 5/25 bulbs than it is to find 11's. Plus they are a lot more affordable. An 11 buys only about 1 stop more light. Besides... as someone else pointed out... so far we know nothing about the conditions and too much about the constraints... and enough about the OPs current knowledge/research about flash bulb photography.

Actually, Brian, he laid it out fairly cleanly. ISO 3, flash-to-subject distance ~ 2m, desired working aperture no larger than f/22, preferably much smaller. He's shooting 20x24, doesn't need a lot of resolution.

If I read the published GNs for #5s correctly, he can't meet his minimum objective (f/22) with just one #5.

[BrianShaw]

Ya, I saw that only after responding to Sergei. Still... given the option of ganging cheap bulbs or trying to find expensive bulbs I'd opt for ganging cheap bulbs. Even Nr 11s are getting hard to find and expensive.

[BrianShaw]

Hint: seek out a Kodak Professional Photoguide dated 1982 or earlier. They have a really cool calculator that makes flash bulb photography a lot easier. That is what I use and they really work (verified using E-6 film).

[Kevin Crisp]

For $5 bucks or less this unit has a nice flash calculator on the back. Take the guide number off the package of bulbs, enter the ASA of the film and away you go:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-HONEYWELL-TILT-A-MITE-CAMERA-FLASH-/120994598688?pt=Digital_Camera_Flashes&hash=item1c2bd70f20

and with a new battery it will fire them at the push of a button.

[BrianShaw]

Doesn't that take one of those hard-to-find batteries? The calculator, unfortunatley does not account for the type of reflector that one would be using with a larger bulb. Those are nice flash units for the small bulbs though.

[monkeymon]

GN of 100 (meters) at what ISO? Not ISO 3, and that's what you're shooting.

Guide numbers are given for iso100, that is the standard. At least nowadays, so thats what i communicate.

"Guide numbers can be given in feet or metres, and are usually given for ISO 100 sensitivity." from wikipedia...

But i'm going to get some #22 and maybe some #11 bulbs and do some test, i think they will work just fine for me.

[BrianShaw]

Use this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-GE-NO-75-MAZDA-FLASH-BULB-PHOTO-FLASH-LAMP-MINT-/190589583647?pt=Camera_Flash_Accessories&hash=item2c6006411f

[BrianShaw]

... or this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEGGAFLASH-PF330-FLOODFLASH-FLASH-BULB-PHOTOFLASH-1-75-SEC-BURN-RATE-1-MINT-BULB-/190730627354?pt=Camera_Flash_Accessories&hash=item2c686e691a

[Kevin Crisp]

$45 for one bulb? Wow. I don't think I could say "cheese."

[David Lobato]

O. Winston Link took remarkable LF camera night photos of trains. He used dozens of high powered flash bulbs wired together to light the very large scale subjects. I once saw a detailed description about his flash setups but can't find it at the moment. Google him and flashbulbs.

[BrianShaw]

$45 for one bulb? Wow. I don't think I could say "cheese."

I could say "cheese" but I certainly couldn't smile! I feel cheated when a 75 cent bulb fails to fire.

[monkeymon]

One thing came to my mind, is the mazda screw base standard e27? I understood that these bulbs can be triggered starting from 3v... so i, as a cheap man could save money and make my own flash system from a normal e27 base hotlight reflector?

[BrianShaw]

I don't know that base nomenclature, but if you are talking about the aluminum reflectored, clip-on worklights that a "normal" lightbulb screws into... then yes. The reflector is not as good as a real photo reflector but it will work. I would trigger with more than 3V though to be sure it pops, especially of stringing more than one together.

[monkeymon]

I don't know that base nomenclature, but if you are talking about the aluminum reflectored, clip-on worklights that a "normal" lightbulb screws into... then yes. The reflector is not as good as a real photo reflector but it will work. I would trigger with more than 3V though to be sure it pops, especially of stringing more than one together.

Thanks! I have couple of nice hotlight reflectors i can use with e27 base, that give me more control over the beam angle. I'm getting a little exited about the possibilities these thing give me! I'll make something like 7.2v triger system just to play it safe. I would have thought they would have needed some capacitors and high voltage for triggering, but this will make it really easy for me.

[BrianShaw]

I would have thought they would have needed some capacitors and high voltage for triggering, but this will make it really easy for me.

I think you could use a couple of frayed wires and an old car battery if you really want to keep life simple.

I've heard stories from people who screwed flash bulbs into table lamps and other household light sockets. Whoever flipped the switch was probably blinded for a month of Sundays.

[E. von Hoegh]

I don't know that base nomenclature, but if you are talking about the aluminum reflectored, clip-on worklights that a "normal" lightbulb screws into... then yes. The reflector is not as good as a real photo reflector but it will work. I would trigger with more than 3V though to be sure it pops, especially of stringing more than one together.

You can shine up those aluminium reflectors with 0000 steelwool to give them a bit more pep. A 6v lantern battery should do a fine job triggering the bulbs. You may want to put a screen over the reflectors in case a bulb shatters, they do that once in a while.

[Marc B.]

The first link below, (and, sub-links within), may answer many of your questions.

http://www.darklightimagery.net/flashbulbs.html

http://www.meggaflash.com/general%20information%20on%20flashbulbs.htm
http://www.ephotozine.com/article/a-shot-in-the-dark---guide-to-cave-photography-4680

[monkeymon]

You can shine up those aluminium reflectors with 0000 steelwool to give them a bit more pep. A 6v lantern battery should do a fine job triggering the bulbs. You may want to put a screen over the reflectors in case a bulb shatters, they do that once in a while.

I thought about the screen, i'm shooting people.. and i don't wan't to shoot 'em dead. My reflector is good as it it's.. it's a photo reflector.

I wen't a little overboard an got me six #22 and twelve #50 bulbs, hah... can't wait to start shooting these! They are a little pricey, but so is shooting 20x24" anyhow.. so i'm not going to be wasting bulbs.

[BrianShaw]

Holy smokes... I have no idea where you are located but many of us will be blinking rapidly after you pop a few of them!

[Two23]

I've been shooting a few freight trains with M2 bulbs in three Rolleiflash holders, using my Rolleiflash and HP5, f8. For what I'm doing, the M2 bulbs have enough power. I also have seven White Lightning X3200 strobes (about 10,000ws), and I think the bulbs are pretty close in performance.


Kent in SD

[premortho]

Yeah, well I always use #5/25's, even at asa 3 if the range is close enough. It always amuses me to see these reccomendations to get strobes. #5/25's will blow every less than $500.00 strobe out of the game when it comes to light output. Buy a couple dozen 5's or 25's for say 20 bucks and a straight battery flash gun, Don't use a battery-condenser unit(condensers dead, wierd battery sizes). The 3 volts from to flashlight battery only kick off the igniter in the bulb. He's talking about open flash. Open flash uses all of the pretty impressive light output of a flashbulb. The problem with 5/25's is usually too much light, not the other way around. The way this was done in the old days was with an assistant holding the flash-gun above and to the right of the camera. Photog. sets shutter on bulb..opens lens, says"fire" assistant pops bulb photog closes shutter. Before I had a synchronizer, this took 1/10 of a second.

[rob cruickshank]

I've scanned a couple of pages of flashbulb data here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/84221353@N00/2677558640/ and here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/84221353@N00/2676741407/in/photostream/
Outputs are in lumen-seconds rather than guide numbers, but it's useful for comparisons.

[Maris Rusis]

The most light for the least work at the lowest price comes from burning lengths of magnesium ribbon. The more you burn the more light you get almost without practical limit. Cave photographs, even huge chambers, can be fully lit with half a pocket full of Mg ribbon and a box of matches!

[Don Dudenbostel]

In the 60's and 70's I used many cases of flash bulbs whenever I needed a huge amount of light from a small package.

The most popular high output bulbs are #3 or 3B which is daylight. It less output than a 3. Big light from a small package about the size of a 100w incandescantbulb. Next I would look for either #11 or 22 bulbs. They're less output than the 3's but still a lot of light. Remember any bulb designated B is blue for daylight. Others are good like #40's. All of these have screw bases and can be used in regular household sockets. I know for a fact that 3, 11 & 22's can be triggered safely with 110v. They were designed for a wide range of trigger voltages up to 110v.

I did high speed motion picture work for a few years. I shot 16mm up to 44,000 fps at a shutter speed of 1/100,000 of a second. You need a huge amount of light synced to the camera. At 44,000 fps everything takes place in a fraction of a second. I used #3's and FF33 bulbs. The FF33 has a flash duration / peak of 1.75 seconds and huge output.

Here are a couple of safety suggestions. Never trigger smaller bulbs like #5 or 25's with 110v. They were designed for low voltages. Always use the cardboard delve or if there's not one rap a hand towel around the bulb while inserting it into the socket. Bulbs will static fire and sometimes one forgets to shut off the power to the socket. In any case the burn to your fingers is severe and painful. I have had them static fire a couple of times and 3rd degree burns the the fingers is very painful. If possible shield the bulb with clear plastic when firing. Special clear covers were made to go over the reflector of flas guns in days of old. Bulbs shatter when fired from time to time and send glass flying.

I don't know if you can find them now but there were bayonnette to household screw socket adapters made so you could use the smaller 5 and 25's in regular sockets but at low voltage.

I've lit some huge industrial sites with bulbs and some beautiful interiors but they are expensive and very time consuming to setup and use but they do make some beautiful.

One note, bulbs like the 5 and 25 were the same. One was GE and the other Sylvania. Westinghouse made them too but don't remember if it had a different number. The same goes for the 11 & 22. There was also another equivalent of the 3.

If you want to see some big stuff lit with bulbs look at O Winston Link's work with trains. I met him years ago and admired his work. He thought I was nuts when I asked but had a #11 bulb with me and a sharpie and got him to autograph the bulb. I bet it's the only bulb in existence with his autograph.

[BrianShaw]

There was also another equivalent of the 3.


50

[BrianShaw]

btw...

11 and 40 are equivalent, as are 2 and 22.

[BrianShaw]

p.s Great input, Don!

[Don Dudenbostel]

Forgot to mention one important thing, never never never trigger a bulb with 110v direct into the camera. You could die! This was always done with a relay box with a low voltage side going to the camera.

For anyone wanting to use bulbs and a shutter to trigger them, you need to have a shutter with M sync. It fires the bulb a few milliseconds before the shutter upend to allow the light to reach its peak. X only works with longer exposures. Seems like it was 1/30 or longer but it's been a while.