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EOTS
6-Oct-2012, 08:52
Hi,

I switched over to the Fuji Chrome E6 6-bath kit,
as the Fuji 3-bath kit is now discontinued,
which I am using with a CPP2 rotary processor.

With the 3 bath kit it was clearly specified as 6'30'' at 38C.

In the Fuji manual they write nothing exact for rotary first dev timing,
just something in the interval 6'00'' to 8'30'' depending on your temperature and the weather and your taste...
and also that 2 minutes mean a 1 stop difference ... which makes the fuzziness a bit scary using Velvia...

So for my first comparison test:
Which duration do you use for the first developer for the standard exact 38C?

I mostly expose with 40 ISO as I found the Fuji rating a bit on the darker side,
and it had been well suited for scanning (only tested with the 3 bath)...

Best regards and thanks,
Martin

EOTS
6-Oct-2012, 09:18
Here I found something:
http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_analog/analog_frei/bedanleitung_pdf/E-6/E-6_Handbuch_GB.pdf

From page 20:
<quote>
2.* For Fuji film materials, the following applies:
If, for instance, you expose a Fujichrome 100 with 21 DIN you must start with a first developing time of 7:00 minutes.
You should overexpose Fuji material by 1/3 of an f- stop (max. 2/3) to be able to start also with a first developer time of 6:30 minutes.
</quote>

Funny thing, Jobo explicitly recommends the 1/3 stop (i.e. Velvia @ISO40) :-)
So 6:30 seems the thing to do then?

Best,
Martin

Sevo
6-Oct-2012, 09:27
What manual? The technical bulletin available online states that first development is 6'00" at 38C (+/-0.3C). No exceptions given. There is a table of push/pull times in the document, but no table for temperature compensation.

Sevo
6-Oct-2012, 09:31
Here I found something:
Funny thing, Jobo explicitly recommends the 1/3 stop (i.e. Velvia @ISO40) :-)


In a document dating back to anywhere before 2005 (as they refer to Agfa), using some process with a default time of 6:30 - i.e. NOT the official Fuji or Kodak six-bath processes, whether then or now.

EOTS
6-Oct-2012, 09:34
There came a 7-page manual with my Fuji Hunt Chrome6 E6 6-bath Kit, with tables with different times each technique.

Regarding first developer:
Page 4) "Batch or Sink-Line Processing": 6min at 36,5 to 39,5
Page 5) "Rotary Tube Processors": range from 6min to 8min30sec at 38 +/-0,3
Page 6) "Small-Talk Processing": 6min to 7min at 38 +/-0,3

EOTS
6-Oct-2012, 09:45
I found an online version of the instructions here: http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/files/Fuji_Chrome_6X_Instructions.pdf

Sevo
6-Oct-2012, 09:51
If you carefully work to specifications and avoid pitfalls that could cause underdevelopment, 6:00 will be right - 8:30 is a two stop push in regular conditions, you'd have to be rather deficient in temperature or depletion levels to need that for a development to nominal sensitivity.

I've never used Fuji, but plenty of Kodak and Agfa 6-bath - with these I always managed to develop to spec without adjusting times. It certainly helps to have the processor settle to a touch above 38 for some hours before processing, having a room temperature around 24C, pre-warming the dry tanks, and using 25xx series tanks (rather than small 15xxes) with only that much film in it that you need to regenerate with less than 20% of the fill volume (the latter may mean not filling the tank to the maximum with 135 or 220 reels, but with 120 or sheet film it is hard to exceed that threshold).

EOTS
6-Oct-2012, 10:33
Thanks for the tipps, Sevo!

OK, I'm only doing 4x5 and 120 in 25xx Tanks and the 8x10 in Expert Tanks...
none of the smaller ones...

BTW, I have to say that I will use it as a one-shot chemistry,
I do not regenerate (in terms of re-using the already used chemistry and then only always adding a percentage of fresh chemistry).
If that has any impacts?!

Which specification are you referring to?
Do you mean that 6:00 always way the "standard specification" for E6 @38C, so the chemistry kit should/will adhere?
As far as temperature control, my CPP2 is very consistent!
So the pitfall of underdevelopment from too cold chemistry won't be an issue!

Judging from the instruction manual, Fuji specify 6:00 to 8:30 for rotation, the precise 6:00 are only given for batch / sink-line processing!

Fuji also specify:
"The temperature you use may range from 36,5 to 39,5. Once you select the temperature, control it within 0,3C.
You will need to match your temperature with the appropriate time for an 'incontrol' process.
The time you use may range from 6' to 8'30'' to produce an in-control process at a selected temperature.
Control the time you select within +/- 5 seconds for a consistent process."

But that sounds like "test it yourself"...
Which might be the best idea anyways?!

I guess the agitation of the CPP2 would be one aspect ... seems to be 'P' speed for the 25xx Tanks
Jobo recommends 6:30 with a 'P' rotation speed for the 25xx tanks
http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_analog/us_analog/instructions/instructions_process_e-6.htm#Process%20Times%20for%20E-6%20%28six-step%29
But like you said, that could be old news?! Then again, would they change the chemistry a lot?

Thanks,
Martin

Sevo
6-Oct-2012, 11:25
Do you mean that 6:00 always way the "standard specification" for E6 @38C, so the chemistry kit should/will adhere?


I don't know whether it has always been like that, E6 has been around since my early youth. But it has been like that ever since I did my first E6 developments.



Fuji also specify:
"The temperature you use may range from 36,5 to 39,5. Once you select the temperature, control it within 0,3C.
You will need to match your temperature with the appropriate time for an 'incontrol' process.
The time you use may range from 6' to 8'30'' to produce an in-control process at a selected temperature.
Control the time you select within +/- 5 seconds for a consistent process."

But that sounds like "test it yourself"...


Right. Ideally you should run test strips and tweak process parameters according to the manual until the densities in all channels match the specifications. I've done that while I had an assistant just to attend to an ATL and was doing studio photography - it is somewhat pointless when processing on a more erratic schedule. But just developing to the official table and tweaking times until the exposures are right will turn out results that are not that far off.

My rule of thumb of using as much developer as possible to keep away from depletion during the processing is only valid for a replenished process. If you do one-shot processing, it would be insane both from the environmental and cost angle to dump developer that is less than 20% used. If you decrease the chemicals amount to the minimum you can get away with (by both fill level and area consumption), you'll obviously have to up the development times correspondingly - you'll have to work out by trial and error to what amount.

EOTS
6-Oct-2012, 11:59
Thanks for the input ... just doing it since March 2011, so it's my first time with the 6-bath stuff...

OK, I've always been using 250ml for six 4x5 with one reel and 500ml with twelve 4x5 (two reels)...
guess that's rather minimum ...

So with that minimum amount i have to up the chemistry ... I guess I'll try a small run with 6:30 first ...

With the three bath process and the manual rotaries (CPE2, CPP2),
I then got away with doing a second run reusing the chemistry,
but with 30 seconds longer times for all three baths as was specified in the manual...

The 6-bath manual states: "after you have processed 1.1m^2 of film, increase the first dev by 30s".
They say "1 to 118" 4x5 sheets without increasing the times, then "119 to 175" with +30s

Do you think it's generally better to use let's say 1L and "reuse the chemistry to death"?

I always thought fresh chemistry would deliver more deterministic results...

Best,
Martin

EOTS
6-Oct-2012, 12:00
Thanks for the input ... just doing it since March 2011, so it's my first time with the 6-bath stuff...

OK, I've always been using 250ml for six 4x5 with one reel and 500ml with twelve 4x5 (two reels)...
guess that's rather minimum ...

So with that minimum amount i have to up the chemistry ... I guess I'll try a small run with 6:30 first ...

With the three bath process and the manual rotaries (CPE2, CPP2),
I then got away with doing a second run reusing the chemistry,
but with 30 seconds longer times for all three baths as was specified in the manual...

The 6-bath manual states: "after you have processed 1.1m^2 of film, increase the first dev by 30s".
They say "1 to 118" 4x5 sheets without increasing the times, then "119 to 175" with +30s

Do you think it's generally better to use let's say 1L and "reuse the chemistry to death"?

I always thought fresh chemistry would deliver more deterministic results...

Best,
Martin

Petr Hartvich
6-Oct-2012, 12:48
Hi Martin,

I found for 4x5 Velvia & Provia sheet film the first developer time from 6'30'' to 7'00'' at 38 the best. I use Jobo CPP2 with Drum Expert 3010 for developing. For Velvia 50 exposed ISO 40 I would choose 7'00'' at 38. In the past I used discontinued Kodak six bath chemistry with the first developer time 7'30'' at 38. I found that some shortening of developing time of the first developer Fuji chemistry gives the same results.
Hope this helps.

Greetings from Budweis,

Petr

EOTS
6-Oct-2012, 13:53
Hi Petr!
Thanks for your answer!

Which developer kit did you use for your 6'30'' to 7'00'' @38 findings?

Greetings from Linz,
Martin

P.S.: must visit Budweis again ...
had a very nice evening there at the market place in the summer of 2010 ... drinking loads of Budvar, the best beer ;-)

EOTS
6-Oct-2012, 16:22
Cool!

Did my first batch with 6'50'' first developer timing and 'P' rotation mode (6'40'' rotation and 10'' draining).
They turned out very well!

Best,
Martin

Petr Hartvich
7-Oct-2012, 04:22
Hi Martin,

Congratulation!
I use Fuji Hunt Chrome6 E6 six bath kit from Ag Photographic http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/fuji-hunt-chrome6-e6-kit-5l-1758-p.asp
Budvar drinkers are welcome everytime, not only in the summer thirsty time:-).

Have a great sunday!

Petr

EOTS
7-Oct-2012, 05:10
Hi Petr,

Which rotation speed are you using with the expert drum?

Have a great sunday too!

Martin

Petr Hartvich
10-Oct-2012, 05:13
Hi Martin,

I use speed #3. I am fully satisfied with results.

Petr

EOTS
10-Oct-2012, 05:31
Strangely, some of the Provias @ISO80 are blown out ...
but honestly I think I accidentally applied my hard-coded-into-my-brain-RVP50-reciprocity-corrections to the Provia,
must be, as only some are affected ...
(I shot a lot of Velvia and Provia side-by-side)

I also tried reusing the chemistry for a second batch, and the colors seem a tad off ...

Have to do some more precise/deterministic studio tests though ...

Have you had any experience with reusing the chemistry?

Petr Hartvich
13-Oct-2012, 12:05
I have no experience with reusing chemistry, everytime use fresh solutions. Seems to me it is difficult to keep used solutions pure enough in rotary processors. I dont believe that with used chemistry you get fully reproducible results.
Reciprocity failure diferences between Provia and Velvia films are really dramatical, one rule is not aplicable for both kinds of film.

EOTS
13-Oct-2012, 17:49
Hey Petr,

yeah, I know the times for both, basically you don't need to correct for Provia until 4 minutes ...

but normally I was only using Velvia, and Provia just since about a month ago,
so as my Velvia correction table is hard-coded to my brain I was accidentally applying them to the Provia film in about 10% of the shots...
I mentally switched the light meter ISO rating to the respective film type, but not the necessary reciprocity correction...
using two films side-by-side is new for me...

Best,
Martin