Why are 8x10 and up film holders so expensive?

[Pawlowski6132]

$400 for a used wooden 11x14 film holder?

C'mon. $20 worth of wood and a few hours worth of work??

No fuckin' way. I'm sure someone with rudimentary wood working skills can make these for $50 all day long.

[karl french]

Ultracrepidarian.

[Tracy Storer]

Take a close look at any film holder, wood, metal or plastic. There are a lot of grooves notches and joints which have to be not only precisely located for proper film location on X, Y, and Z axes, but also have to be light tight.
Believe me, it'll take substantially more than "rudimentary wood working skills". (not to mention a serious shopfull of quality tools)
And how much wood do you have to buy, resize and reject for one defect or another before you've got suitable material? It's a sad fact of woodworking that not every bit of every piece of stock purchased is usable.
Like anything else, production cost per unit goes down with volume in a well organized operation, new holder manufacture is a boutique business, and old ones are a limited commodity.

Also, what Karl said.

[Erik Larsen]

There are actually a lot of cuts to be made, there is no way you could do it in a couple hours just because of the numerous times you have to set up the tools for different cuts. It's not difficult but it takes quite a bit of time.

Well, Tracy typed faster than I did and summed it up well

[RandyB]

There you go!!, looks like you found yourself a new career. Along this thought process, why does a pound of chicken eggs cost about a buck fifty but a pound of fish eggs can cost $500.00. Its very simple, demand and supply. Not much demand these days so not many are made and many of them that were used at the turn of the last century were simply destroyed as the marginal demand declined. Its kind of the same in other hobbies, back in the early 60's when I was a wee lad, I bought a Japanese bamboo fly rod for about $3.00, have you seen what bamboo fly rods cost today, outrageous.

[Pawlowski6132]

But once you figure out how to build one...

Cars are built quicker.

Its nice to know there are folks out there ready to gouge us at a moments notice.

$50 lens boards anyone?

[Pawlowski6132]

Ultracrepidarian.

I don't know what that means.

[Jan Pedersen]

Once again, google can be your friend and i gues it could also be your enemy! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultracrepidarianism

[CP Goerz]

If you want to make some 6x10 or 4x10 holders I'll give you $35 a pop, I'll take six of each. When can you be finished with that order? :-)


Alan once told me that he has to make over 100 different cuts per holder, there is a reason there are plenty of camera makers but few holder makers.......

[Pawlowski6132]

If you want to make some 6x10 or 4x10 holders I'll give you $35 a pop, I'll take six of each. When can you be finished with that order? :-)


Alan once told me that he has to make over 100 different cuts per holder, there is a reason there are plenty of camera makers but few holder makers.......

So, make them out of plastic. I'm sure the Chinese can make them dirt cheap. Come on, are you guys that gullible? Some one in mfg help me out here.

[Oren Grad]

So, make them out of plastic. I'm sure the Chinese can make them dirt cheap. Come on, are you guys that gullible? Some one in mfg help me out here.

Been there, tried that. A few of us went through a long and tortuous process with Paul Droluk to spec out metal-and-plastic 6.5 x 8.5 holders and see whether Fotoman could bring them to market. The process went as far as initial manufacturing setup - I had the prototype in my hands. In the end, it didn't happen. But it had become clear that between quality control issues with Chinese manufacturing and the probable level of demand, the unit cost for holders of consistently acceptable quality was not going to be "dirt cheap".

[Pawlowski6132]

Been there, tried that. A few of us went through a long and tortuous process with Paul Droluk to spec out metal-and-plastic 6.5 x 8.5 holders and see whether Fotoman could bring them to market. The process went as far as initial manufacturing setup - I had the prototype in my hands. In the end, it didn't happen. But it had become clear that between quality control issues with Chinese manufacturing and the probable level of demand, the unit cost for holders of consistently acceptable quality was not going to be "dirt cheap".

But not $400.

I can buy an ipad for $400. Which is more complicated and requires more quality control?

[Paul Ewins]

Just a thought - while making them from wood will be time-consuming and expensive and making them from plastic in the traditional manner (extrusion and/or injection moulding) requires high set-up costs I wonder whether it would be possible to design a film holder that could be made with a 3D printer. It may still require some assembly and some parts (centre divider, film guides and dark slides) would probably still need to be made from stock sheet but it could be possible to simplify it enough that custom size plastic film holders become viable.

[Pawlowski6132]

Just a thought - while making them from wood will be time-consuming and expensive and making them from plastic in the traditional manner (extrusion and/or injection moulding) requires high set-up costs I wonder whether it would be possible to design a film holder that could be made with a 3D printer. It may still require some assembly and some parts (centre divider, film guides and dark slides) would probably still need to be made from stock sheet but it could be possible to simplify it enough that custom size plastic film holders become viable.

NOW we're talking.

[Sal Santamaura]

...I can buy an ipad for $400...I have no background in film holder manufacturing. Nonetheless, if you pre-sell (i.e. take pre-paid orders for) as many 6.5 x 8.5 plastic film holders as Apple has sold iPads, I'll step up to getting them built and shipped for way less than $400. I'll even provide you a set of holder specifications to use when marketing them. :D

PS That Fotoman prototype passed through my hands on its way from Oren back to Paul. It was unusably bad, and the price was not expected to be exactly cheap, although nowhere near $400.

[Oren Grad]

But not $400.

I can buy an ipad for $400. Which is more complicated and requires more quality control?

Apple has sold tens of millions of iPads. The problem with holders is that you can't sell anywhere near enough of them at a price adequate to pay off the fixed cost of setting up mass production with adequate QC.

[Frank Petronio]

Next time you get laid off you can leapfrog the woodworking and manufacturing industries and go right into being a politician!

[Pawlowski6132]

Next time you get laid off you can leapfrog the woodworking and manufacturing industries and go right into being a politician!

Frank, just passing the time in the DR while the test prints dry.

[Oren Grad]

Just a thought - while making them from wood will be time-consuming and expensive and making them from plastic in the traditional manner (extrusion and/or injection moulding) requires high set-up costs I wonder whether it would be possible to design a film holder that could be made with a 3D printer. It may still require some assembly and some parts (centre divider, film guides and dark slides) would probably still need to be made from stock sheet but it could be possible to simplify it enough that custom size plastic film holders become viable.

I don't think the readily available 3D printing options can yet meet the combination of design overhead, raw materials cost, part precision, and final assembly cost that would be needed to match the functional attributes while undercutting the price of wooden holders. But for a taste of that world, nose around here...

http://www.shapeways.com/

...and see what you think.

[Oren Grad]

Frank, just passing the time in the DR while the test prints dry.

So are they all dry yet? Surely we've generated enough hot air to speed things up. :)

[Paul Ewins]

Actually I don't see 3D printed holders as saleable objects, it is definitely a DIY thing. The current hobbyist printers probably don't have the required resolution but the commercial ones are definitely there. The big difference is that film holders are almost all identical save for the dimensions, so that once you have a model made for one size it should be trivial to alter it for another size. All this assumes that a suitable plastic is available.

Looking at a Fidelity 8x10 holder, the parts list would be 1 x centre divider (cut from sheet), 2 x dark slide (cut from sheet), 2 x dark slide handles (2 pieces each, printed), film holder body with integral film guides (2 identical pieces, printed), 2 x end flaps (printed), tape for end flaps, glue for assembly. Putting that together wouldn't be rocket science, it wouldn't even be stone axe science.

[Oren Grad]

Looking at a Fidelity 8x10 holder, the parts list would be 1 x centre divider (cut from sheet), 2 x dark slide (cut from sheet), 2 x dark slide handles (2 pieces each, printed), film holder body with integral film guides (2 identical pieces, printed), 2 x end flaps (printed), tape for end flaps, glue for assembly. Putting that together wouldn't be rocket science, it wouldn't even be stone axe science.

Well, maybe we can get a handle on it, so to speak. Leaving out the non-printer parts, how many cubic cm of raw material do you reckon that adds up to?

[Paul Ewins]

At most, 425cc but probably closer to 400cc for an 8x10. A rough scale up to 12 x 15 was around 620cc and I guess a 16x20 would be closer to 900cc if the overall thickness stayed the same (19mm or 3/4") and the sides and ends got a little broader. Going by the shapeways price - $1.40cc - this is way too expensive. However the black ABS filament used in the hobbyist printers is actually quite cheap, maybe $50 kg, so I would guess that most of that cost is actually overhead not materials. If you were making three or four holders at the same time then economies of scale might start to tip in your favour. I don't think it will ever be viable for 8x10 and smaller, but ULF and specialty sizes may be different.

[Vaughn]

Anybody can make a film holder. Not many can make one worth using.

It might take less than $400 worth of time and material to make a good one, but people probably charge more just to have to put up with the 'Ultracrepidarians'. LOL!

[Steve Smith]

I wonder whether it would be possible to design a film holder that could be made with a 3D printer.

If I was going to do design a plastic film holder (which I'm not!) I would see if I could make it with a plastic extrusion to eliminate much of the slot cutting.


Steve.

[jnantz]

i've made holders before, out of cardstock and foam core and other materials ... 11x14 and smaller sizes.
it took very little time and worked very well, and cost me about 2hours work and about 20$ worth of materials... ( for 5 or 6 holders )

alibaba can connect you with people all over the world who have the manufacturing experience to make film holders
for mass production for you .. its just a matter of making a prototype, and making sure the samples sent out for spec-check
are the same things being made. it would be a real drag if custom made film holders from the far east turned everyone's film pink
like the chinese amidol did ...

[Linhof]

demand is much bigger than supply!

[RichardRitter]

$400 for a used wooden 11x14 film holder?

C'mon. $20 worth of wood and a few hours worth of work??

No fuckin' way. I'm sure someone with rudimentary wood working skills can make these for $50 all day long.

Well its like this first the wood has to be of the best quality. Finding the best quality makes a lot of kindling and ups the cost of the holder

Then there is the fact that there are over 150 different set ups to make a holder each set up taking about an hour or more to get it right. All set ups having to be of very tight tolerances to prevent light leaks and most important is the placement of the film in the holder to the ground glass. This can make more kindling that just gets more costly the more time and set ups you have into the parts.

The side rials that are the most important part of the holder has 20 plus operation to it. The groves have to be parallel to the edge and with in a 0.005 tolerance. Just one little slip, set sometime up wrong, build up of dust, the list goes on on what can make parts no good and the parts that have hours of time into then are scrape, very costly kindling.

Why not make then in plastic the molds to make the parts is a small fortune and you would have to make a lot of pats to justify the cost.

I work part time in a high end custom door and window shop, the shop use to make cameras for me when I was at Zone VI there is only one person in that shop who would even think of trying to making the holder. But he knows better and will not touch then with a ten foot board. The shop has 5 master wood workers, they all looked at a holder and said no way once they found out about the tolerances. Yes they are all capable of making the holder.

I have ran the cost figures on making holders and had then double checked by the person that made the Zone VI cameras and we came up with there is about $90 worth of materials in a 11 x 14 holder and about 6 hours time per holder if you made a dozen holders. If may math is right that works out to $390 at $50 per hour labor plus materials. This is does not take into the fact that some custom tooling would have to made and custom fixtures would have to be made to insure the tight tolerances to make the holders.

[Brian C. Miller]

$400 for a used wooden 11x14 film holder?

C'mon. $20 worth of wood and a few hours worth of work??

No fuckin' way. I'm sure someone with rudimentary wood working skills can make these for $50 all day long.

You missed this thread? Cheap 11x14 film holders on ebay (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?95463-Cheap-11x14-film-holders-on-ebay)

[CP Goerz]

Weren't Fidelity's prices on 11x14 holders back in the day in the $$$ region? And they were plastic holder makers with all the tools at their disposal. Good luck on getting a call back from the owner.....

[E. von Hoegh]

$400 for a used wooden 11x14 film holder?

C'mon. $20 worth of wood and a few hours worth of work??

No @#!*% ' way. I'm sure someone with rudimentary wood working skills can make these for $50 all day long.

Good luck with that. You'll need a cabinetmaker, if you can find one. Figure $80 or more per hour and about 6 hours per holder if they're made in batches.

But by all means, find a wood butcher and have him make a few holders for you.

[E. von Hoegh]

But once you figure out how to build one...

Cars are built quicker.

Its nice to know there are folks out there ready to gouge us at a moments notice.

$50 lens boards anyone?

Sure. Three to five precisely cut and jointed pieces of seasoned quarter-sawn mahogany, assembled, glued, finished. Looks like a bargain, if you have any grasp of what it takes to make one.

I bet you get ripped off every time you turn around....

[Steve Smith]

Good luck with that. You'll need a cabinetmaker, if you can find one.

Actually, a good metal worker might be a better option. It's more of a mechanical engineering assembly than cabinet making.


Steve.

[E. von Hoegh]

Actually, a good metal worker might be a better option. It's more of a mechanical engineering assembly than cabinet making.


Steve.

Yes, but whomever will have to be familiar with selecting and jointing wood, there's no substitute for that experience. Were I to make a holder - and I might, for an 11x14 project camera I have - I'll be using metal.

[ic-racer]

What size are you looking for. I see that there were recently twelve completed sales of 8x10 film holders on ebay in the less than $50 range.

[E. von Hoegh]

What size are you looking for. I see that there were recently twelve completed sales of 8x10 film holders on ebay in the less than $50 range.

I've never paid more than $12-15 for an 8x10 holder.

[Steve Smith]

If anyone wants the dimensions to make their own: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5SarEdwOr8LbEZJcFg0RGZkUFE/edit?pli=1#

That only goes up to 8 x 10 but for larger sizes, I would just stretch the 8 x 10 dimensions.


Were I to make a holder - and I might, for an 11x14 project camera I have - I'll be using metal.

I would probably use wood or plastic CNC routed to the profile as shown in the link above.


Steve.

[jnantz]

I've never paid more than $12-15 for an 8x10 holder.

same here, plate holders too ..
either jim at midwest, the good folks at ccg,
or jc at equinoxphoto checked them out before shipping as well ..

lensboards ...
masonite is cheap and drills easy too

[E. von Hoegh]

same here, plate holders too ..
either jim at midwest, the good folks at ccg,
or jc at equinoxphoto checked them out before shipping as well ..

lensboards ...
masonite is cheap and drills easy too

I make lensboards for the Deardorff out of 1/4" plywood, paint the inner surface Rustoleum flat black and the outer surface whichever bright gloss Rustoleum color strikes my eye at the time - Sail Blue, Hunter Green, Red, Yellow, Black, Vermilion, and my favorite - Chrysler HiPo Orange.

[E. von Hoegh]

If anyone wants the dimensions to make their own: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5SarEdwOr8LbEZJcFg0RGZkUFE/edit?pli=1#

That only goes up to 8 x 10 but for larger sizes, I would just stretch the 8 x 10 dimensions.



I would probably use wood or plastic CNC routed to the profile as shown in the link above.


Steve.

Thanks for the dimensions.
Unfortunately, I don't have CNC access. I do have some large sheets of 2mm aluminium, and access to a vertical spindle milling machine. That and some aluminium rectangular stock will give me a one sided 11x14 holder without too much bother, I think. I'm thinking of a vacuum holder, too, which won't be much extra work.

[Ed Bray]

I'm interested in this thread as I also feel the price of film holders is over the top, a new 5x7 holder if you can find one is circa £60 plus VAt at 20% = £72 ($115).

How about a different take on the building of a film holder: How about making it with plasticard shims welded together using plastic solvent.

First the important dimensions are all those on one side of the film holder from the platen, the centre plate can be as thick as required to give enough strength for the required size and to be able to be keep the film flat as long as it is not too thick to prevent it being able to fit between the ground glass and the camera body, all other dimensions on that side are important if we are to maintain the film in the film plane.

If you purchase all the required thicknesses in sheets of plasticard and then cut the required strips to build the holder and then build them up in layers to give the final required result.

At each end the strips should be cut full length for the dark slide layer then full width for the layers above and below then alternate to complete the required layers and give the optimum lightproofing. Shouldn't be too difficult and the strips can be cut with a craft knife before being assembled. The difficult bit will be finding or machining the locating strip which is shown having a 45 degree angle on one side, but I am sure that even this is not insurmountable.

I might even have a quick try myself next time I'm bored and it's raining outside.

[sanking]

I have made a few wooden film holders myself, and managed the production of hundreds of them. To make a good film holder requires understanding of how a holder works, very good woodworking skills, and the right tools. It also takes a fair amount of time as there are many separate cuts and gluing operations that have to be done.

If you have the skills and want to make a film holder you can probably do it. And if you enjoy woodworking and find this a nice way to spend time you will find the project enriching and rewarding. Some people like to sail, some people like to build boats, and some people like to do both. Same could be said about making things (cameras, film holders, etc.) and image making.

Sandy

[Chauncey Walden]

It was interesting after reading this thread that I came across a patent issued in 1950 for extruded aluminum film holders. The patent document goes into detail about the problems making wooden holders exactly as expressed in some of the preceding posts. It also talks about being able to make different holder sizes just by cutting off different lengths of the extrusions. books.google.com/patents/US2522347.pdf

[Joe Smigiel]

$400 for a used wooden 11x14 film holder?

C'mon. $20 worth of wood and a few hours worth of work??

No fuckin' way. I'm sure someone with rudimentary wood working skills can make these for $50 all day long.

Well, I'll jump in here now since the above was posted a couple hours after I announced I had traded my FS 11x14 AWB holder for an 8x10 Cambo SC camera w/case and spare bellows. I was offering the holder for $400 firm plus insured shipping. The gentleman I traded the holder to had the 8x10 Cambo kit as a backup, and I have several older wooden 11x14 film and plateholders to use as well. If that wasn't the case for both of us, I don't think the deal would have been done.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in all the talk of tolerances and costs is the sheer delight in using that holder. The smoothness of operation was superb. The thing just whispered as the darklide was inserted or removed. Using it was a sensuous experience as well as a practical one. It was a fine example of woodworking and craftsmanship and it was also a visually-pleasing object to look at and handle.

I've made my share of sawdust and I appreciate the skill that went into its construction. I wouldn't even attempt to make a wooden filmholder given my primitive woodworking skills and equipment. I've tried to solicit the manufacture of a wooden whole-plate wetplate holder from several cabinetmakers and a friend who taught woodworking at a local school. After seeing an example of a ca. 1900 dryplate holder, none of them wanted to take the project on even though I offered $300 and supplied the materials and plans. And that was for a one-sheet plate holder that is of much simpler design than an antique dryplate holder or modern filmholder. I believe I can actually construct that wetplate holder satisfactory myself, but only because the plan is to make the camera back, groundglass frame, and plateholder at the same time with multiple use of given setups to keep the total number of setups to a minimum and keep the various pieces at similar tolerance. Also, the wetplate holder and other parts can be thicker than their modern counterparts and so easier to dimension and machines. At least that is what I'm hoping.

So now I have an extensive Cambo outfit including 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 kits. I can use my new and recently acquired "In-Camera Industries" (http://incameraindustries.com/) 8x10 plastic & metal wetplate holder in the 8x10. (That holder appears to be modeled after an old Graflex design and can double as a printing frame.) I also have the 4x5 version. The 4x5 currently retails for $200, the 8x10 for $400, and the 11x14 for $600, all excluding shipping, in case you'd rather use a new ABS holder instead of a new AWB.

[Joe Smigiel]

Thanks for that link Chauncey.

[Tim Meisburger]

I do think Ed is on the right track here. The question may not be how to make a holder of the quality or design of a fidelity, but how to make a usable holder for large film sizes. As someone (Ian?) mentioned, usable single sided holders can and are made out of foam core. It would seem a relatively easy task to build up a single sided holder on masonite.

If you want traditional style holders, from a production point of view you are only looking at six different profiles:

- side
- film load end
- film load cap
- slide load end
- slide load cap
- dark slide handle

With shaper blades cut to these six profiles and some good quality wood you could create stock that could then be sold by the foot for home construction in whatever sizes required. If you had a source for dark slide material as well you could sell the complete kit. The joinery required to assemble finished holders would not be trivial, but with patience and good instructions not super difficult, and a bit of putty could hide many sins...

[goamules]

Why so expensive? Because the demand is so low, they are basically one-offs. If there were 4,000 sold a year, the price would get down to around $20, but since there are only about 4 bought a year, the sellers can act like they are made by Swedish virgins out of rare frankincense. They are just complicated enough where you can't whittle one out of old plywood laying around your garage. But try that, you may get lucky.

[Steve Smith]

I do think Ed is on the right track here. The question may not be how to make a holder of the quality or design of a fidelity, but how to make a usable holder for large film sizes.

Absolutely. If you wanted to make film holders which conform to ISO standards in terms of their thickness and film registration distance then it would require some quite complex machining. However, to make a few ULF size holders for personal use shouldn't be too taxing. The reason I state 'personal use' is because then you can eliminate having to conform to the standard for film registration distance and just make sure that the ground glass on your camera is set the same as your film holders.

This means that you can make the holders a bit wider and use easier to work with, thicker materials. The only slot which needs to be narrow is the one for the film and this is created from a wide slot with a more narrow slot in it to take the central core (look at the first image in my link - dimension H) No precision machining necessary.

A good DIY woodworker with decent tools should have no problem making film holders. That's how they were made 100 years ago - with basic tools because that's all they had!


Steve.

[Frank Petronio]

I always thought it would be cool to build a camera as much from scratch as possible... cut and dry some lumber, melt some sand for glass, kill a horse for gelatin, etc.

[Michael Batchelor]

...the sellers can act like they are made by Swedish virgins out of rare frankincense...

You mean they're not? Drat!

[C. D. Keth]

I always thought it would be cool to build a camera as much from scratch as possible... cut and dry some lumber, melt some sand for glass, kill a horse for gelatin, etc.


That reminds me of a piece of now-obsolete trivia: Kodak was, by far, the world's largest consumer of cow skeletons.

[unixrevolution]

$400 for a used wooden 11x14 film holder?

C'mon. $20 worth of wood and a few hours worth of work??

No fuckin' way. I'm sure someone with rudimentary wood working skills can make these for $50 all day long.

Have you priced "A few hours worth of work" in the first world, lately?

[Michael Kadillak]

When you consider the price of ULF sheet film, the perceived lofty price for a quality ULF holder that works as intended (no leaks and produces a sharp negative) is easily justified in the number of good negatives it produces. Once you have holders that work putting 30 sheets through them gets you revenue neutral to the process. Holders can last many years when taken care of.

[Drew Wiley]

A filmholder is simple in concept, nitipicky in execution. The mere mention of "plastic" in this context makes me chuckle. What do you mean by plastic? There are all kinds of things,
and the end result has to be durable, precisely machinable, resistant to warpage or moisture lighttight, and hopefully static resistant. And every filmholder ever made has ultimately had some weakness in that respect. They've been made of wood, aluminum, polyethylene and ABS, PC board, carbon fiber .... and wood would be pretty low on my list. You can probably buy an entry-level CNC router for the cost of a stack of holders. Anyone with serious shop skills should be able to make one and do a good job of it. But inexpensively??? Guess if you want to pay yourself the kind of wages they earn in China, and don't believe in a profit either. I'll stick with Lisco and Fidelity, thank you.

[Jim Andrada]

I think one would have to custom grind the shaper blades to cut the various profiles - it's possible to get cutter heads that take blank cutters which you grind to shape yourself. If you have them made of carbide they get very expensive very fast - several hundred dollars per cutter is not unusual based on my experience of having had a couple of custom cutter heads fabricated. Then you have the problem of actually running the wood through the shaper properly. I use a power feeder because otherwise you 1) risk losing your fingers and 2) can't constrain the wood adequately to get consistent cuts without turning (1) above into a certainty rather than a risk. The 150 pound power feeder is fastened to the top of a 3000 pound machine which is about what you need to get the necessary stability. Of course the wood has to be well seasoned and jointed flat and straight before you start. Mahogany is quite stable which is one reason it's so popular - also looks great. Maple is pretty good as well but I prefer mahogany for most things. Sugar (or patternmaker's) pine is quite stable but doesn't finish as smooth as the other woods.

[Reinhold Schable]

I bumped into this discussion and was immediatly turned off by the opening salvo fired off by a foul-mouthed cretin who apparently skipped classes in adult communtation. Now, after 56 posts by the more civilized, here are a few comments.

I made six 8x20 holders about 6 or 7 years ago and posted my observations over on APUG;
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum44/16958-8x20-holders-just-completed-6-them.html

There are some hints & tips that may be useful to anyone undertaking the challenge.

Reinhold

Oh, by the way, I probably earned 79¢ per hour....

www.Re-inventedPhotoEquip.com

[jodyake]

As someone that makes plate holder I can tell you that it is a lot harder than you might think. It took months to get a working prototype and it was even more challenging to go into production. I charge $400 for an 8x10 plate holder. Some people think that it is too expensive but they have no idea how long it takes to make an holder. The price of plastic has gone up 30% - 40% in the last year alone. Throw in $100 plus an hour for cnc time (thats cheap by the way) A few thousand for an industrial designer to draw up the schematics, having custom stainless steel parts laser cut, laser time for more plastic parts, hardware (thermal insert, stainless steel screws, rivets ) and then pay for the time to assemble the holder. And then I got to make a living so $400 does not seem that much to me.
http://incameraindustries.com/
I have seen Reinhold's film holders and they are really nice. He also makes very cool lens.

[Tim Meisburger]

I agree with everyone!

Mostly it comes down to time. I could make them, but if I value my time, I could not make them for less than I could buy them for. As people have mentioned, the capital investment to get tooled up is significant. I do think that someone who was already tooled up could do well selling stock for kits, as running stock would be cheap once you were tooled up. I can imagine a kit that included rough sized side rails, ends and sheet stock for core and slides, leaving the fiddly and time-consuming joinery to the purchaser...

[Steve Smith]

I bumped into this discussion and was immediatly turned off by the opening salvo fired off by a foul-mouthed cretin who apparently skipped classes in adult communtation. Now, after 56 posts by the more civilized, here are a few comments.

I made six 8x20 holders about 6 or 7 years ago and posted my observations over on APUG

There is an old saying: "The people who claim something cannot be done should not interrupt those actually doing it".

This proves it to be correct!


Steve.

[Michael Kadillak]

As is many times the case the perception from the outside is primarily driven by out of pocket costs and this situation was not different from any number of other similar iterations. I went through the probing steps of a lens project a few years back where I actually sat down with a lens designer and took the time to actually educate myself about the inner workings of this business and it put a whole new perspective on the ability to acquire a barrel lens for a LF or ULF camera at current market prices as such a smoking deal it blew my mind. I dropped the project like a hot potato and focused on making photographs as the most efficient and effective allocation of my time and energy.

[goamules]

As someone that makes plate holder I can tell you that it is a lot harder than you might think. It took months to get a working prototype and it was even more challenging to go into production. I charge $400 for an 8x10 plate holder. Some people think that it is too expensive but they have no idea how long it takes to make an holder. The price of plastic has gone up 30% - 40% in the last year alone. Throw in $100 plus an hour for cnc time (thats cheap by the way) A few thousand for an industrial designer to draw up the schematics, having custom stainless steel parts laser cut, laser time for more plastic parts, hardware (thermal insert, stainless steel screws, rivets ) and then pay for the time to assemble the holder. And then I got to make a living so $400 does not seem that much to me.
http://incameraindustries.com/
I have seen Reinhold's film holders and they are really nice. He also makes very cool lens.

I commend you and was about to post about your new-made plate holders, when I saw you already did. I watched you over the months gathering requirements, determining materials, locating suppliers and machinists, and all that goes into new production. And people think it's all about the materials. No one works for free, your time is valuable. I bet you have half a man-year into all that. But let's downplay it to an "easy" 6 week R&D period, that's still thousands of dollars worth of your time.

Now, figuring a new manufacturer may sell 10 new 11x14 holders a year, it would take a long time to get payback if you give them away for 20% over material cost or whatever the OP thinks would be "right." The OP doesn't have a clue about business and manufacturing. Yes, he can take all the time he wants to make a personal film holder or two, ignoring the amount of time it takes. Just like any of us can make a fine piece of Walnut furniture for our home for $100 in materials, instead of paying $900 to some custom builder. Or rebuild a classic 1957 Ford from a $500 junker, instead of paying $10,000 for a restored one. These things are in the same supply/demand (low) as an 11x14 holder, and their cost shows it. An iPhone is made by the bazillions, and if Apple keeps the price low and just makes 20% profit on each, they still become the richest company in the world.

Workers in China are the ones making them, and keeping the costs down. "Foxconn’s current basic salary ($350) per month..."
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/china/iphone-manufacturer-foxconn-to-double-worker-salaries-by-2013/438
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/foxconn_technology/index.html

[Jim Andrada]

And when we moved our mfg line from Japan to China 10 years ago the base wage was $60 per month

This was for a 6 day week as I recall

[Drew Wiley]

All of this doesn't even include the factor of patents if you come up with something worthy
of being called new. You can lose fifty grand before you even make your first holder, and
then you still run the risk of it being pirated. Making something for personal use is completely different than making it for a market.

[goamules]

$400 for a used wooden 11x14 film holder?

C'mon. $20 worth of wood and a few hours worth of work??... I'm sure someone with rudimentary wood working skills can make these for $50 all day long.

Yep, this guy can. Here's your camera first. Next, your film holder.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8032/8055367497_b623ec7836_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/62218065@N00/8055367497/in/pool-largeformat)

[ROL]

Ultracrepidarian.

It's rare that I come across anything truly worthwhile in these forums. My dictionary is still smoking. You must be quite a hoot at parties.:rolleyes:

[Vaughn]

There is an old saying: "The people who claim something cannot be done should not interrupt those actually doing it".

This proves it to be correct!Steve.

Actually I have heard no one saying here that it can not be done (if that is what you are suggesting with the quote)...only that it would a project that would take a lot of research, material, proper tools, and time.

I applaud those who take the time to make such things -- and also those who prefer to buy them and spend their time making new images.

[karl french]

I do what I can.

[Louis Pacilla]

Yep, this guy can. Here's your camera first. Next, your film holder.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8032/8055367497_b623ec7836_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/62218065@N00/8055367497/in/pool-largeformat)

That's actually a very cool bird house Garrett. If that's what it is?

Did you make it or "snip it" form an eBay sale or like?

[Drew Wiley]

I sell a variety of machines which would actually make a filmholder project in something
machinable like hardwood or phenolic fairly easy. But any of my customers who buy that
kind of thing aren't going to amortize it making someone a filmholder, that is, unless they
can get a few thousand dollars apiece for one. But if someone already has a reasonably equipped shop and likes doing this kind of thing, why not? I think it would be fun, though it certainly isn't on my personal list of things to do.

[goamules]

That's actually a very cool bird house Garrett. If that's what it is?

Did you make it or "snip it" form an eBay sale or like? I spotted it on Flickr, click the original pic and I have an attribution link to the builder.

[E. von Hoegh]

It's rare that I come across anything truly worthwhile in these forums. My dictionary is still smoking. You must be quite a hoot at parties.:rolleyes:

It's a comment on an attitude which is part of what is now known as the Dunning-Kruger effect, and it traces back to one of the Plinys.

[SpeedGraphicMan]

Actually with a reasonable knowledge of machining... It would be fairly easy to make them out on aluminum.
Cost would be about $20-25 in materials if you ordered in bulk (20 foot lengths).
About 1 and 1/2 hours max to build.

It is always harder the first time... But if you made some custom jigs for repetitive cuts, it would be easy as pie!

Hmm... Might be a good way to supplement my income if I had the extra time!

[Drew Wiley]

For only about 3K in new equip I could precision make them from cherrywood or phenolic
with a high degree of repeat accuracy as far as subcomponents go. Gluing everything up
with light traps etc would be the time-consuming issue. I don't think you could do that with aluminum unless you had a far higher investment in gear and ordered custom extrusions. And extrusions aren't all that straight! Truly machined aluminum would be another story. The darkslides could be cut CNC easily enough. But a lot of time would be
needed to polish sharp edges and burrs and install light traps. I have one of those old
alum. 8x10 holders which were allegedly the best in their day. A lot of hand filing and fiddling was involved. Extrusions would simplify that task but not eliminate it. Yeah, I've seen machines where a bar of brass was fed into one end and ringing bells dropped out
the other end. Not exactly the kind of thing a home shop can afford.

[Brian C. Miller]

Actually, there's a number of extremely high strength aluminum epoxy glues. Some of these glues can be used to replace rivets, so they would do a fine job on an aluminum holder. Since aluminum holders have been made in the past, I'm sure they can be made today. But of course, the OP wants them cheaply...

[Drew Wiley]

I pretty skeptical that they could ever be made cheaply for anything other than personal
use. Pretty hard to beat injected-moulded plastic like Fidelity or Lisco, at least at wholesale cost. I have would-be inventors and small-scale fabricators visiting my office all
the time with get-rich ideas - often clever and useful gadgets, but utterly financially unrealistic when I start rattling off all the customary overhead that goes between a prototype model and serial production. Yeah, if someone needs some special personal use
holders and can make some extra for friends to help pay for the materials, why not? But
no actual manufacturer can operate on that premise.

[Curt]

$400 for a used wooden 11x14 film holder?

C'mon. $20 worth of wood and a few hours worth of work??

No fuckin' way. I'm sure someone with rudimentary wood working skills can make these for $50 all day long.


WAY!

I'm making 11X14 film holders to ANSI standard specifications. It's not woodworking, carpentry or general shop skills that are required. It's precision instrument making skill. Anyone who thinks they can be pumped out for fifty bucks doesn't have a clue to the intricacies involved.

[Michael Cienfuegos]

$400 for a used wooden 11x14 film holder?

C'mon. $20 worth of wood and a few hours worth of work??

No fuckin' way. I'm sure someone with rudimentary wood working skills can make these for $50 all day long.


WAY!

I'm making 11X14 film holders to ANSI standard specifications. It's not woodworking, carpentry or general shop skills that are required. It's precision instrument making skill. Anyone who thinks they can be pumped out for fifty bucks doesn't have a clue to the intricacies involved.

Aw, c'mon, Curt. He is a wizard with his skill saw, a roll of gaffer's tape and a few old hardwood machinery pallets. ;) :rolleyes:

[E. von Hoegh]

Aw, c'mon, Curt. He is a wizard with his skill saw, a roll of gaffer's tape and a few old hardwood machinery pallets. ;) :rolleyes:

You forgot the hotmelt glue gun.

[Scott Walker]

Aw, c'mon, Curt. He is a wizard with his skill saw, a roll of gaffer's tape and a few old hardwood machinery pallets. ;) :rolleyes:

:D That made my morning :D

[Vaughn]

WAY!

I'm making 11X14 film holders to ANSI standard specifications. It's not woodworking, carpentry or general shop skills that are required. It's precision instrument making skill. Anyone who thinks they can be pumped out for fifty bucks doesn't have a clue to the intricacies involved.

Hey Curt! Knock out 4 or 5 for me when you have the time. By the first week of November would be fine. I'll trade you a print for them...:cool:

[Drew Wiley]

Heck... I can make anything using of a double-bit axe, and spiked ball, and a belt sander.

[Jim Andrada]

Just wondered if anyone had made book-style holders with any success? Seems like it would be a lot easier. At least for woodworker types like me.

[Drew Wiley]

Mido made book-style sleeves to go over an otherwise thin-pattern conventional holder. Called a Mido II, and used special plastics rather than wood. The idea was to save space
and weight. But the bookish adapter was the weak point relative to light leaks.