Is the Sinar Auto Shutter Worth the Money? [Archive]

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RedSun

3-Oct-2012, 06:24

Frank Petronio

3-Oct-2012, 06:35

The metered back is not popular for a variety of reasons and it can be clumsy in the field.

The Auto-Shutter will work with both DB and older barrel-mounted lenses depending how you mount them. While most people use normal lenses mounted with Copal shutters, the Sinar shutter allows you to use a variety of inexpensive or exotic lenses without the expense and hassle of mounting them in individual shutters.

RedSun

3-Oct-2012, 07:16

So the DB mounted lenses are only suitable for Sinar shutter?

Also, how much the set of auto shutter and metered back would cost? $500 or higher? In decent lightly condition.

Amedeus

3-Oct-2012, 07:57

DB mounted lenses are only suitable for the Sinar shutter as these lenses don't have a shutter mounted, only an aperture. One can remount DB lenses into the corresponding Copal shutter in my experience but that's not the goal of the Sinar shutter ;)

A well functioning Sinar shutter routinely fetches over to well over $500 with the cable releases ... the latter are hard to find and expensive if you don't get them together with the shutter ... caveat ... ymmv ...

Metered backs fetch routinely over $200 and don't make sense if you don't have the full metering solution, this is probe and matching light meter

In my opinion ... it is worth the money ... I have a few of them :)

So the DB mounted lenses are only suitable for Sinar shutter?

Also, how much the set of auto shutter and metered back would cost? $500 or higher? In decent lightly condition.

Len Middleton

3-Oct-2012, 08:02

So the DB mounted lenses are only suitable for Sinar shutter?

Or lens cap, darkslide, top hat (or ball cap for less formal settings), Packard shutter (or similar), or Galli patented shutter, or any other solutions used for barrel mounted lenses.

The Sinar Copal does seem to be a much more elegant solutions however...

Frank Petronio

3-Oct-2012, 08:08

Most people will happily trade you their darn no-good bulky get-in-the-way metered backs for a nicer non-metered back. The metered back deserves no premium price, most people hate them.

Note that in 8x10 Sinar changed the bellows between the metered back and earlier non-metered versions so make sure you know what you are buying. All the 4x5 bellows are interchangeable.

The DB lens mounting is designed to automatically open and close/stop down the lens when you insert the holder, one button opens the lens for focusing, everything can operate from behind the camera - if you have compatible cables and match the right era parts up. It can be a real hassle to sort it all out now that everything is dated but if you buy a matching outfit then it works pretty slick (as long as the $150 cable is good and the lens apertures are not gummed up).

The DB mounting moves the rear of the lens forward of the shutter blades, this adds to their expense and complication. What you can do is set up the lens on normal flat boards and mount the shutter on an intermediate standard. Use a second bellows to join the shutter to the front standard so you can then use any old lens regardless of how much sticks out of the rear. Here is how Ken Lee did it: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?36782-Show-off-your-camera!&p=682128&viewfull=1#post682128

All of this stuff adds to complexity in the field and has more failure points. The ideal back in the day of shooting dozens of studio catalog shots per day was that the photographer could meter and adjust everything from one spot behind the camera, shouting at assistants to move lights and being really productive. But it was intended for a nice controlled studio environment, not running around outdoors or for shooting a few sheets at a time.

Ken Lee

3-Oct-2012, 08:28

You might find this short article (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/lenses/index.php#Shutter) helpful.

aluncrockford

4-Oct-2012, 12:47

It is also worth mentioning the Expolux shutter which was a small electronic box which connected the shutter and meter,it was very accurate and the saving of not having to bracket was considerable. It took a reading and set the shutter, when the slide was put in the back it then closed the shutter and stopped down, it was the finest studio shutter ever made, needless to say Sinar stopped making it years ago and will not service it any more, and as such best avoided

rdenney

4-Oct-2012, 13:04

What is the advantage of the Sinar Auto Shutter? I know you can use use the Sinar DB mounted lenses and they are cheaper. But there are plenty of lenses mounted the standard way.

Also, for the metered back, who meter probes do people use?

Here's the application scenario: Shutter on the back of the front standard or on an intermediate standard, iris clamp on a Sinar board on the front of the front standard, and any barrel lens or lens with a broken shutter in the iris clamp.

For those who like the idea of buying lenses in barrels rather than shutters, using the Sinar shutter avoids the need and expense of installing a shutter or fabricating something custom to provide a shutter. It only takes a few of those sorts of lenses to make the Sinar shutter seem pretty cheap. I have some medium-format lenses I'd like to mount on my Sinar, for example, and the above arrangement makes that possible.

(DB mounted lenses provide conveniences all their own, especially allowing the photographer to view at full aperture and work from behind the camera, the same as with a fixed-body camera. I personally wouldn't spend the money for that feature, however, though I might if I did a lot of studio work.)

Rick "who owns the shutter and the iris clamp, but not one single DB-mounted lens" Denney

Captain_joe6

4-Oct-2012, 13:46

I feel completely the opposite about my 8x10 metered back, which I use regularly. Being able to spot meter within the camera is, in my opinion, a very nice feature. I use an older Gossen Profi-Select TTL probe which attaches to my Gossen Ultra-Pro (ProfiSix) and Luna-Pro SBC meters depending on what I need to accomplish. Of all the meter options available for Sinar probes, the Gossen probe is the best and the rarest, as it is at least 2 EV's more sensitive than any of the other meters meant for probes. This is important with the probe since the amount of light being measured is much, much smaller than under regular reflected use.

The Copal-made Auto-Aperture Shutter is also a joy, but would only be so with all the cables in place. If you weren't interested in using specific lenses to provided specific looks (antique lenses and such), then pretty much anything you can get that screws directly into a copal shutter will screw to a DB board and work exactly the same. I like my Sironar-N just fine.

On the other hand, as I said, I use all of this with an 8x10, and it is a Sinar P2, so between the camera and the accessory fittings, and the tripod, and film holders, there isn't much of a chance hauling the setup into the field with anything less than my Jeep. I drive directly to 99% of the locations I shoot from.

RedSun

10-Oct-2012, 08:02

rdenney

10-Oct-2012, 08:27

I have decided not to go with the Sinar auto shutter. The fastest shutter speed is 1/60, only suitable for studio and still-life. I know this is what mono rail cameras are for, but I do not like this limit. Also, I already have several regular Copal mounted lenses and I do not plan to swap them for the DB mounted ones. Besides, the prices for the regular lenses are getting cheaper (if you find the right ones)....

Really? I find I'm never needing a shutter speed even that fast.

Maybe it would be different if I was shooting an aero-Ektar wide open in bright sun, but then I'd need a shutter speed faster than just about any shutter provides, and I'd still need a neutral density filter. Most of the time, I'm at f/22 or f/32, and using shutter speed of about 1/30 or slower. 1/15 to 1/2 is the most-used range on my lenses.

My Ilex No. 4 shutters are only accurate to maybe 1/100, and that's only half a stop faster than 1/60. Ilex No. 5 shutters are rarely usable beyond 1/30, and even Copal No. 3 shutters only go a stop faster than 1/60 to 1/125.

What shutter speeds do you typically use with large format?

Rick "usually trying to make everything sharp, which is not always everyone's objective" Denney

Lachlan 717

10-Oct-2012, 12:34

"Only for studio"? Rubbish. I regularly use mine in the field.

I'm about to make an adaptor so that I can mount it on my 7x17 for field use.

As for only going to 1/60th, have you shot many non-studio LF images? IMO the shutter's ability to time up to 8 seconds is an amazing benefit. It far outweighs the remote possibility of one day needing to put a ND filter on the lens to control too much light.

I'm fairly sure that you don't really understand these shutters when you write about remounting your existing lenses into DB mounts...

Captain_joe6

10-Oct-2012, 13:14

Since when have LF people been complaining about this "too much light" nonsense? I hope this doesn't become the same sort of fad as 'digital photography'... ;)

Frank Petronio

10-Oct-2012, 14:46

If you need a shutter larger than a Copal 3, there isn't anything faster in a neat, factory-finished package that goes faster than 1/60th - and in the case of an ACME 5 like many people use, its 1/60 is more like 1/25th on a good day. Sure you can rig a Speed Graphic to serve as a shutter and it will get you close to 1/1000th but the clunkiness factor is out of sight.

Ken Lee

10-Oct-2012, 15:16

Under full sunshine, a film with speed of 250 would get an exposure of 1/60 @ f/32. With a yellow filter, that becomes 1/60 @ f/22: the sweet spot for many large format lenses. With a polarizer or an orange filter - or less light - or slower film - we're moving away from 1/60.

Like Lahlan, I use mine in the field. I can't remember ever taking a LF photo at anything faster than 1/60 second.

Lachlan 717

11-Oct-2012, 01:33

All the 4x5 bellows are interchangeable. http://www.*******.com/5-7.jpg

?

William Whitaker

11-Oct-2012, 08:16

I have decided not to go with the Sinar auto shutter. The fastest shutter speed is 1/60, only suitable for studio and still-life. I know this is what mono rail cameras are for, but I do not like this limit. Also, I already have several regular Copal mounted lenses and I do not plan to swap them for the DB mounted ones....

To claim that 1/60 second is "only suitable for studio and still-life" is really missing the boat. As some other people have said, 1/60 is pretty fast in the LF world. While Sinar intended their shutter be used for DB-mounted lenses, that's not necessarily the case. If your lens is mounted in a working shutter, that doesn't mean you have to have it remounted as a DB. You just use the lens normally, either leaving the Sinar shutter open or removing it from the camera completely. In fact, any lens that doesn't protrude excessively to the rear can be used. And that includes some older barrel lenses and lenses mounted in shutters that may not work properly.

In a way, the Sinar shutter gives you the best of both worlds. I recently completed a conversion of a Kodak Master so that it can use a Sinar shutter. (See this thread (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?95707-An-Old-Master-with-a-New-Trick) if you missed it.) The whole purpose of that was to have a camera that was portable enough to be used away from the studio/still life situation.

It sounds like you're not really sure what you ultimately want. Fast shutter speeds and everything sharp is the domain of the smaller formats and digital. There's a big wide world of large format. There's no harm in sticking to what you've got for now until you have a better idea. It gets expensive fast. Don't ask me how I know.

Frank Petronio

11-Oct-2012, 08:44

I wouldn't bother with a Sinar shutter for "normal" work with common lenses. True you can save some money with shutterless lenses or used Sinar DB-mounted lenses - if you shop carefully - but having lenses in traditional Copal/Compurs offers at least as many advantages, making it a wash at best.

Go for the Sinar shutter after you've photographed a while and decided you want to use some exotic lens or if you stumble upon some super-bargain DB lenses if you buy some desperate photographer's firesale outfit, etc.

But for normal, everyday use you have to weigh:

~ Sinar Shutter - consistent shutter between lenses versus having "All your eggs in one basket" if it fails

~ Copal/Compur - shutter speeds 4-6x faster up to 1/500th on smaller sizes

~ Copal/Compur - lighter, compact

~ Copal/Compur - more familiar to others, like assistants. Perhaps easier resale too.

~ Sinar Shutter cables are proprietary, expensive, and becoming rarer

~ Many people selling their DB lenses aren't pricing them all that much less.... Usually you get the best deal when you buy a package including camera, shutter, and DB lenses from some commercial studio unloading their entire kit.

A Sinar shutter in good shape seems to be selling for around $500 these days. For that you can easily buy a nice Speed Graphic with a 1/1000th focal plane shutter and mount smaller barrel lenses (up to an Aero-Ektar) if you want to experiment. For a lot of the "speed" lenses and the shallow depth-of-field pictures that are so trendy these days, a Speed with it's faster shutter makes more sense.

Not saying I would kick a free Sinar shutter out of bed but I'd want a reason to own it before investing....

RedSun

11-Oct-2012, 09:55

Sevo

11-Oct-2012, 10:06

As for my situation, I shoot mainly outdoors, various projects/assignments. All my lenses are Copal mounted, not a single DB mounted lens. But I received the Sinar auto shutter in my camera package. I was deciding if I should start acquiring some DB lenses, or just stick with the Copal mounted lenses I have.

If you have the shutter, you can pick up DB lenses whenever you run into a good opportunity, and barrel mount lenses as well. But in my opinion, switching or upgrading lenses either way would be a waste of time and money - both shutter mount and Auto shutter/DB mount have no major issues or drawbacks worth the hassle selling/buying lenses or locating matching DB mount boards. Personally I have the shutter (and a spare) plus many DB mount lenses still around from studio days, and have no intention to switch the other way, for the same reason...

Drew Wiley

11-Oct-2012, 10:08

While the Sinar and similar monorails systems are wonderful in the studio, 99% of what I use one for is outdoors, with decades of experience doing this in everything from architectural location shooting to downright mountaineering. But regarding motion, virtually
no view camera is exactly a sports camera. Handheld technical cameras and Speed Graphics were once used with flash, and still can be. And typical LF leaf shutters are poor at high speeds anyway, as if anyone cared. Yes, you could stop a speeding bullet or hummingbird in flight using a view camera and strobe, and it's obviously been done. But what is the reason for you purchasing a Sinar kit in the first place?

rdenney

11-Oct-2012, 11:05

I do not really know why my single statement can bring this much heated discussion.

I stand with my statement that mono rail view cameras like Sinar was designed more for the studio and still-life, not for motion or any motion-related assignments. Clearly 1/60 is not adequate for sport related situation. Well you do not use Sinar to take sports any way.

The sharp stick in the anthill was the notion that these were the two choices. Of course, there is a vast array of photographic possibilities between "studio" and "action".

It is certainly true that the Sinar shutter is made for a camera that, like ALL view cameras, is not designed for use while following action. If you want to do that with large format, a press camera like a Speed Graphic really is your best bet.

For much photography in that broad category we might call "outdoor still photography using a large-format view camera", shutter speeds faster than 1/60 will be pretty rarely needed. Since that was one of your stated reasons for avoiding that direction, it was challenged. That seems fair to me.

There are good reasons to wait on getting a Sinar shutter if your lenses are already mounted in shutters (and if you didn't already own one). But its main value for those who do not buy into the whole DB concept (as is the case with me) is the ability to use and experiment with lenses that don't have shutters in them at all. Some lenses--like many process lenses--have good application in the field but don't always come in shutters. Mounting them in shutters can get expensive. This is particularly true for longer lenses. Other lenses have broken shutters, and replacing them might be harder than using a Sinar shutter (example: I own three lenses that require a Compur No. 00 shutter--the Copal and Prontor No. 00 shutters often interfere with the lens barrel because they really have No. 0 innards and a bigger case--and the Compurs are all but unobtainable at this point). And then there's the whole category of ancient barrel lenses or ancient shutters that can't be restored. Maybe you'd like to experiment with some medium-format lenses that don't have shutters (I have a few in that category). But the majority of photographers never deal with these issues at all, and it makes sense not to consider the subject until and if the need arises.

As Frank points out, using the DB approach as a cost-saving means probably won't work. But some do it because they really want the feature of being able to work from behind the camera to set aperture and shutter speed, even in the field. It is not without appeal, irrespective of cost. Those folks would look at it like this: It doesn't really cost any more to have that feature, by using the Sinar shutter and a range of generally less expensive DB-mounted lenses.

My advice to you would be: Keep the Sinar shutter. It gives you the option of grabbing a great deal on a DB-mounted lens that you really want, and it gives you the option of exploring barrel lenses. And if a shutter breaks at an innoportune moment, it gives you a possible workaround. If you are absolutely sure these cases won't apply to you, then sell it--there will be plenty of willing buyers.

Rick "who doesn't have to skip past the listings for DB-mounted or barrel lenses" Denney

Sevo

11-Oct-2012, 11:17

It is certainly true that the Sinar shutter is made for a camera that, like ALL view cameras, is not designed for use while following action. If you want to do that with large format, a press camera like a Speed Graphic really is your best bet.

Large format focal plane shutters tend to have a 1/5 to 1/20s travel across the frame, and firing them on a moving subject with a 1/1000s slot width will create very bizarre effects. If any, the few 1/500s and 1/1000s capable leaf shutters would do. But these are 00 or 0 sized - there are not that many LF lenses that will fit, and the ones that do are very short or very slow.

rdenney

11-Oct-2012, 14:16

Large format focal plane shutters tend to have a 1/5 to 1/20s travel across the frame, and firing them on a moving subject with a 1/1000s slot width will create very bizarre effects.

You can do your Lartigue imitation.

Rick "or use a flash" Denney

Leigh

12-Oct-2012, 01:08

RedSun

12-Oct-2012, 06:21

I can see the merit of using the auto shutter with some old lenses or lenses with broken shutters. For those lenses, you may need more clearing space between the lens and shutter. Can you attach a middle standard and a bellow in between them?

Sure the auto shutter is very appealing for the folks who have a large collection of various lenses over many many years. Now with the prices dropping, I just stock the best and more common lenses I use often. They have been very reliable and will likely last a long time.

I think I'm going to keep it for some time just to see how things go. Maybe it can command more money in a few years, but I doubt it.

Frank Petronio

12-Oct-2012, 07:31

Can you attach a middle standard and a bellow in between them?

Yep

If you need $300 to $500 (depending) sell it, otherwise keep it. In a few years the Sinar will be nearly worthless so if you're worried about resale, the prices are as high as they will ever be as of now.

Any large format gear I own now is going to the grave with me ;-p