Black jacket focusing cloth users...

[Meekyman]

Hi Folks,

I am setting myself up some bits and pieces for starting an adventure in LF! I've got a chamonix 045n-2 and the only remaining things I need to get before I can go and play is some film and a dark cloth. I did a one day workshop and there we used a btzs dark cloth. It seemed OK, but there was a definite gap between the bottom of the rear standard and the focusing bed (right term?) and light came in. Also, there seemed a lot of material in it, such that even with a gentle wind I was having to remove material from obscuring my view. I want to make using the LF camera as painless as possible.

I read about black jacket focusing cloths. The design makes sense but I wonder if

1) if you are using your arm to sheild wind and that hand with the loupe, how much of a pain is it to focus with...not sure I am that ambidextrous?

2) Is it generally good quality?
3) How waterproof is it?


Thanks

Graham

[Frank Petronio]

I have one for really bright days when I want a very dark focusing cloth but I rarely use it because it seems so stupidly over complex. It is nice to have something that is absolutely dark but it takes so long to set up and deal with the arm holes and general BS that I only get it out for special occasions. Not saying it isn't nice to have but it is low on my priority list and I think a simple flat cloth would be fine instead. The Black Jacket seems like an invention in need of a problem.

It's a lot more effective to train yourself to use a jacket or your shirt and deal with not having absolute perfect darkness and getting the job done. If you're spending more than a couple of minutes under the cloth then come out and figure out what you're doing wrong - I've seen some newbies spend half and hour underneath and wonder whatever could they be doing?

I'm sure it is waterproof and the workmanship is good.

Also don't share them, I went under one once that used by a hair tonic user and it was gross.

[Meekyman]

Thanks for that Frank!

See your points, but as a beginner on a beginner's course I must say that initially what caught my eye when under the dark cloth (btzs tube) was my own reflection and I guess that was because of the light coming through the gap. So, complete darkness makes sense a bit to me.

I guess if it isn't too windy, you don't have to use the sleeves or does the design mean that to get the focus knob that it is impossible not to use the sleeves?

Cheers

Graham

[Mark Stahlke]

I use a Black Jacket focusing cloth all the time. I love it. I like the sleeves. They provide access to the rear control knobs and they're nice for focusing but I don't use them all the time. I find a regular focusing cloth to be a pain in the wind and not dark enough.

[Andrew O'Neill]

The BTZS hood shouldn't have been mounted around the bed of the camera. Any hood would let in tremendous amount of light if it were mounted that way. It should only wrap around the rear standard. Mine slips nicely around the back of a Canham light weight 8x10. Darker than nun's britches in there.

[vinny]

get a xxl white t shirt and a xxl black t shirt, sew the neck and sleeves together, stretch neck over camera. there's a darkcloth.

[Peter Lewin]

a xxl black t shirt, sew the neck and sleeves together, stretch neck over camera. there's a darkcloth.
That's my solution as well, except that I don't even sew anything, simply use the black t-shirt as it is; works fine.

[mikebarger]

I like my black jacket, but it's all I've ever used. Like anything else it's repetitions that make you good at it.

[ImSoNegative]

i have 2 of them, 1 for the 8x10 and i for my 4x5, they work great

[Andrew O'Neill]

I should add that a good friend of mine (John Fee, mountain climber and shale lover), briefly had a black jacket. Perhaps he could chime in about his experience with it....

[rdenney]

I'm a big fan of my blackjacket. The material is slippery so that it isn't grabby, and it gets away with being slipper because of the elastic camera hole. I put my loupe in my left hand, stick it through the sleeve, stick my head in the opening, and leave my right hand out to adjust the camera. It blocks like coming from below better than any conventional dark cloth, and it's opaque without being bulky and heavy. It folds easily into its bag, unlike those things that require specialized origami to return into their containers. Most importantly, I have not cussed at it nor thrown it to the ground in disgust, and it's the first focusing cloth I've used that has achieved that.

Rick "who has used all the other usual options at one time or another" Denney

[Thad Gerheim]

I cherish my blackjacket! Keith and Annette Walklet, who make them, are among the finest photographers and people there are.

[Jim Noel]

I use one for 8x10 and like it very much. My arms in the sleeves assist in keeping it off the ground glass when it is windy. For 4x5 and 5x7 I just use a heavy black T-shirt which works well also. The Black Jacket is much easier to handle and use than my 5'x7' dark cloth which is a must for the 7x17. It also folds up very small and is easy to pack.

[aporodagon]

Andy, your description of me almost gave me a heart attack (inside joke). I'm with Frank on this one. The BlackJacket is great but does take a bit of setup time (I had the one with the dark slide removal slot so proper orientation on the camera was important. Also you need a different BlackJacket for each camera format. These days I travel light and just use a piece of blackout cloth (white) which I painted black on the outside.

[Mark Stahlke]

Also you need a different BlackJacket for each camera format.I use my 8x10 Blackjacket on my 4x5 camera with no problems at all.

[ROL]

1) I generally carry one, but have also never quite worked out how to use the sleeves with my camera as effectively as demonstrated on the site.

2) Very good, thoughtful construction.

3) I think they're all constructed of heavy duty waterproof and/or breathable fabrics.

But then, there's also this:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAwIWZ9H3ZU

[rdenney]

(snipped, stuff that I mostly agree with...)

But then, there's also this: (Video of using a plain parka)

There is not one parka on that guy's list that costs less than the Blackjacket. The idea must be that we already have a parka. But if it's cold enough to need a parka, I want to be wearing the damn thing.

And I can have my Blackjacket set up and in use by the time he is done futzing with the zipper, let alone the elastic waistband or whatever.

And then there's the size rolled up. My Blackjacket fits inside my Sinar case, along with all the other stuff I carry in that case, which is a lot.

Rick "who'd use a cheapie bed throw if the Blackjacket was really too expensive" Denney

[Robert Budding]

I've used a BlackJacket for several years now. No complaints.

[ROL]

There is not one parka on that guy's list that costs less than the Blackjacket. The idea must be that we already have a parka. But if it's cold enough to need a parka, I want to be wearing the damn thing.

And I can have my Blackjacket set up and in use by the time he is done futzing with the zipper, let alone the elastic waistband or whatever.

And then there's the size rolled up. My Blackjacket fits inside my Sinar case, along with all the other stuff I carry in that case, which is a lot.

Rick "who'd use a cheapie bed throw if the Blackjacket was really too expensive" Denney

"Snippy" today aren't we?

The zipper and waistband only need be be sized once, unless you are wearing it prior to shooting, for any size view camera up to 11X14, larger depending on how tubby you are. The circumstance for the video is that it is a versatile, make-do item, something one might already have and decide to carry with them anyhow. The fact is that such an item works at least as well as any other 'darkcloth' on the market. It has been worn many times descending a trail in the cool of the evening, having used it for both wind and rain protection and shooting earlier in the day. Technical windbreakers of the type shown sell from $40 - $80 new, but then they can be worn for full outer layer protection against the elements. The black one shown was a $5 return. Sometimes weight and cost are an issue. Carry two. Carry it and a Blackjacket (I have both). Carry it and a black t-shirt and a Blackjacket!

You are correct that a simple windbreaker, doesn't require an expensive camera case in which to be stowed.

The video was intended to be a lighthearted look at an inexpensive, versatile item. It is not commercial in any way. Are you really that upset that there could be a practical option to the BlackJacket? It's an option, buddy – don't get all worked up over it.


ROL "who now wonders what financial stake Rick has in the BlackJacket?" :D

[mikebarger]

I got the 5x7 for my 4x5 just in case I run into a bout of GAS. Works well.

[Eric James]

Having watched the embedded video I'd have to say that the Black Jacket makes a better jacket than a jacket makes a dark cloth. I've used a Black Jacket on a Ebony 4X5 and liked it very much.

For the short period that I used a Chamonix 4X5 I preferred using Ebony's small dark cloth - it's lighter and more compact, and the Black Jacket seemed a bit bulky for the Chamonix's rear standard.

Eric "who on occasion has resorted to wearing a Black Jacket" James

[Struan Gray]

I use a Hybrid 5x7 Blackjacket on my 4x5 Norma. Prior to getting it I used a T-shirt. It is better than the T-shirt by enough to justify the price. For my use, the biggest benefits were better lightproofing and higher water-resistance.

1) I have used mine in side-on gale-force winds. I could have done with a third arm - one to focus, one to loupe, one to hold the windward side away from my face - but just moving my upwind arm inside the cloth and sticking my elbow out a bit worked well enough.

2) The quality on mine is excellent. It does now have that sought-after outward bound cagoule smell, but that just adds to the outdoor adventure.

3) I don't leave my camera set up in heavy downpours, but I do leave it in moderate rain and drizzle while waiting for a clearing or the right light. In that case, it is actually really useful to drape the Blackjacket forwards over the camera and lens and use it as a rain cover. This may be one reason for the cagoule smell :-)


I do get light coming in between the bottom of the standard and the Blackjacket. How much you will suffer from this depends on the design of your camera back. On my Sinar Norma the Blackjacket loops nicely around the whole rear standard, and the rear frame with the ground glass is a sub-frame within that, so there is space around the edges, particularly at the bottom. I can't say I'm bothered by it, and have only had minor practical problems when shooting towards the setting sun. I think modern Blackjackets come with some kind of flap you can stick in there with Velcro, but you're unlikely to need it in UK conditions.

[rdenney]

"Snippy" today aren't we?

Probably. I'm still grumpy at the potential death of my Nikon scanner.

But on a more serious note, I sometimes find it ironic that guys who favor spending real money on ancient wooden cameras (or their modern replicas) cheap out on really important accessories like focus cloths, loupes, and focus screens. And those accessories often make a bigger difference on the quality of the experience of large-format photography than do cameras and lenses.

I didn't see the video as a satire on this inveterate cheapness, so maybe I missed the joke. I watched the video half expecting the dog to knock over the camera while the guy was tangled up in his parka/focusing cloth, based on the comments. Now, that would have been funny.

Rick "whose only financial stake in Blackjacket is having bought one" Denney

[Meekyman]

Hi Everyone,

The OP here....reckon it's looking like 50/50 but I guess that whenever you ask about something you always get those that love it and those that don't.

Thanks Eric, as you have actually used one on a chamonix. Was it tiresome, or did the bulk mean that light entered?

Cheers

Graham

[Eric James]

If you look at the first embedded photo in BarryS's review ( http://tinyurl.com/8d6su79 ), you'll be able imagine the problems you'll run into. Along the top of the rear standard you have to carefully position the elastic of the Black Jacket; if it becomes dislodged it will either pop off the back, or engulf the rear standard and come to rest on the bellows. On the bottom of the rear standard there's really not enough room for the elastic band - it'll easily pop off the back. To prevent this you're forced to extend the Black Jacket opening around the camera's base, but then you compromise your access to the tilt and rear extension knobs. It's unfortunate because both the Chamonix and the Black Jacket are great designs - they just don't play well together.

[Meekyman]

Hi Eric,

Thanks for that.....actual user experience of both the black jacket and the chamonix helps me a lot and I can easily see what you're saying.

On a workshop where I used a Chamonix, we used the btzs tube type hood and that seemed OK but a bit of contortion of my arm getting the loupe in there without opening up too much such that no end of light came in. Maybe user inexperience? I'll look into Ebony's small dark cloth that you mentioned in your earlier post.

Cheers

Graham

[welly]

I've got two blackjackets - the 8x10 and 5x7 (for my 4x5s). I think they're brilliant and not unreasonably priced. Having read what Eric said above, I can see where he might be coming from with that comment. My current field camera has a handle on the top which I have the black jacket wrap around so it stays in place fine. I'm actually going to pick up the same camera as you so will be interesting to see how it gets on with it. We shall see and I'll let you know.

[Meekyman]

"I'm actually going to pick up the same camera as you so will be interesting to see how it gets on with it. We shall see and I'll let you know."

Thanks Welly!

Graham

[Martin Aislabie]

Have you thought about a Walker Darkcloth available from Mike Walker of Walker Cameras ?

At the moment it is my Darkcloth of choice - small, light easy to put on the camera and snug fit for my head.

Its not the darkest Darkcloth I have ever used - but its fine for what I want/need

Just offering an alternative for you to consider

Martin

[Ed Bray]

Andy, your description of me almost gave me a heart attack (inside joke). I'm with Frank on this one. The BlackJacket is great but does take a bit of setup time (I had the one with the dark slide removal slot so proper orientation on the camera was important. Also you need a different BlackJacket for each camera format. These days I travel light and just use a piece of blackout cloth (white) which I painted black on the outside.

Okay, I'll bite as no one else has, why would you paint the outside black? Wouldn't you want the black side inwards to prevent stray light bouncing around and the reflection of the white side onto the ground glass? and wouldn't you want the white side on the outside to reflect the sun and keep the heat down inside the focusing cloth?

[Meekyman]

Hi Folks,

In the end I have ordered a btzs tube thingy as at least I know what to expect from the workshop I did with this and a chamonix. I guess if I don't get along with it, I could always pass it on at not much loss.

Cheers

Graham

[Martin Aislabie]

Hi Folks,

In the end I have ordered a btzs tube thingy as at least I know what to expect from the workshop I did with this and a chamonix. I guess if I don't get along with it, I could always pass it on at not much loss.

Cheers

Graham

Let us know how you get on with it - please

Martin

[Frank Petronio]

That's right, you can usually resell an experiment for about 2/3s of what you pay so it's not that bad a price to know. I should probably sell my Black Jacket, I prefer a simpler solution.

[przemur]

I have ordered mave some time ago. But, frankly, almost never use it. It has great capabilities and build quality, but for me, it is perhaps "overengineered" a bit. Don't get me wrong - it works great. But as other noticed - setting it up takes a while. It also takes space - and if someone likes to travel light - it might be a bit too much.

I found that for landscape photography, the viewing hood of my Chamonix is enough almost all of the time. And for studio or portrait stuff, I just grab any kind of cloth I have in my range and don't bother with setting up the black jacket. Perhaps I'm too sloppy...

[welly]

I have ordered mave some time ago. But, frankly, almost never use it. It has great capabilities and build quality, but for me, it is perhaps "overengineered" a bit. Don't get me wrong - it works great. But as other noticed - setting it up takes a while. It also takes space - and if someone likes to travel light - it might be a bit too much.

I found that for landscape photography, the viewing hood of my Chamonix is enough almost all of the time. And for studio or portrait stuff, I just grab any kind of cloth I have in my range and don't bother with setting up the black jacket. Perhaps I'm too sloppy...

Does the Chamonix come with the viewing hood as standard or is this an optional extra? I'm planning on making a purchase on a Chamonix.

[Eric James]

No, it's an accessory. Have you discovered www.chamonixviewcamera.com?

[welly]

No, it's an accessory. Have you discovered www.chamonixviewcamera.com?

Never heard of it. Chamonix who?

[przemur]

The viewing hood is an optional item: http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/viewfinder.html - I use "folding viewer". There are various incarnations of it. E.g. all Graflexes I have seen in my life came with one, for instance.

[Kodachrome25]

I keep my folding hood on the back of my 45N-2 all the time. I had an issue with the carbon fiber protective cover rubbing on the ground glass and scratching it, the folding viewer does not do this. The only issue with it is that it gets to be a strange excercise in narrow field of view when shooting vertically. I also have the reflex viewer which is *very* nice for framing a shot when I can carry it like shooting short distances from the car.

Otherwise, I have a selection of black fleeces, shirts and jackets that work well, no darkcloth for me, doing great without it.

[Drew Bedo]

I use a hood (BTZS ?) that stretches over the rear frame and has a velcro closure. Silvery outside, flat black inside. Easy to set up and use. Packs small. Works for me.

If you are new to LF photography, don't over think every item of gear. Thee are many ways to get where you want to go. For me, half the fun is trying out new ways to do things, while keeping the things that work well for me.

[premortho]

I went to the truckstop, and bought the biggest lined insulated flannel jacket they had. When I get out of my pick-em-up, I put the coat on, hang an el cheapo backpack containing 3 or 4 sheetfilm holders, hang my Weston Master 111 around my neck, camera in my left hand, tripod in the right. When I set up, I take the jacket off and use it for a dark-cloth. In the winter time I use two jackets.

[gtmatias]

Hello there,

I'm thinking about tailoring a focusing cloth. Did anybody thought about "starting" with something like a Motley Tube (http://www.amazon.com/ZANheadgear-Fleece-Spandex-Motley-Black/dp/B001C5KKBG/ref=pd_sim_263_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=4197cawd8QL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=1D001B7Z1VB5CEKEKKK4)? One less thing to worry about. After using it, just put it around the neck like a scarf! (nice if it is cold!)

How much distance do you usually use between the head and the focusing screen? (4x5)

Regards

[Robert Langham]

3X4 feet, minimum, double-sided white and black. Can use white side as reflector. Sometimes takes one more black layer between to make them really dark, but that can make them too bulky. Use cotton, other types of fabric can slide off your head.

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[Pamelageewhizz]

I went cheap and got some fabric from Joann Fabrics. The white cloth I got is silky and the black with some tooth to it so it doesn't slide too much on my head. A bit of hand stiching (no sewing machine) while watching a movie and good to go. I think the whole thing cost me $5.

[john borrelli]

I think the problem with dark cloths is with the camera not the cloths.
In other words, the camera needs to be designed around the dark cloth rather than retrofitting the dark cloth to a particular type of camera. Not sure how Ebony or Linhof would feel about that!

So for example, the film standard should protrude further from the camera body toward the photographer.
There shouldn't be knobs or tilt axis standards anywhere near the back of the camera where the cloth attaches.
You should be able to slide the film holder into the camera through a slot so that you don't have to remove the cloth to open the spring-back of the camera.
The dark cloth should have a built in attachment frame so that it attaches to a frame on the camera that is light tight and about 1 inch or less around the groundglass.

I have used the Black Jacket, that BZTS tube thing, A dark cloth that I sewed long strips of velcro to, in order to turn it into a tube shape, this one was white on one side and black on the other. I am presently using an all black Delta I cloth without the weights.

[John Layton]

Its so obvious that dark cloth design needs to evolve. And its so sad that, generally speaking, the evolution of analogue-based photography has been truncated by digital R+D. Please, lets make an effort to buck this trend...and keep the evolution of analogue alive! Also...please consider my recent dark cloth post. Thanks!

[bomzi]

Black Jacket is great to use and I use it every time I shoot.

That said, you dont need it and, for a beginner, I would suggest using a tshirt to start with. Spend your money on film.

[gtmatias]

Black Jacket is great to use and I use it every time I shoot.

That said, you dont need it and, for a beginner, I would suggest using a tshirt to start with. Spend your money on film.

Hello,

I asked your opinion because I don't really like either jackets, cloths or the BTZS 4x5 Focus Hood (http://www.viewcamerastore.com/4x5-btzs-focus-hood-dark-cloth/)

The jackets:
volume.
Do your wear it?
Leave the sleeves hanging?
Between shoots or deciding the best place, how do you transport them?

Cloths:
volume.
Between shoots or deciding the best place, how do you transport them?

BTZS hood:
More compact.
Some people use it as an Motley tube or scarf, around the neck between shoots or deciding the best place.
Doesn´t look practical when you use a loupe to focus.

Until now I have been using the hood of coat that I'm wearing: not quite practical.

I really don't care much about spending money because I've been building my own equipment (developing equipment, camera, bellows...)
So, I'm thinking about something like the BTZS without the Velcro around the hole where I put my head and make a pocket / opening in the space between my head / camera so that I can put my hand with the loupe. After capturing the image, just use it around da neck.

After making a prototype, I'll share with you all. :D

Regards.

[seezee]

I bought some blackout cloth, which I also use to darken my bathroom for use as a darkroom, and some lightweight silver lamé (polyester, I think), plus some sew-on hook and loop fastener ('velcro'). Had my sister sew 'em together in a 40×40″ square with the velcro in the corners. Cloth weights (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/15853-REG/Delta_20330_Focusing_Cloth_Weights.html)from Adorama or B&H attach to the velcro on the inside of the cloth.

The blackout cloth is a little slippery, so if I do it again I'll make a 3-layer cloth with the blackout in the middle, and black cotton or linen on the inside.

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[Andrew O'Neill]

Been using the BTZS hood on my 8x10 for years. I don't bother closing up the velcro to focus with the loupe, unless I have some serious glare bouncing up from the ground... which has only happened working in snow and sand. It's pretty dark under there to focus. I wear the hood around my neck as a fashion statement. :cool:

[gtmatias]

That's what I like about the Btzs, Andrew. [emoji12]

My next step is to find a "good looking" exterior textile... Lol

[John Jarosz]

The BTZS hood is essential for ULF. It stays on my camera throughout the exposure and shields the back of the camera to prevent light leaks.

for 8x10 I just use my Zone VI cloth. I still drape it over the camera back during exposure but it seems easier with 8x10 compared to 8x20

[Jim Andrada]

I like the BTZS tube - have one for 8 x 10, 5 x 7, and 4 x 5. But don't get one from a smoker!

An added benefit is that the cat loves to sleep in them and I get all that free cat hair on my head. But I'm at the stage of life where anything that adds back a little hair is OK.

[gtmatias]

Good morning,

Not a BTZS tube, but a RAT Hood prototype :D

Fully ajustable, equipped with a slot with no velcro to insert a hand with a loupe, waterproof, lightproof and compact.
To be tested.

Sorry for the phone image quality. "The man with a viewcamera (and some sardines)".

(I'll make more images if you like)

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Regards.