PDA

View Full Version : Newbie question (how to use the 4x5 camera without accidentally moving it)



aruns
28-Sep-2012, 00:05
Hello,
I am a LF newbie. I have been a forum lurker for a few months, and been reading up on LF for a while now.
I have a Shen Hao HZX 4x5 iia, a Caltar 150mm IIn 5.6, and a Manfrotto 055 XPROB with 486 RC (older version) head. I use 4x5 film holders by sliding them under the GG. I have been trying to use the camera and learn, I have a couple questions and appreciate your responses:

1. Front standard firmness / secure locking:
a. When I use the front right and left (low) knobs to secure the focus point, the standard moves as I tighten the left knob and the image is out of focus. Is there a specific way to focus so as to avoid the extraneous movements and resulting lack of focus.
b. After focusing by adjusting the front standard, I secure it in its place. However, even a soft tap on the standard feels like the standard shakes a lot. How can I avoid it.

2. Overall camera stability:
a. After meticulously focusing on an image, are there any tricks to insert a 4x5 film holder under the ground glass without disturbing the camera from it's position.
b. Are there any tricks or methods to ensure the camera stays well focused, while and after inserting the 4x5 film holder.

Thanks,
Arun.

Doremus Scudder
28-Sep-2012, 02:12
Hello,
I am a LF newbie. I have been a forum lurker for a few months, and been reading up on LF for a while now.
I have a Shen Hao HZX 4x5 iia, a Caltar 150mm IIn 5.6, and a Manfrotto 055 XPROB with 486 RC (older version) head. I use 4x5 film holders by sliding them under the GG. I have been trying to use the camera and learn, I have a couple questions and appreciate your responses:

1. Front standard firmness / secure locking:
a. When I use the front right and left (low) knobs to secure the focus point, the standard moves as I tighten the left knob and the image is out of focus. Is there a specific way to focus so as to avoid the extraneous movements and resulting lack of focus.
b. After focusing by adjusting the front standard, I secure it in its place. However, even a soft tap on the standard feels like the standard shakes a lot. How can I avoid it.

2. Overall camera stability:
a. After meticulously focusing on an image, are there any tricks to insert a 4x5 film holder under the ground glass without disturbing the camera from it's position.
b. Are there any tricks or methods to ensure the camera stays well focused, while and after inserting the 4x5 film holder.

Thanks,
Arun.

Hello Arun and welcome to large-format photography.

I don't own a Shen Hao, but I have several other wooden folding field cameras. I'll tell you how I deal with the problems you mention with them.

As for locking focus, I simply don't. I have screwed the lock-focus know on my cameras back out against the lock nut and that's where they stay. I focus, and then don't touch anything. The focusing is tight enough to keep the standards in place without locking. If your Shen Hao really needs the lock screwed down tight, I would recommend holding the focus knob in place with your right hand while carefully tightening the locking know with your left. You may find, however, that like me you can do without locking focus except possibly for shots with the camera pointed straight up or down.

As for the standard moving when you tap it; all I can say is "Don't do that!" ;) Seriously, as long as your focus does not change from front-to-back, the standard will return to the same place and your focus will stay the same. Wood is flexible, but sturdy and will return to position after you deflect it. That said, there is often a little slop in older cameras that can cause some problems. This slop is usually in at the connecting points/focusing rail If your camera is used and there is a bit of unwanted space in any of these places, you can often use shims and washers to tighten things up. If you have basic woodworking and mechanical skills and are not put off by the small size of much of what you are working with, you can do it yourself. If you are uncomfortable with this, try finding someone who is to help. A machinist or cabinetmaker among your friends is always helpful :)

You may be being a little paranoid about moving things. As long as your negatives are sharp, I wouldn't worry. To give you some peace of mind, shoot a couple of negatives at fairly close objects with your lens wide open. Focus on something very distinctive, and leave the rest of the shot out of focus. Shoot and develop and see if your intended area is in focus or not.

As for the back deflecting when inserting a filmholder, see above about wood deflecting and returning to position. However, to minimize to stress try this: When inserting the filmholder, first pull the inserting end the back open with your hand (this results in the ground-glass portion of the back being at an angle to the rest of the back). Insert the filmholder partway into the opening. It's best if it goes in just a bit more than halfway. Now you can release the back and use your free hand to support the opposite side of the camera back while gently pushing the holder in place. Often, a little outward pressure (i.e., against the ground-glass side) helps.The springs on many camera backs are quite stiff, and the above technique seems to work best for me.

Best and good luck,

Doremus

Frank Petronio
28-Sep-2012, 05:18
I wish more people realized how flimsy these toy cameras are. Get a professional camera made from metal... They weigh more but are robust and reliable.

Brian Ellis
28-Sep-2012, 05:50
1(a) Do as Doremus suggests and hold the focusing knob in place while you lock with the other knob. I'm not sure about his other suggestion of not locking focus at all - you can't check focus after inserting the film holder so I don't know how he focuses and then doesn't touch anything but I'm probably missing something. In any event, it's easy enough just to hold the focusing knob in place. Also, I'm not sure what you're photographing but unless it's a situation where you have almost no depth of field (e.g. a close-up portrait in low light with a long lens and wide aperture where you want the eyes in perfect focus or the label on a bottle in product photography) the small movement of the kind you describe shouldn't matter, depth of field would normally make up for that kind of small movement. If the movement isn't small, and is really messing up your photographs, then I'd think there's something wrong with the camera.

1(b) Don't tap it.

2(a) and (b) (these seem to be the same question) - Slight movement when inserting the film holder shouldn't matter, normally the camera will return to its original position if its properly secured on the tripod. But if it bothers you just insert the holder a short way under the ground glass frame to get it started, then grasp something on the camera with one hand to hold it steady and push the holder the rest of the way in with your other hand.

I've used metal cameras (Linhof Technikas) and wood cameras (Ebony, Deardorff, Chamonix, Shen Hao, Tachihara, et al). Metal will generally give you a sense or feeling of more "precision" or "firmness" or whatever exactly the term is. But I never found any practical difference in terms of making "sharp" photographs between wood and metal. If Carlton Watkins could make sharp photographs with his 16x20 wood camera and holders you should be able to do it too with your 4x5. : - )

BrianShaw
28-Sep-2012, 06:31
I wish more people realized how flimsy these toy cameras are. Get a professional camera made from metal... They weigh more but are robust and reliable.

I've never touched a Shen Hao... but that was pretty much what I was thinking after reading the post.

BrianShaw
28-Sep-2012, 06:34
As for locking focus, I simply don't. I have screwed the lock-focus know on my cameras back out against the lock nut and that's where they stay. I focus, and then don't touch anything. The focusing is tight enough to keep the standards in place without locking. If your Shen Hao really needs the lock screwed down tight, I would recommend holding the focus knob in place with your right hand while carefully tightening the locking know with your left. You may find, however, that like me you can do without locking focus except possibly for shots with the camera pointed straight up or down.

I do the opposite on both my monorail and speed graphics: I lightly lock the focus every time. Not that it really needs it but it has become habitual and makes me feel better. The trick, if you want to call it that, is to LIGHTLY lock... and hold the focus knob while locing, as mentioned previously. Screwing any focus lock down tight has been problematic for me in the past.

E. von Hoegh
28-Sep-2012, 06:44
I wish more people realized how flimsy these toy cameras are. Get a professional camera made from metal... They weigh more but are robust and reliable.

Or, get a Deardorff.

Mark Barendt
28-Sep-2012, 06:48
I wish more people realized how flimsy these toy cameras are. Get a professional camera made from metal... They weigh more but are robust and reliable.

I have to agree.

I started with a monorail (simply by dumb good luck) and put off a folder because of the shakiness I saw others fight with, with wooden cameras.

Seeing others work folding metal cameras, Rittreck & Calumet, gave me hope.

Ended up with a Toyo 45A which is a true joy to use.

Corran
28-Sep-2012, 07:14
With all due respect, I don't think the OP asked "what camera should I get to replace my wobbly wooden one."

Does every thread related to a wooden or non-metal camera have to have a pile of posts denigrating the choice of gear? It's getting a little tired.

To the OP - if it's like other cameras I have used, hold the right knob while you tighten the left knob and you should be good. Regarding rigidity, I can only suggest double-checking all of your various tightening points as well as your tripod, head, and plate. I was having an issue with a camera rocking before and it was because the plate I was using for the tripod head was backwards, which I didn't think mattered, but it did and caused the whole camera to rock back and forth with only a little effort. Of course, this would've been a problem with a metal monorail just as well.

BrianShaw
28-Sep-2012, 07:16
With all due respect, I don't think the OP asked "what camera should I get to replace my wobbly wooden one."

Does every thread related to a wooden or non-metal camera have to have a pile of posts denigrating the choice of gear? It's getting a little tired.



Ya, I hear ya. I get the same kind of disrespect on the Mercedes forum when I ask why my C230 won't beat a M5 in a drag race. ;)

Corran
28-Sep-2012, 07:29
Well if you want to make an analogy, I'm guessing both those cars will nicely drive down any major highway with little trouble. In the same way, any decent photographer can use a 3-pound wooden camera or a 15-pound monstrosity to take a nice, sharp photo. Yeah, the monorail will have more movements and be more rigid in some circumstances. So what.

Disclaimer: I have lugged a Toyo GII monorail with 4 lenses all day long through a city to get photos. It was after that day that I decided to buy a wooden folding 4x5 camera.

E. von Hoegh
28-Sep-2012, 07:29
Well, it is true that a metal monorail is more rigid and possibly a better camera to learn on. It's also true that the Shen Hao is capable of making sharp photos, whether or not it is as rigid as, say, a Linhof Technika. The OP has the camera he has.

Basically, just focus, lock down the adjustements, recheck focus, carefully insert the filmholder, remove the darkslide and make the exposure. Treat the camera gently, don't overtighten the locks, don't force anything, and it will work.

E. von Hoegh
28-Sep-2012, 07:30
Ya, I hear ya. I get the same kind of disrespect on the Mercedes forum when I ask why my C230 won't beat a M5 in a drag race. ;)

Bah. I had a 69 Plymouth that would have beat both of them.

BrianShaw
28-Sep-2012, 07:41
So what.

No disagreement there, except that in most things it is easier to learn the basics using equipment that is "less fiddly". I think that is where many of hte "you ought to consider a different camera" comment are coming from.

p.s. I think I get fewer speeding tickets in my C230 than the guys driving M5's... so I might actually get down the highway with less trouble. :)

Corran
28-Sep-2012, 08:00
That's true, and I did cut my teeth on that Toyo GII.

Joseph Dickerson
28-Sep-2012, 08:30
Aruns,

I have owned and used the Shen Hao and other wood cameras and any images I made that weren't sharp we due to technique, not the equipment.

No one has yet suggested that you do as I was taught. That is: when you open the back to insert the film holder place your fingers on the upper rear surface of the camera and pull the ground glass open with your thumb. This way you're not pulling on the camera but just separating the GG from the camera back. When you've opened it just far enough to insert the film holder, move the left hand to brace the left side of the back while the right hand finishes inserting the back. With practice you can do this and avoid any unwanted movement.

I also might suggest a large format class, I'm sure that you can find one in the Bay Area, maybe a work shop with Mark Citret is he is still teaching. Another good learning tool is Finely Focused[I] by Bruce Barlow (available as a download) or the book [I]Using the View Camera by Steve Simmons.

Don't worry, your Shen Hao is an excellent camera, and will give you years of service. It's all a matter of figuring things out. We all had to go through the same process. Some like field cameras, some like monorails, not a small number use both. Some like Fords, some like Chevys. Same deal! :rolleyes:

JD

Frank Petronio
28-Sep-2012, 09:16
I started with a wooden Wista/Zone VI with the Brass knobs that lost their lock nuts and had lots of backlash.

Twenty years later I went back and bought a 5x7 Tachihara ultralight, to check if my prejudices were unfounded. They weren't. The front standard would droop and settle even while being "locked". Then I tried a Chamonix and couldn't figure it out, it was like a Gyro Gearloose contraption, not a camera.

To each their own but a $200 monorail is way easier and more solid. A good tripod is important too. Simple basics.... I don't wonder why people bail on large format after playing with some of the odd cameras out there.

Michael Cienfuegos
28-Sep-2012, 09:41
No disagreement there, except that in most things it is easier to learn the basics using equipment that is "less fiddly". I think that is where many of hte "you ought to consider a different camera" comment are coming from.

p.s. I think I get fewer speeding tickets in my C230 than the guys driving M5's... so I might actually get down the highway with less trouble. :)

I think Frank is trying to tug someone's tibia. :o I have the same problems with my Kodak 2D. I think it is mostly operator error. :confused:

I managed to get a speeding ticket while driving my TDI Jetta. :(

m

E. von Hoegh
28-Sep-2012, 09:44
I started with a wooden Wista/Zone VI with the Brass knobs that lost their lock nuts and had lots of backlash.

Twenty years later I went back and bought a 5x7 Tachihara ultralight, to check if my prejudices were unfounded. They weren't. The front standard would droop and settle even while being "locked". Then I tried a Chamonix and couldn't figure it out, it was like a Gyro Gearloose contraption, not a camera.

To each their own but a $200 monorail is way easier and more solid. A good tripod is important too. Simple basics.... I don't wonder why people bail on large format after playing with some of the odd cameras out there.

You make a good point, that a simple tool is best to learn on. I used a Nagaoka 4x5 on a trip once, it was borrowed and I never had used it until I was there - Mainz - and wanted a picture of the cathedral. If I hadn't already had a good deal of experience, I'd have given up right there.

Cletus
28-Sep-2012, 18:23
I think wood fields and metal monos - and technical "field" cameras - are just different cameras with their own sets of trade offs. I had the same Shen Hao as the OP and made nice photos with it. I was quite happy with it actually. It was effectively my first LF camera, so wasn't able to appreciate how much easier a good monorail can be to use. At the cost of weight and bulk.

Both cameras can make fine images if used properly and in some cases (backpacking, hiking) only one will really fit the bill. You use what you have and learn with what you have. After you have a little experience, try a different type camera and see what you like. Pretty tough when you didn't have something to compare with.

Practice with the Shen Hao for awhile. You'll get used to it and you can be fairly confident the camera will do what it's supposed to, effectively, once you get the hang of it's idiosyncrasies.

aruns
30-Sep-2012, 00:11
Hello,
I am pleasantly surprised with the quality and quantity of responses, Thank you very much for taking the time to share your expertise.

Hi Doremus / Brian Shaw
Thank you very much for the detailed response. I was indeed trying to lock it real tight (as I torque my tripod head) but i will try your and Brian's suggestion to get it in focus, lock the standard lightly instead of forcing it much.
And reg. checking whether the standards are locked tight - i will stop tapping it :)
And thanks for the tips on film holder loading too. I kinda did what you suggested with lifting the back and inserting the holder, but I will try the 'firm opposing pressure on the left side of camera to negate unintended movements' technique as well.

Hi Brian Ellis,
Thank you for the detailed response as well.
I was shooting portraits and still life in shade (ex., flowers in a vase) using a 150mm, so I was physically a few feet away from the subject. The DOF was quite thin while focusing (f/5.6). I shot at f/22 or f/32 but still waiting for results. But thanks for the tip / reminder on using DOF effectively.
And you are right, 2a and 2b are sort of the same, and I will try the approach you/Doremus suggested.

Corran,
Thanks for your tip. I was trying to hold the right knob (at the point where the image is focused as intended) and tighten the left knob, but I felt a little play in the left, so I tightened it more - but this ended up moving the right knob, and thus moving out of focus. That's why I asked that question 1.
I am going to try the 'lock lightly' trick and see how it works out for me.
Reg. the other thing (tapping the front standard) - I once accidentally knocked the front standard once and noticed how shaky it was, and thus posted my concern in my question. In future, I will double check the various tightening points.

Joseph,
The film holder insertion tip sounds like a great idea and I am looking forward to trying this. Thanks for sharing it.
Also, thanks for the suggestions on learning. I am learning from Steve Simmons book but will look up the other resources you suggested as well. I checked up Mark's website, his last workshop was apparently conducted a couple years back. I will reach out and see if he still does workshops.

E. von Hoegh,
Nice summary in the 2nd paragraph, thanks. I'll keep it in my photo bag until it becomes 2nd nature.

Cletus,
Thanks for sharing your inputs.
I got the Shen Hao after lurking here for a while, reading up on tools, techniques, etc. I also researched the SH cameras before getting one.
Now that I have a working setup with the SH and 150/5.6, I would like to get very familiar with it and gain confidence before thinking of the next lens or camera purchase.

Frank, BrianShaw, E. von Hoegh, Mark,
I will keep your inputs in mind for when it is time to upgrade.

Best regards,
Arun

Vaughn
30-Sep-2012, 01:15
We bought one of these for student use. We also have a couple Horseman Woodman 4x5's -- and several Calumet rail 4x5's.

I have not really used the HZX IIa, but have set it up many times for the students...and it seems to be of very good quality. If my own 4x5 (with lens attached) was not under half the weight of a bare HZX IIa, I would think about using it. The Horseman Woodman 4x5's are quite a bit lighter than the HZX, but relatively solid for its weight.

After closing the shutter and pulling the darkslide, I always hold the cable release steady, give the camera a chance to settle down, then make my exposure. It just becomes habit with all the cameras I have used -- mostly wood field cameras -- a relatively modern Zone VI 8x10 to the century-old Kodak 5x7 and 11x14. And a 2D that gets some use occasionally.

If there is a little breeze blowing, but often even if not, I like to tuck the darkcloth up around the camera.

I used my Gowland 4x5 on an old Gitzo Reporter with a Bogan 3D head on a recent backpack trip. The tripod over-powered the camera...the Gowland is a lightweight rail camera (about 2.25 pounds with the 150mm lens). I use to use it with the next size up Gitzo (Studex) and a Gitzo Ballhead #2 (backpacking, bicycle touring, local redwoods, and deserts) with no worries about vibrations. I use a large Ries wooden tripod for the 8x10 and the 11x14. At least with a good tripod, one is dealing only with the weak points of the camera...and not those weaknesses magnified by the tripod.

Before loading the film holder, I do try to remember to double-check all the knobs on camera and tripod...because this is when you find out if they aren't. When loading and I am pushing the holder into the back with one hand, I try to push with equal force with my other hand on the other side of the film back. And I usually do a visual check to make sure the holder is well seated. The Gowland has a bail handle which allows for loading the film holder with very little force being applied that would move the camera.

If I were to buy another camera or two for our program, I would consider the Shen-Hao XPO. It is the unfolding and then trying to refold the cameras by our students when most damage can happen (aside from dropping them).

Graham Patterson
30-Sep-2012, 15:02
Having a system (that works!) and sticking to it seems to be the answer to most LF issues. My wood Wista has rear shift and swing. It is easy to forget to lock them down tight before inserting the film holder, with the inevitable consequences. It is especially bad after using the MPP VII which has locked rear movements for travel and folding. The Wista folds with everything unlocked.