Super Angulon 165mm in COPAL vs. SYNCHRO-COMPUR

[Pasto]

Does anyone know the difference between these two? The SA 165mm in a SYNCHRO-COMPUR seems physically different from the one in a copal 3? I'm talking about the single coated version. The one in a SYNCHRO-COMPUR typically has the shiny aluminum look whereas the one in copal is black. I ask because I'm wondering if the SA in SYNCHRO-COMPUR could be easily transfered to a more modern copal shutter?

Thanks,
Luigi

[John Schneider]

http://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/super-angulon/data/8-165mm.html

[carverlux]

Does anyone know the difference between these two? The SA 165mm in a SYNCHRO-COMPUR seems physically different from the one in a copal 3? I'm talking about the single coated version. The one in a SYNCHRO-COMPUR typically has the shiny aluminum look whereas the one in copal is black. I ask because I'm wondering if the SA in SYNCHRO-COMPUR could be easily transfered to a more modern copal shutter?

Thanks,
Luigi

Luigi,

The short answer:

Depends on what you call "easily transferred".

The long answer:

Since this question has been asked by a few on this an other forums, it deserves a long - and hopefully clear - answer.

The earlier SA165 in Synchro Compur has been known to baffle many who wanted to remove the front lens cell to CLA or replace a suboptimal Synchro-Compur many of which by now are 50+ years old. They hailed from an era when "clever" circuitous methods were devised to conceal fastening points to provide a "seamless" look for the whole lens. Did they succeed? Pretty much. Is it "better looking", well....

To make this possible, the chromed front lens cell bodies of the earlier SA165 were made with hidden attachment points that fastened the scalloped speed setting ring. To get at these points, the front glass element must first be removed. This is not for the faint of heart but unfortunately, there is no other way.

Here is how to "liberate" the SA165 front cell from its evil Synchro-Compur:

1. unscrewing the front engraved ring bearing the name and serial number
2. removing the front element from the front lens cell body
3. unfasten the fasteners inside the front lens cell body which hold the front cell body to the speed setting ring
4. unscrew the front cell body from the front shutter thread
5. remove the speed setting ring from the shutter by unscrewing its very long thread (many many turns) to remove the retaining ring
6. undo the set screws and remove the shutter speed scale from the front cell body
7. plug the holes in the front cell body left behind by 2 missing attachment fasteners
8. replace the front element into the front cell body and realign the element along the optical axis
9. replace and fasten the front engraved ring securely ensuring the front element and held properly and aligned

If you did all this, you have a front cell that will fit into a Copal 1. I would say the trickiest part is the re-centering of the front element during reassembly. Even with an aperture of f/8, it requires alignment precision on the order of ±10 microns or so, and in addition, the front cell-rear cell spacing must be re-established on an optical bench to avoid (at a minimum) curvature of field issues. The rear cell is straightforward.

Net

This is not something I would attempt without the proper facilities and training.

But YMMV. Hope this is helpful. Good luck,
carver

[Pasto]

Thank you carver. This is certainly something only a professional should attempt. I'm just wondering what this says about servicing the shutter. A simple adjustment may require that the whole front element be dissasembled as you suggest??

[carverlux]

Thank you carver. This is certainly something only a professional should attempt. I'm just wondering what this says about servicing the shutter. A simple adjustment may require that the whole front element be dissasembled as you suggest??

If you need access to the shutter, I don't see how there is any other way to do it without the disassembly as described. Take a close look at your lens and perhaps it is different but I doubt it. Sorry I am not the bearer of good - or at least simple - news.

carver

[BrianShaw]

I can 't speak from experience with this particular lens, but it shocks me that the front (and rear) lens components don't just spin off of the shutter. I've never personally met a large format lens/shutter that required removing the indivudal lens/cells to gain access to the shutter. That would be a very odd design decision.

[carverlux]

Brian,

Many 1960's German large format lenses had "integrated" Synchro-Compur shutters that are not just spin-on and spin-off. In fact, I am sure that was a selling point to justify the much higher selling prices of German lenses versus their lower-cost Japanese counterparts, which to my knowledge, never did this.

You can see many examples of this integration in large format lenses from Carl Zeiss, and you can see this in the attached pages from their 1966 lens catalog for Linhof cameras. Both Biogon and Sonnar of various focal lengths had this fancy integration "treatment". Schneider followed the same path on the early version of the SA165 that the OP was inquiring about.

Hope this helps.
carver



I can 't speak from experience with this particular lens, but it shocks me that the front (and rear) lens components don't just spin off of the shutter. I've never personally met a large format lens/shutter that required removing the indivudal lens/cells to gain access to the shutter. That would be a very odd design decision.

[BrianShaw]

Well thanks for the education. I know that the lens cells must be removed for shutter repair in Hassleblad but never saw such lenses for LF. Thanks again... very interesting!

[Michael Jones]

I had this very lens; trying to spin the barrel out of the shutter housing will chip the rear edges of the front element group. The locking ring requires a special tool to remove. Schneider Optics' service department can easily disassemble and service this lens at a competitive price. Don't risk the damage.

Mike

[Pasto]

Thanks Mike.