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View Full Version : Unevenness with 4x5 in Jobo 2553



Roger Cole
20-Sep-2012, 19:14
I've used my Jobo CPE2 with the 2509n reels and 2521 tank for years, since shortly after I got into large format and decided that deep tanks just used too darned much solution and made temperature control too hard. I've always had great results from this combination.

Since getting back into photography I bought some more reels and the 2553 tank so I could run 12 sheets at a time, but hadn't done so until this past weekend.

Disaster. First, all the sheets on the bottom reel were ruined, but at least I know generally why. I was shocked when I took them out of the tank because they hadn't even cleared for the middle half or so of the sheets, in spite of 5 minutes in Rapid Fixer. Ok, not enough solution. They developed only some light streaks to the sides. I carefully leveled the processor the best I could - my spirit level bubble may have been touching the line on one side or the other but definitely between the lines, as level as I've ever been able to manage or needed, and the tank calls for 560ml of solution. I used 600 as a convenient number that also fit in the "500ml" bottles when nearly topped off. So that wasn't enough - I need more, and maybe better leveling; I get that. It recommends 640 ml for roll film reels. I'll do some more experimenting but probably if I got to 700ml or so that should be fine on that score. I mention this in case anyone has any experience or input with this particular problem.

The worse problem, because I don't know why it happened or how to fix it, was with the sheets in the top reel, which did process, seemingly normally. But when I looked at the dry film on a light box severe edge streaking is evident. One of them has an odd rectangular pattern of unevenness. Now someone may say to get Expert drums and, if I want to keep the temperature control and automatic rotation, a larger processor, and the thought has occurred to me. But I've processed maybe a couple of hundred or so sheets in a single reel in the 2521 and never seen this problem!

Two things occur to me. One, that maybe since I need more solution for the lower reel, which is on the far end from the lift, I barely had enough solution to cover these and that lead to this. The other has to do with rotation speed. When I got the processor, which is an older one with two speeds, I used the slow speed for film just as recommended. For years I didn't have problems with this. Then I read that Jobo later found some unevenness with this and recommended the fast speed for both film and paper and in fact eliminated the slow speed from later models. I did find some (far more minor than this) unevenness in sky areas on a very few shots on 120 roll film which lead me to adapt that fast speed in the past year or so. Never any problem with roll film. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure I've run any sheet film since I made the change, though. So all those 4x5 negatives I have from past years that were developed in the Jobo and look just fine, as far as processing goes at any rate, were done at the slow rotation speed. For this run this past weekend I used the fast speed.

The only things different are the two reels in the 2553 versus one in the 2521 and the faster rotation speed.

Here are some examples. See the edge unevenness in the lake scenes and the weird rectangular pattern plus the edge unevenness in the lighthouse. The lighthouse also has some dust ruining it, and I know I ran the lens out of coverage. I'm asking about problems I don't understand or know how to fix myself. ;) This was all the TMY-2 I have exposed right now, but I have a run of Fomapan 400 to process and I'm reluctant to do it until I figure this out. (Though I only have four or five sheets, not sure, so I can run it in the 2521.)

If I have to just limit myself to six sheet runs, that's workable. I have several 2521 tanks and 2509n reels so at least I can run another batch without drying the previous. But I'd rather get the 2553 working. If I can get some ideas beyond using more solution (or some suggestion that this will fix both problems) I'll fire off some test shots and run a test batch and see how it does.

These are just quick scans on my Epson 3200, with no real attempt to get them straight and pretty much less final, just to show the problems.

Any help or insight appreciated.

808378083680835

rdenney
20-Sep-2012, 21:48
600 ml, even if it covered the film, might not be sufficient to develop all the film before it is exhausted. Kodak suggests that Xtol, for example, can develop 80 square inches of film per liter of solution. You processed 12 sheets, which 240 square inches of film, with half a liter. I'll bet you exhausted your developer.

My Jobo 2551 tank suggests 8 sheets of 4x5 using two 2509 reels. But 8 sheets is 160 square inches, and requires two liters of Xtol working solution. My temptation with that developer (of course, I don't know what developer you were using) would be to fill the tank with a full liter and then develop two sheets per reel.

Pyrocat-HD, which is what I am experimenting with, needs 75ml of 1:1:100 working solution per 4x5 sheet. That means 12 sheets would need 900 ml, minimum. I will use a full liter. If that's what you were using, you still had too much film for the 600ml of developer you used.

With your single-reel, you probably filled it to the brim for upright development, which would provide a much greater amount of solution per sheet.

Rick "who has collected the same basic stuff but not yet used it, though he has films ready to develop" Denney

Roger Cole
20-Sep-2012, 22:17
Well, not exactly. I used two reels but I only had ten sheets total. And due to a screw up on my record keeping (I'm feeling like I'm re-creating all the beginner mistakes again ten years later) two of them were actually unexposed.

And I don't fill the single one to the brim. I use what it says on the side of the tank rounded up. Always done via rotation on the machine. I've never exhausted developer before, and I doubt I did now as the ones on the other real are fully if unevenly developed. :(

Developer was T-Max RS diluted 1+5.

But thanks very much for the input. It's a good thought, I just don't think it's likely given the 10 sheets, only 8 of which were exposed (and the middle of three didn't get wet anyway) and 100ml of concentrate.

Roger Cole
20-Sep-2012, 22:21
I should say in my defense that the dark slides on the unexposed ones were turned to white - unexposed. But my notepad listed them as exposed by holder number, so I ran them rather than risk double exposure figuring losing the sheets was better than ruining two shots on each.

Roger Cole
21-Sep-2012, 03:43
Update - I had to retrieve my 2521 tank from the darkroom to recall exactly how much solution I use with a single reel and six sheets - it calls for 270 ml so I round up to 300. This works nicely for my 1+5 dilution of T-Max RS, 50ml concentrate plus 250ml water. So I have often developed six sheets in half the solution I used for only 10, two of which weren't exposed and three of which didn't get solution on them. So that's not it.

koh303
21-Sep-2012, 04:42
What Rick says is basically true - the capacity filling amounts on the Jobo tank labels refer to color chemistry, where a much smaller amount per square meter is needed (what the hell is an inch anyways?), and as most of the chemicals are replenisher based, they do not get exhausted so fast.
For 12 sheets in the 2553, you need at least 640ml, just to cover all of them with solution, that does not say how much a BW sheet of film will need when taking in to account the effective chemical capacity per square meter or per sheet.
Jobo actually says (and experience also suggests) that when doing sheet film your CPE2 which has 2 speeds, should be set to the lower speed. The CPE2+ has only one setting which is somewhere in the middle between the two speeds of the CPE2.
The high rotation speed does not allow enough time for solutions to pool or move fast enough to reach each sheet, so the combination of the high speed and small amount of chemistry, i suspect is your problem, As i routinely process 12 sheets of 4X5 using 2553 tanks, with no issues (BW and color).

One thing of note - the max capacity of the rotation motor of the CPE2 is stated by Jobo to be 600ml. Though the motor will spin a tank with 2 liters or more, the strain of anything beyond the recommended max capacity will eventually slow and kill the motor or other relays or components on the board.
So - even though in theory 640ml is fine for c-41\e-6 it might not be enough for whatever BW process you are running, and you might not want to run such a large load on a CPE2.

Even though you ran the same process with the multitank 2 with 300ml, with good results the larger size of the multitank 5 coupled with the higher speed and less then needed chemistry will require to adjust the capacities.

One other thing, Tmax RS, which is a high capacity commercial machine use developer (and replenisher) is less then ideal for Jobo processing, though it works fine in most cases.

In any case i think a good guideline for sheet film will be to start with a minimum of 75\80ml per sheet, with 100ml being a safe margin. Running 8 sheets per tank thus will call for less then 800ml, which is after all not to far from the recommended max capacity of the motor.

Even of the processors itself is 100% leveled, if you are working with a lift (which by the way adds some more strain to the motor, due to the transfer gears friction), the lift arm or lift base might not be 100% when in the lower position. This might also change during a run, as you lift and lower it, and it flexes out of level, not much you can do about that in the CPE2 which flexes alot, other then use a bit more chemistry to compensate, and make sure all film is getting exposed to chemistry.

Roger Cole
21-Sep-2012, 04:51
I am in fact not sure if I have used the faster speed for sheet film before. I only started using it for roll film earlier this year when I saw a few frames or 120 FP4+ with unevenness in the skies. It was slight and might not be noticed by anyone not looking for it, but going to the faster speed seemed to fix it without causing any other issues. I'm not sure if I've run 4x5 since then. No problem to go back to the slow speed. I suspected that anyway.

I'm still not really buying the developer exhaustion considering half as much developer has never given me a problem developing 60% as much film, even counting what wasn't exposed or immersed in chemistry. I've used T-Max RS since the 90s when a friend recommended it for T-grain films. I tried Xtol but didn't like it as much - no huge reason just the powder mix, inconvenient 5L stock size and the fact when it goes bad it doesn't change color. I use D76 for some films (like the Foma.)

I think I'm safe to run my Fomapan now using the 2521 multitank and the 300ml I have been using, on the slow speed. I might up the quantity of solution slightly.

It's rare that I need to run more than six sheets at once but I will try to shoot 12 sheets of Foma (because it's cheap - Arista branded) test exposures and run them all with 700-800ml on slow speed. I'll bet that does it. It won't be a complete test since the film and developer type is different, but it should show any problems with evenness. Thanks for the info on the rotation speeds (I am also using a lift.)

koh303
21-Sep-2012, 05:28
Good luck - please share the results when you have then so we can see if this issue was resolved.

Kevin J. Kolosky
21-Sep-2012, 17:05
"I'm still not really buying the developer exhaustion"

I would tend to agree. If it was developer exhaustion the streaks would more than likely be all over rather than concentrated in certain areas but it appears that you have good development in all of the areas.

So it has to be either uneven development due to chemical flow(surge of some type) or possibly, but remotely, some type of light leak.
Just to rule that out, I would try some film from a different box of film, and then a completely different film holder to rule that remote possibility out. If that doesn't do it I would start with 1 sheet of film with a full drum to see if the film itself is causing some sort of weird chemical flow.

In other words, only change 1 thing at a time. Eventually you will get it.

Sal Santamaura
21-Sep-2012, 21:37
...Kodak suggests that Xtol, for example, can develop 80 square inches of film per liter of solution...Wrong by an order of magnitude. Kodak data indicate that 100 ml of XTOL stock solution is the minimum necessary to process 80 square inches of film. See the fifth paragraph of the second column on page two here:


http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j109/j109.pdf


...It's a good thought, I just don't think it's likely given the 10 sheets, only 8 of which were exposed (and the middle of three didn't get wet anyway) and 100ml of concentrate.Per the first paragraph of the second column on page two here


http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j86/j86.pdf

45 ml of TMAX-RS solution is required for each 80 square inches of film. The 100 ml you used is pretty close to the 112.5 ml that ratio would specify for 200 square inches, so I agree that exhaustion had nothing to do with your bad results. Insufficient coverage as well as reel / rotation speed interactions are likely to blame.

Yes, I'm one of those who will suggest moving to Expert drums. Absolutely uniform negatives every time. :)

Roger Cole
21-Sep-2012, 22:54
Well I wouldn't mind the Expert drums, but right now I'm not going to spend that much money on the drums plus the processor I'd want to use them with, especially when I want to get a better camera, a v700 or 750, and a few other items soon. I probably would find and buy a CPA or CPP if my CPE2 died, but right now it's adequate, and I've never had a problem with unevenness on 4x5 before (or really even with roll film until very recently - FP4+ seems a bit more sensitive for some reason.)

Greg Davis
22-Sep-2012, 06:54
I know you want to make photographs and not do tests, but it sounds like you changed a few variables between the period where you had no problems to now. Maybe shoot some test negatives of the open sky or a plain wall and go back to your original processing method, then change your variables one at a time, running some negatives at each change, and see which one causes the unevenness. Personally, I think it is the speed, but I could be wrong. I use Xtol 1:1 with TMY-2 in a Jobo Multitank 2 for one reel, and a Multitank 5 for two reels on a roller base (no processor) without problems. I use a speed that is slower than my CPA-2 machine when running C-41 at 75 rpm.

Cor
22-Sep-2012, 08:42
Roger,

Do have those newer reels type 2509n which are provided with these black thnigies/baffles/dividers or how they are exactly called, the things you snap on the reel after loading..you did not forget these perhaps?

Just a thought..

Good luck with the search,

Best,

Cor

bob carnie
22-Sep-2012, 08:55
I will add my 2 cents

We have been using Jobo for over 15 years.. What I see is uneven development, lots of grey skys.

To solve this problem , here is a trick..that has solved our issues in grey backgrounds or large areas of neutral density.


Pour your chemicals in as usual ,, Immediately invert and twist the tank as if you were processing small tank reels . You need to make sure no chems escape so practice first on a water only run. Make sure you bang the bottom to dispel any air bubbles.

Do this for the first 15 SECONDS OF DEVELOPMENT. THEN PUT THE DRUM ON THE MACHINE AND START THE PROCESS.. not yelling at you Roger just making sure that
you do this very fast and do not wait one second.

you would minus the first 15 seconds from the countdown time on your Jobo.

FWIW we always use a full tank so there is no question of coverage and we always use one shot.

Ari
22-Sep-2012, 09:17
I have the same 12-sheet tank, and I judiciously use two water pre-soaks, for BW and C-41.
Each pre-soak is 45s long.
It took care of the uneven development I was getting

Roger Cole
22-Sep-2012, 09:20
I know you want to make photographs and not do tests, but it sounds like you changed a few variables between the period where you had no problems to now. Maybe shoot some test negatives of the open sky or a plain wall and go back to your original processing method, then change your variables one at a time, running some negatives at each change, and see which one causes the unevenness. Personally, I think it is the speed, but I could be wrong. I use Xtol 1:1 with TMY-2 in a Jobo Multitank 2 for one reel, and a Multitank 5 for two reels on a roller base (no processor) without problems. I use a speed that is slower than my CPA-2 machine when running C-41 at 75 rpm.

Well yes, but I didn't really mean to, or think of it that way at the time. I changed to the faster rotation speed some time earlier this year and got in the habit of using it. It was only after the fact I started wondering, "wait a minute, I haven't run any 4x5 in a while....have I used the faster speed with sheet film or just with roll film?" I'm still not 100% sure. The only other variable was the large two reel tank, which I didn't think of as a variable. It should be obvious that the longer tank will exaggerate any deviation from level, but again that didn't really occur to me - I leveled the processor as usual and I also used slightly more solution than called for. Obviously though, it wasn't enough for the bottom reel, which was on the far end of the processor from the lift.


Roger,

Do have those newer reels type 2509n which are provided with these black thnigies/baffles/dividers or how they are exactly called, the things you snap on the reel after loading..you did not forget these perhaps?

Just a thought..

Good luck with the search,

Best,

Cor

Yep, I'm using the newer reels with the plastic bat wing / paddle thingies, and I did not forget them.


I will add my 2 cents

We have been using Jobo for over 15 years.. What I see is uneven development, lots of grey skys.

To solve this problem , here is a trick..that has solved our issues in grey backgrounds or large areas of neutral density.


Pour your chemicals in as usual ,, Immediately invert and twist the tank as if you were processing small tank reels . You need to make sure no chems escape so practice first on a water only run. Make sure you bang the bottom to dispel any air bubbles.

Do this for the first 15 SECONDS OF DEVELOPMENT. THEN PUT THE DRUM ON THE MACHINE AND START THE PROCESS.. not yelling at you Roger just making sure that
you do this very fast and do not wait one second.

you would minus the first 15 seconds from the countdown time on your Jobo.

FWIW we always use a full tank so there is no question of coverage and we always use one shot.

I appreciate the suggestion but I can't do that Bob. I'm using a lift so the tank is actually open on top. You'd have to hold your hand over it or something to invert - you could do that but when you tried to put it on the machine the solution would run out. Nor would I feel comfortable using a full tank on the little CPE2, as anything over 600ml is already more than Jobo recommends for the motor in it.

I am going to run some tests with the 2553, but I'm pressed for time, busy this weekend, traveling next, and really unable to take time during the week. After that though I have a four day weekend and should be able to get to it. My wife teaches at a Jewish private school and they get lots of holidays this time of year, so I took my own vacation days to coincide with hers. She's also going to be away at a writer's conference that last long weekend giving me some extra time at home to focus on my art while she focuses on hers. I'll do some testing then.

bob carnie
22-Sep-2012, 09:35
Ok
I think the big problem you are seeing is not enough agitation.. how about putting a rocker on the house so it moves while the chems come in?
Well yes, but I didn't really mean to, or think of it that way at the time. I changed to the faster rotation speed some time earlier this year and got in the habit of using it. It was only after the fact I started wondering, "wait a minute, I haven't run any 4x5 in a while....have I used the faster speed with sheet film or just with roll film?" I'm still not 100% sure. The only other variable was the large two reel tank, which I didn't think of as a variable. It should be obvious that the longer tank will exaggerate any deviation from level, but again that didn't really occur to me - I leveled the processor as usual and I also used slightly more solution than called for. Obviously though, it wasn't enough for the bottom reel, which was on the far end of the processor from the lift.



Yep, I'm using the newer reels with the plastic bat wing / paddle thingies, and I did not forget them.



I appreciate the suggestion but I can't do that Bob. I'm using a lift so the tank is actually open on top. You'd have to hold your hand over it or something to invert - you could do that but when you tried to put it on the machine the solution would run out. Nor would I feel comfortable using a full tank on the little CPE2, as anything over 600ml is already more than Jobo recommends for the motor in it.

I am going to run some tests with the 2553, but I'm pressed for time, busy this weekend, traveling next, and really unable to take time during the week. After that though I have a four day weekend and should be able to get to it. My wife teaches at a Jewish private school and they get lots of holidays this time of year, so I took my own vacation days to coincide with hers. She's also going to be away at a writer's conference that last long weekend giving me some extra time at home to focus on my art while she focuses on hers. I'll do some testing then.

tgtaylor
22-Sep-2012, 10:04
I've been developing B&W and (mostly) color C-41 using the 2521 tank and 2509N reels (6 sheets at a time) for years without any problems at all. The only time that I did have a problem was trying to load the 2509N reel with 4x5 Rollie infrared. The film is too thin which makes it extremely difficult to load in that reel so I now use the 3010 drum to develop infrared and always when I have greater than 6 sheets to develop.

Thomas

Gary Samson
23-Sep-2012, 01:58
Roger,
When you first pour the developer into the lift set the motor speed to the highest rpm setting. After the first 30 seconds of development reduce the rotation speed to the slowest setting. I have the CPP2 processor and this method works perfectly for me.

Graham Patterson
24-Sep-2012, 13:23
On CPE2+/CPE2 with lift, it definitely pays to level the tank, not the processor. The bigger tank should be easier in that respect. I tend to limit myself to 4 sheets per 2509n reel because of developer capacity. Though now I am using a two-bath developer that is less of an issue as long as I have enough volume of stock.

Roger Cole
24-Sep-2012, 17:29
On CPE2+/CPE2 with lift, it definitely pays to level the tank, not the processor. The bigger tank should be easier in that respect. I tend to limit myself to 4 sheets per 2509n reel because of developer capacity. Though now I am using a two-bath developer that is less of an issue as long as I have enough volume of stock.

Yeah, leveling the tank rather than the processor is another of those "well that's perfectly obvious in hindsight" aka "duh!" thoughts. ;)

Graham Patterson
25-Sep-2012, 14:54
The Lift actually makes this worse. I have two (a CPE2+ and a plain CPE, both with Lifts now) and the lift bar ends do not quite clear the molded rim on the right side of the base. This means the base of the tank often sits a little high. The taper on the shorter tank tends to compensate, so the best way to use a spirit level is to put a block on the Lift rails before mounting the tank.

You have to think about it a bit: too little chemicals or too much slope, and development is uneven. Too much solution and the motor strains. Too much film and the developer may become exhausted at your chosen dilution and maximum volume.

I move my Jobo around a bit because of the small space i have, so I have been caught this way myself.

Roger Cole
13-Oct-2012, 14:48
Well I developed the Foma (actually Arista EDU Ultra rebranded Foma) last weekend. I only had four sheets, which I developed on a six sheet 2509n reel. I loaded the two outer slots and two inner slots, leaving the middle ones un-loaded, which I recall reading was the recommended practice with the older non-n reels without the paddles. I used the paddles, though. I carefully leveled the 2521 tank, not the processor itself (even for this short tank, there was a considerable difference between the two.) This tank calls for 270ml with 4x5. In the past I've used 300. This time I wanted to be sure insufficient solution wasn't even a possible thought so I used 400ml total. This time, as I do with Foma, I used D76 1+1.

I also used the slow rotation speed on my CPE2.

At first look the un-evenness on the second lighthouse shot was awful but the other three were ok, which was really odd. But on scanning I can see obvious un-evenness in the edge of this lake shot too (haven't scanned the others yet.)

This is both extremely frustrating and perplexing because I developed a lot of sheets with this same setup in the late 90s without a problem. Nothing has really changed. Thoughts?

(And yes of course I know I both ran the lens out of coverage AND cropped off the top of the lighthouse. In my defense, I shot these on my honey moon so photography was sort of an afterthought. :) )

koh303
13-Oct-2012, 21:21
light leak or bad film.

Roger Cole
13-Oct-2012, 21:28
light leak or bad film.

The light leak idea occurred to me in regard to the Lighthouse. I need to check my notes about which lens I used - it could have been the 203 Ektar which would mean I had the bellows much more fully extended, making any pinholes in the corners much more problematic, but it would take a hell of a lot of rise to have run that lens out of coverage on 4x5. I don't even think the camera will do it. Could have been my 135 Xenar, which barely covers 4x5 anyway, and would still have been extended more than the lake shot, which is with my 90mm Angulon. That's possible. I'll check the bellows.

BUT, note the top edge in the sky of the lake shot, which has a DARK streak - definitely not a light leak. Here's another from the same batch, but a vertical showing some dark streaks near each edge. Besides the fact their dark, they are consistently along the long edge of the film, in both horizontal (lake) and vertical (light fixture) - which to me looks more like processing than anything in camera.

I have negatives I've done this year with this set up too. I didn't note unevenness but the lake and light fixture shots are not nearly as obvious just at a brief look on the light box. I'll try to scan those soon too.

I HOPE it's just a light leak on the lighthouse. Some more tape on the corners will fix that for now, as will the planned (planned-if-I-can-get-consistent-dust-free-evenly-developed-sheets-going-again-dammit!) replacement camera.

koh303
14-Oct-2012, 05:12
instead of over analyzing this you can do a simple test and check your film.

They all look like light leaks or bad film. I would just try film form a real film manufacturer, not a company that makes films for lomo, and markets to students.

Any further analasys is pointless until you verify the film is good with a control test, of any kind of the film it self, exposed or unexposed.

Roger Cole
14-Oct-2012, 08:02
instead of over analyzing this you can do a simple test and check your film.

They all look like light leaks or bad film. I would just try film form a real film manufacturer, not a company that makes films for lomo, and markets to students.

Any further analasys is pointless until you verify the film is good with a control test, of any kind of the film it self, exposed or unexposed.

Well the others above are the same film, and don't have the lighthouse problems. I suppose it's possible that one single sheet from the middle of the box was fogged in manufacture somehow. But then it's possible that flaming monkeys...

I can buy the light leak. It looks like that to me. And it's very possible, I'm thinking likely, that two different things are going on here, one a light leak in the light house, and something else with the far smaller dark streaks on the other frames. Note that the ones I posted originally are TMY-2. I shoot mainly that, but I do shoot a few sheets of the Foma. Foma has had some QC issues but that hardly means they aren't a "real" film manufacturer. Sometimes I like the look (I've also never had a problem with their roll film.) In this case I had processed all the TMY-2 I had exposed, so these four sheets are what I had left.

I can certainly try processing a couple of unexposed sheets. I'll bet it'll be a huge waste (of time and effort, not money or materials so much) but I'm willing when time allows.

tgtaylor
14-Oct-2012, 09:48
BUT, note the top edge in the sky of the lake shot, which has a DARK streak - definitely not a light leak. Here's another from the same batch, but a vertical showing some dark streaks near each edge. Besides the fact their dark, they are consistently along the long edge of the film, in both horizontal (lake) and vertical (light fixture) - which to me looks more like processing than anything in camera.


For several years I developed all B&W by hand inversion using the 2521 Tank with 2509N reels for 4x5. Then suddenly I started getting this streak in the very top of the sky region:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8470/8086707728_ce62895a83.jpg

At first I thought that I hadn't filled the tank with the proper amount of chemistry to cover the sheet. I load the drum in a Harrison tent and the notches are always at the bottom right of the sheet which I flip over and those notches - where the sky is - and loaded into the top slot (clear base) of the reel. The positioning is always the case. But I then made sure that enough chemistry was in the tank by slightly overfilling the tank but still got that streak in the sky region. I have since switched to rotary processing all B&W 4x5 and the problem immediately disappeared.

Although I have a 3010 tank, I use the 2521's (I have two) for those occassions where I have 6 or less and more than ten sheets to process and if I have enough sheets to process always load the reels with 6 sheets. For sometime I thought that the problem was the result of photoflo buildup on the reel preventing an even flow across that portion of the negative. But if that was the case then you would expect it to appear at different locations as well which it never did. Always in that same exact location - a horizontal band extending across the film where the top slot is positioned. I still process 35mm and 120 B&W by hand inversion and have never experienced the above problem.

If anyone has an answer to what is causing this, and why it is confined to the 4x5 reels, I'm all ears.

Thomas

PS: Fuji Acros

evan clarke
14-Oct-2012, 09:53
Some more developer, agitate at least on 4 or even P. Make sure there is no fixer residue on the reels or in the tanks. Fixer sticks to everything.

Roger Cole
14-Oct-2012, 11:39
I'm not sure if Evan was addressing me or TG. In my case I certainly used plenty of developer, and I think using the fast rotation speed on the CPE2 (which has only two, the CPE2+ has only one) was the very reason for the much worse and even stranger streaks that started this post.

I'm going with the assumption that I have a light leak from more bellows pinholes. This original bellows on my 1950s era Tech III has plenty of tape on it now, more holes won't surprise me, and that's what caused the weird light streaks on the lighthouse shot. Now once I check it, if I don't find any, that'll be different - next step then will be to put a lens on, extend to max, load a holder and pull the darkslide for a few seconds without making an exposure with the shutter and see what I get, if anything.

The dark streaks, which look like TG's, I believe are a different problem of some sort. I don't think they're bad film, and they're definitely nothing to do with Photoflo. I bought these reels brand new and they've never been exposed to Photoflo. I soak in Photoflo in a separate tray right before hanging to dry.

koh303
14-Oct-2012, 12:02
Holders could be leaking light as well. Box might have been exposed, or film was exposed during loading of holders\reels.
Only way to find out is doing a control process.
If you dont have the time but want to sort it out - send your control sheets to a lab and see what you get.

Roger Cole
14-Oct-2012, 12:41
Holders are easy enough to check, and easy enough to identify. All mine are Riteways with the number wheels and I leave them set to same as the holder number I've written on the outside for just that reason. I'd have time when I have an extra weekend - probably weekend after next as I'm busy next weekend.

koh303
14-Oct-2012, 13:15
good luck!

evan clarke
14-Oct-2012, 15:11
I was talking to Roger. I have seen this edge issue with the big drums and more sheets, there are just more obstacles for the developer to circulate through. I solved it with more developer (not more for chemical reasons, but for film coverage) and plenty of agitation. I started using paper drums for 8x10 and 11x14 film. At first I was skimping on developer a little bit
and trying the slow agitation speed. The same problems occurred with that routine. I went to more developer and the P setting on my CPP2. and haven't had any issues in the last 200 or so sheets of 11x14. I have six sets of single reel 4x5 drums and two running Jobos and I really prefer doing four sheets per drum and running both machines. I have never had an issue with the setup, can do a lot of film in a short time but don't have all my eggs in one basket...messing up 12 sheets is a really painful experience..the exposed film is more valuable than a little time or some more chemistry!!

Lenny Eiger
14-Oct-2012, 15:46
I use the expert drums, not sure how it relates exactly, but I would never consider using less than 1200 ml's of liquid. I use Xtol 1:1 and that's 600 of stock. I can do 10 4x5's at a time, with no issue. consistently, etc. I can also do 5 8x10's in the larger tank, tho' I usually go to 1300 or so...

I should be able to use slightly less for the 4x5's, but why tempt fate? For 100-200 ml's of developer? Crazy.

Lenny

Roger Cole
14-Oct-2012, 16:33
I was talking to Roger. I have seen this edge issue with the big drums and more sheets, there are just more obstacles for the developer to circulate through. I solved it with more developer (not more for chemical reasons, but for film coverage) and plenty of agitation. I started using paper drums for 8x10 and 11x14 film. At first I was skimping on developer a little bit
and trying the slow agitation speed. The same problems occurred with that routine. I went to more developer and the P setting on my CPP2. and haven't had any issues in the last 200 or so sheets of 11x14. I have six sets of single reel 4x5 drums and two running Jobos and I really prefer doing four sheets per drum and running both machines. I have never had an issue with the setup, can do a lot of film in a short time but don't have all my eggs in one basket...messing up 12 sheets is a really painful experience..the exposed film is more valuable than a little time or some more chemistry!!

I agree about the chemistry but I used plenty. Drum calls for 270ml for one 2509n reel. I used to use 300 and never had an issue with that, but for this run, coming off a bad run in the bigger drum, I used 400ml.

I had recently gone to the faster speed because of Jobo's recommendation, but didn't know this was only for roll film. After the much worse unevenness in the prior batch (some of which didn't develop at all, apparently due to the drum being too far out of level for that amount of solution, see above.)


I use the expert drums, not sure how it relates exactly, but I would never consider using less than 1200 ml's of liquid. I use Xtol 1:1 and that's 600 of stock. I can do 10 4x5's at a time, with no issue. consistently, etc. I can also do 5 8x10's in the larger tank, tho' I usually go to 1300 or so...

I should be able to use slightly less for the 4x5's, but why tempt fate? For 100-200 ml's of developer? Crazy.

Lenny

Maximum recommended capacity in my little CPE2 is 600ml. Thought I am willing to go a little higher, say 800, 1200 is double the recommended capacity and right out. I don't want to burn out the motor on my processor.

If I can't make effective use of the 2553, that's ok. I have two 2521 tanks (actually three as I bought the test drum print drum to use for two 4x5 sheets without realizing the body is exactly the same - but I only have two cog lids) and three 2509n reels and two loader bases. I can run one batch after another blast the tank and lid with a hair dryer and then load the third reel if I need to, and keep the 2553 for the day I buy a CPP2/CPA2/CPP3. ;)

I used 600 and leveled the processor, not the tank, and had problems. I'm willing to go to 800 and level the tank, which should take care of it, but if it doesn't I'll just not use the 2553 and stick to the 2521.

But that's a different issue from whatever screwed up these sheets. Clearly there was plenty of developer.