Unicolor drum problems

[Michael Pry]

Wanting to obtain the best possible consistency with my 8X10 work I am trying drum developing. I started with a Beseler drum and a Unicolor base(the kind that reverses automatically) but the smooth walls on the Beseler drum were not helping so I aquired a Unicolor print drum and began testing it out. It is an 11X14 drum so as I can do 2 8/10's at once. The problem I am experiencing is driving me nuts! I keep getting lines where the ridges are on the inside of the drum. The lines are about 1/4 inch wide and run the length of the negative. They aren't showing with every single ridge on the drum but they will be in like a group of three(spaced the exact distance as the ridges) then an inch or so with none, then a group of maybe two, then none for awhile, then maybe a group of four, etc., etc. Also the lines aren't all exactly 1/4 inch wide as they deviate(not like they were drawn with a ruler). I am doing the testing with FP4 and Pyrocat 2:2:100 using 500ml chemistry for two sheets. And yes the emulsion is facing in towards the center of the tube. My thought at first was that the weight of 500ml of chemistry is causing the film to sag or scallop between certain ridges and thus setting up a non desireable flow pattern resulting in an uneven type development but I originally started out with 200ml chemistry and not only had the vertical lines but uneven densities running across them. When I upped the chemistry to 500ml the uneven densities went away. I have even tried presoaking out of the tube and loading wet to no avail. I know people use these and love them but I am so perplexed by what is happening. Especially when I hear "Never had a problem", "Never once had any streaks", etc., etc.

Here is my procedure (in the tank**);

1) Pre soak in distilled water for 5 min.(In the drum and running) 2) Pyrocat 2:2:100 for 7 min. 3) 15ml 28% acetic acid/1000ml water for 1 min. 4) Kodak F4 fixer for 4 min. **using 500ml chemistry

Out of tank;

5) HCA 1:4 for 2 min. 6) 20 min. wash 7) 1 min photo flow 8) 20 min wash. Actually the steps 5-8 are meanningless as I see the streaks as the film comes out of the tube and before I put it in the HCA.

I have run about 8 sheets so far and some are not as bad as others but they are there on every one. I was using a citric acid stop bath on a few and it was the same. I actuallu aquired TWO tubes and the other one does the same thing. Any help would be really appreciated. I have searched usage of uniclor print tubes and haven't seen this before on other posts. Thank you kindly in advance your thoughts and time.

Mike Pry Salem, WI

[Max Wendt]

I've read about that happening with pyro (pyrocat, specifically). I got the impression that they would only affect UV light for alt processing - it wasn't totally clear, though.

Have you tried printing any of the negs?

[Bob Fowler]

I've never processed film in an 11X14 Unidrum, but I've done plenty of prints in them. Have you tried using an 8X10 drum and doing the negs one at a time? I use 300ml of solution when processing 4 4X5 or 2 5X7 negs in an 8X10 drum, so I presume you'd have to use at least 500ml (600ml may be better) for 2 8X10 sheets in an 11x14 drum. I've been using HC-110 dilution H for Plus-X and Tri-X.

BTW - I've not had any streaking problems...

[Darin Cozine]

Check the film to see if the lines are on the front(emulsion) side or the back. You should be loading the film so that the emulsion is facing inward, and the back of the film is against the tank.

If the lines are on the back of the film, there are two possibilities. 1: Chemical residue or halation coating not washed away. Try adding small plastic spacers to the edges of the tank so that the back of the film only touches at the edges.

2: scratches due to loading/unloading the film. I had this problem with my 4x5's. Make sure the holders are clean of dust/dirt, and dont bend the fim when loading/unloading.

If you still cant figure it out. try to isolate the problem. You may try taking out a sheet of film to inspect it(without loading it into a holder). Then develop it, this will help determine where the lines are coming from.

[Doug_3727]

Mike, I use a unicolor 8x10 and 16x20 tube using Pyro and have had great results. The only thing I see different in your process and mine is I DO NOT PRESOAK the negatives. I know, everybody and their brother says you have to but that is for tray development not tubes. Try one negative and see if that doesn't help. The only other thing I can think of would be something specifically with the HP4 but I don't thank the film is the problem. Good luck and let us know how you do. Doug

[tim atherton]

Ilford specifically recomends NOT pre-soaking FP4 and HP5 - so maybe that's it.

I've used the same set-up with FP4 and Xtol, DD-X and D23 and had good results (but see my message in the other Unicolor thread) - I've had similar problems as you with HP5, but never FP4...)

[Brian Ellis]

The first thing I'd do is forget the presoak. Ilford recommends against it, I believe their films include some type of protection against something and that protection gets washed away by the presoak (sorry, I forget the details, "protection" probably isn't the right term but you get the idea hopefully). I don't think presoaking accomplishes anything with most modern filsm, it used to be recommended with the old "thick emulsion" films but I've read that it isn't needed with most modern films and may actually be detrimental with some. I tried processing with and without a presoak when I developed 8x10 in trays, sometimes in pyro sometimes in D76, and never noticed any difference in the negatives whether I presoaked or not so I stopped spending the time it took to do it.

[Leonard Robertson]

Go to Sandy King's Pyro article: http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html On page two are steps for developing, including a 5 minute presoak being "absolutely essential with rotary processing". On the same page, see the information on "Print drums on motor base" about removing the drum and giving sideways agitation (I also turn the drum end for end on the base every minute after the sideways agitation, although that may not be needed). I think these things will solve your problems. I'm presently doing 5X7 Arista 125 (widely believed to be FP4) in an 8X10 Unicolor drum on a Unicolor motor base using Pyrocat-HD 2:2:100 and haven't noticed any streaking or uneveness. It is possible Sandy's presoak and sideways agitation are only necessary for Pyrocat, but as long as I'm using it, I plan to follow his advice.

[Pablo]

Just try re-fixing in a tray outside of the tubes........could be halation coating not being removed from back of emulsion because of the ribs in the tubes. Just a guess.

[sanking]

Michael,

To repeat what I said on another forum, with some additional comments.

I really have no clue as to the problem. In my own work I have never used a 11X14 drum for processing 8X10 film, but I have used one of the same diameter and with the same internal configuration to develop two sheets of 7X17 at a time.

As far as I can determine your procedures are virtually identical to mine.

Are the streak lines on the outside of the film (facing the drum) or on the emulsion side (facing in)? The question assumes that you loaded the film correctly. However, given your description of the process the only possibility that enters my mind is that you loaded the film incorrectly, with the emulsion side facing the wall of the tube. If you were to do this it would certainly result in the patterns that you describe. Otherwise I have no way to explain the streaks.

However, to address two issues introduced here that were not mentioned on the other forum.

First, please read carefully Leonard Robertson's message. He makes important points about the type of agitation needed with this type of processing.

Second, I do absolutely advise the presoak. I have looked at this issue very carefully, with an abundance of testing of different films, and my conclusion is that a presoak, of specific length, is very important with rotary processing for consistency in negative CI. I am certainly aware of the pros and cons in the literature (Ilford, Jobo, etc.) re: presoak, but in spite of the controversy I am personally absolutely convinced that for rotary processing with Pyro developers the presoak is very imporant for consistency in processing to a certain CI. And for some other reasons also, but that is another chapter.

[Darin Cozine]

Michael, could you post a scan of the problem?

[bob moulton]

I have been usng the unicolor base with either th jobo 2500 drum or the 3010 for several years with b/w and no problems. I compared results with the same drums on a jobo cpa-2 and measured no densitiy shifts. You might try getting on e o those drums and trying it.

[John Kasaian]

Michael,

You cannot do two 8x10s in an 11x14 drum. One sheet yes, two no. I have the same drum, there is not room for both sheets without overlapping and nothing to hold both secure to the sides of the drum if they didn't overlap. I've got an 11x14 drum so I know this is true. I hope this helps.

Cheers!

[tim atherton]

"You cannot do two 8x10s in an 11x14 drum. One sheet yes, two no. I have the same drum, there is not room for both sheets without overlapping and nothing to hold both secure to the sides of the drum if they didn't overlap. I've got an 11x14 drum so I know this is true. I hope this helps."

Funny - I have a Unicolor 11x14 drum - you can do two 8x10 sheets in mine - it has the little "v"s at both top and bottom (+the box says 4 5x7; 2 8x10; 1 11x14...)

:-)

tim

[John Kasaian]

Tim, How do you do that? Do they fit side by side with a spacer to keep them from over lapping? Or will they fit into opposite sides of the drum??

[tim atherton]

I got two off ebay that were actually new old stock (with a price label dated in the early 1980's sometime...) and they had an instruction sheet with them.

They have one central "v" and two side notches at the "bottom" and one central "v" on the top so an 11x14 sheet would slot in one bottom notch and curve all the way around inside and slot in the other notch (same way as one 8x10 sheet does in the 8x10 drum)

for 8x10, one slots in the bottom, central "v" and curves up one half of the inside to one side of the top "v". Another does the same on the other side/half

This is the Unidrum II

The sheet is very simple, but I could scan it and see if Tuan will put it on the site with the Unicolor article?

[Michael Pry]

John, One thing that I do know is that you can in fact do two 8/10's at a time. As Tim mentioned you may also do 4 5/7's as well. I'm ready to give up on these things as I never have had so much trouble(this should be fun, right?)Initially what I was trying to achieve was a technique that would be repeatable...every time with no variation. Now I have used the Beseler drum(11X14) with the smooth sides and have loaded the film wet after a minimal pre-soak then continuing with a five minute pre-soak in the drum with motor base on. After a 2 minute fix in the drum(Beseler) and 2 minutes outside with fixer in a tray the negs where great. What I really was after in addition to a repeatable consistent technique was the luxury of simply loading film dry and away we go. Not happening. I will ruminate on all this for awhile. Thanks everyone for your responses.

[Al W]

I've gotten excellent repeatable results from the Beseler print drums. I have 4 of the 11x14s so I can process 16 sheets of 5x7 without having to clean and dry drums! Repeatable results is one of the beauties of this process.

Pablo is absolutely correct. The halation coating does have to be removed after coming out of the drum. Tray fixing after a fix in the drum is important.

[John Kasaian]

Tim & Mike,

I got out my 11x14 Unicolor drum to see where I went wrong. It isn't the Unicolor II, but here is what I found:

Surprise(to me)! Two sheets of 8x10 will fit. It would be harder to get them in while in the dark though. That is what I tried when I first got the drum, so that is how I reached my conclusion. It would be very easy to scratch the emulsion on the first sheet if one isn't 'dead on' inserting the second sheet in the drum. Next, I tried 5x7. This took more effort...I could get it stay in, but when I rolled the drum, the film would pop out of the ridges. I eventually found the combination of which ridges to use and both 5x7s did stay put. I guess my touch isn't as "educated." Then I got out some 4x5. No way would those stay put in the 11x14 drum with the short dimension in the channels.

I stand in error, mea culpa!

Cheers!

[Leonard Robertson]

I developed 2 sheets of Freestyle 125 (reputed to be FP4) in an 11X14 Unicolor drum on a Unicolor motor base, using Pyrocat 2:2:100 - 400ml. with 500ml distilled water presoak for 5 minutes. The negatives came out looking just fine; no sign of streaking. I wonder if Mike's streaking problem is a batch of FP4 with an especially tough antihalation backing that wasn't easily removed where it was close to the ribs in the Unicolor drum. In my 11X14 drum, the film is pressed snuggly against the center two ribs and quite close to the next two. Mike, before giving up on your Unicolor drums, you might try a different film, even a different batch of FP4. I've actually given up on Unicolor drums twice now due to leaks, but the silicone sealer under the rubber gasket trick has worked great on the one 8X10 drum I've tried it on, so I'm hopeful it will fix all the rest. I keep coming back to Unicolor since it is cheap and easy. It is a good system, although there are a few things to learn, but I'm sure that is true with JOBO or any other system. I agree with John about 8X10 sheets being a tight fit into the 11X14 drums. I had been doing 5X7s in an 8X10 drum which are a looser fit. When I was in the dark trying to get the first 8X10 sheet loaded, I wondered if I was wrong about it fitting. However, once the sheet is started into the drum, it slips on in quite easily.