Newbie with questions

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

I just placed my first order with B&H, I've got a lot of film, paper and XTOL, coming in the mail real soon. I probably will not use all of it for years. I bought so much hoping to get the same lot numbers, that way I could do some testing and not have to worry about that again for a long time.
Question is, how should I store XTOL (powder and mixed), do I need a collapsable plastic container to keep the air out? What is the shelf life of unmixed XTOL?
Paper and film, do I need to freeze or just refrigerate? Or just keep in a dark air-conditioned closet? Wrap/seal in plastic or not?
Any other advice would be appreciated.
Oh, by the way B&H told me Kodak DC'd XTOL. I bought a large quantity.
Bill

[Mark Barendt]

Recycled wine box/wine bladder.

[Steve Barber]

One of the things I like most about Kodak is the wealth of information regarding their products that they make available on the Internet. For example, regarding your questions about XTOL, if you Google the words, "Kodak XTOL datasheet", you get the following URL:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j109/j109.pdf

Other manufacturers also offer similar resources, to a greater or lesser degree. Some, such as Fuji, can be a bit elusive, but still do offer useful information. Some of the retailers, also, have information that can be helpful, particularly for the smaller more obscure producers. So, when looking for information such as what you were looking for, for XTOL and the other products you purchased, try using Google to find it. You can get a lot more information, that way, with a lot less trouble than it would take to give complete answers here, in the forum.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Steve, thanks that is a great resource, my printer is busy printing it out right now. I plan on putting the unopened XTOL packages in sealed plastic bins and keep in an air conditioned closet.

I'll be looking up Kodak's recom for film and paper but I'm sure there are different opinions on the Forum, what works and what does not.
How do the other photographers store their film? I've read about refrigeration, freezing, condensation, fogging, different testing being required and not being required for different lot numbers...etc.
How long (and how) do most store film and paper at home? When you buy film/paper do you just buy a small quantity, not worry about lot numbers, not worry about availability...etc?
I'll read what Kodak has to say but I'd like to hear from other folks too.
Thanks again for that reference, it went into great depth and answered questions that I didn't even know I had.
Bill

[Cletus]

Ha ha! Looks like Bill got tired of my "Book-long" emails on this stuff! :) just kidding.....

Bill - after you told me about B&H saying XTOL was discontinued, I started a thread here on it and got several mixed opinions. I spoke (emailed) with Freestyle and they seem to think XTOL is still going strong, no indication tha Kodak is killing it - which may or may not mean anything.

Also, Freestyle says their "Legacy Pro Eco" ascorbic acid developer is the exact equivalent of XTOL "in every way", so in the event Kodak nixes XTOL, Freestyle seems to have a viable alternative ....just an FYI...and I understand you are just getting second opinions on some stuff with this post...I was really kidding abut the emails. (not so much about the 'book-long' comment!)

FWIW - I store dry powder chems in a cool dry place and don't worry about it too much. Never had a problem with two year expired dry powder of any kind. Expired paper can be a little more unpredictable though, IME.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Cletus,
Good to hear from you, I liked your e-mails so much that I saved them for future reference. I will be needing them soon.

What helped me most was you laying it out AS YOU DO IT.
Most people say things like you can use anyone of these 3 developers, either of these 2 stop baths, and anyone of 4 different fixers...etc. When they are done I have about a couple of hundred possible combinations.
You were specific, and yes I'll start off doing it your way, your determined ISO, your chemicals and process, using your old camera and your old lenses...etc. I can't wait to get started, and thank you for all the help in giving me a starting point. The camera and lenses look fantastic too.

Question # 134.... How do you store your film/paper, long term? Air conditioning, frig, freezer? Wrapped in plastic? Does freezing work? I read where some on this forum sell old stock, but it's OK because it's been in the freezer since they bought it???

Also I read where you have a special containers for your mixed XTOL, I assume these collapse to keep the air out? Are they a special non-reactive plastic? Kodak says to keep the air out.

Do I have to worry about the quality of plastic, for example I just bought 5 pitchers for pouring chemicals into the developing tanks. I got them at Walmart for a whopping 98 cents each!
I had planned on marking them so they would only be used for 1 chemical. Is that 98 cent pitcher going to do the job or not?

Any other advice, the fine points of setting up a darkroom, go ahead Cletus, I have a large hard drive.
Bill

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

I have that same question for Cletus!

Here it is. If a person stores chemicals in say straight walled pitchers like those used for drinks, etc., and you fashion a cover to fit right over the chemical, with say a rubber type gasket to keep it relatively tight, and you float that cover right over the chemical itself, is that "Keeping the air out"? I would like to know because it sounds like a cheap (and therefore elegant) solution.

[Jim Jones]

Some plastics may be more permeable than others. I've used plastic soft drink bottles to store Kodak T-Max developer partly full for over a year with no problem. This may not apply to photographers with rigerous quality control or to other developers.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Jim, I like the price of the soda bottles, I also like the ability to squeeze out the air. Kodak says "No air...last long time". And another thing, YOU have done it and it worked!!!
Did you use colored (green bottles) or clear? If you keep it in the dark I guess it would not really matter.
Thanks Jim, I'm going to go that route.
Bill

[Cletus]

I use Nalgene chemical storage bottles in 1L and 500mL sizes for film developer. Since I use XTOL, I can mix a 5L batch and store it in three 1L bottles and four 500mL bottles. I fill each bottle evenly and then use water to top off the last 10-15mL so each bottle is completely full - no air space. Ive kept it for up to a year this way, but it's rare I go that long without using it.

When I mix a batch of working solution, I start with a 500mL bottle and mx 1:1 to make 1L WS. I don't worry about shelf-life 'cause I'm using it now and in the next day or so. The bottles are heavy, opaque white and can be got fom McMaster-Carr. Very durable and resistant.

As for a pitcher with a floating kid, I don't know why not? Big labs used to use the 5-10 gallon tanks that way and seem to do alright. if I have a big, gallon or half-gallon bottle partially full, I use some canned air and use it to "inert" the empty space for short term storage of Dektol FS and WS.

They say glass is the only bottles that are impermeable to air (oxygen) getting in, but I don't thnk for the volumes we typically use and the length of tme we store this stuff that it's really that big of a deal.

[Bill Burk]

I'm a fan of the brown plastic quart-sized bottles like hydrogen peroxide comes in. For the seal in the lid I cut circles out of Skippy peanut butter freshness seals. I make four quarts developer at a time and fill three of the four bottles close to the top and squeeze just a little before sealing the lid so there's no air. The fourth bottle comes up a little short I don't bother squeezing it, I just make a point to use it first.

This works out with my habits, usually I'll work in waves and go through a quart of developer within a week. So I don't worry about air.

I used to have a pair of 25-gallon Nalgene tanks my boss gave me when I worked at a printing plant. The developer tank had a floating lid, the fixer tank didn't. Floating lids are a practical concept and it has been done. My youthful dreams I thought I'd need them but now even in my dreams I don't see myself using that much chemistry, so they're gone.

[Pawlowski6132]

My advice, from one newbie to another, would to have been to just buy what you could consume in a month or so. The impact from batch-to-batch differences are relatively non-existent, especially to newbies like us. There will be FAR more variables to deal with that will have a much larger impact on your results. Also, the advantage that you theoretically gained from buying things from the same batch will be erased by the impact of time and improper storage of your materials. Plus, I can almost guarantee, that as a newbie, you will be curious to try other film's papers, chemicals, processes as you learn more. Finally, I have also learned that, as a newbie, buying expired film and paper and chemicals is the WRONG way to learn. It may seem counter intuitive, I know. But, you're better off to buy fresh, inexpensive stuff. Not that you did this but...

[Bill Burk]

My advice, from one newbie to another, would to have been to just buy what you could consume in a month or so...

Pawlowski6132, I didn't think you were a newbie...

I agree, expired film adds a variable that you don't need. Fast film loses speed with decades of time. If you don't test expired film and catch the fact it is slower, you may underexpose an important shot. Slow film seems much less affected. I keep some Kodak Panatomic-X film in the freezer. I shoot 4x5 Kodak 400 TMAX (TMY-2). I buy as needed and use within a few months. If I have a spare box it will be wrapped in plastic wrap in the freezer and the open box is "out" on a shelf in the garage/darkroom.

p.s. I work for Kodak but the opinions and positions I take are my own and not necessarily those of EKC.

[Bruce Osgood]

One of the things I like most about Kodak is the wealth of information regarding their products that they make available on the Internet. For example, regarding your questions about XTOL, if you Google the words, "Kodak XTOL datasheet", you get the following URL:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j109/j109.pdf

This is a very good source. I have spent weeks and wasted lots of film with the PDF dated 2004. The 2008 PDF (referenced) has info that is applicable to today's Xtol. The 2004 doesn't.

[ROL]

Cletus,
Good to hear from you, I liked your e-mails so much that I saved them for future reference. I will be needing them soon.

What helped me most was you laying it out AS YOU DO IT.
Most people say things like you can use anyone of these 3 developers, either of these 2 stop baths, and anyone of 4 different fixers...etc. When they are done I have about a couple of hundred possible combinations.
You were specific, and yes I'll start off doing it your way, your determined ISO, your chemicals and process, using your old camera and your old lenses...etc. I can't wait to get started, and thank you for all the help in giving me a starting point. The camera and lenses look fantastic too.

Not Cletus.


Question # 134....

Unopened film in small freezer, opened in frig drawer. Paper in dark "cool" (depending on season) closet, large freezer if you have the room for/can afford it.


Also I read where you have a special containers for your mixed XTOL, I assume these collapse to keep the air out?...

These floating lid containers (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/43191-REG/Doran_PRPRT2_Chemical_Storage_Tank_2_Gallon.html) are lovely.

Don't mix any more than you'll use in a few weeks time. Lifespans are listed on chemical packages for stock (mixed, normally 6 months dark/cool) and dry storage.


Do I have to worry about the quality of plastic, for example I just bought 5 pitchers for pouring chemicals into the developing tanks. I got them at Walmart for a whopping 98 cents each!
I had planned on marking them so they would only be used for 1 chemical. Is that 98 cent pitcher going to do the job or not?

Take a breath. It ain't rocket science.


Any other advice, the fine points of setting up a darkroom...

A Darkroom Portrait (http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/pages/a-darkroom-portrait)



go ahead Cletus...

Once again, still not Cletus.

[Cletus]

ROL - I'm certainly open to opposing points of view, but I can't tell what you mean...

What is "not Cletus"?

If you disagree with something I said, I'd be glad to hear what you think. Bill and I have been having an off-line correspondence for some time now. He's asked me what my general DR practices are and I've told him what I do and what works for me. If I'm not understanding something, or if you think I'm way off here in my opinions, please enlighten me....

[ROL]

Wow, got your panties all in a twist don't ya? It's pretty simple really. The OP (oddly, I thought) addressed his questions to "Cletus" in a public forum. I was only making certain he knew I wasn't "Cletus", nor answering for "Cletus". I'm not disagreeing with anything "Cletus" said – and don't much care, either. But nobody seemed inclined to respond to the OP's doubly asked question about paper storage or darkroom, so I (not "Cletus") did. Am I going to have to owe you an explanation for all my responses? I guess we're all supposed to know of your off line correspondence by PUBLIC forum?!? My subtle sense of humor responding as one a few unCletuses – or is that unCleti? Holy Cletus, now I am going to have to explain that one too. :eek:

Feeling enlightened?

[Bill Burk]

I was only making certain he knew I wasn't "Cletus", nor answering for "Cletus".

That's funny! Thanks for clearing up the mystery. I was looking everywhere for long posts by Cletus, I thought they might have been in another thread. And I thought maybe you had given Bill some advice earlier and he mistakenly attributed your advice to Cletus. Since I was sure you had given step-by-step instructions, I was looking everywhere for that too - since you give great step-by-step instructions.

[Cletus]

Geez. ROL, My panties are just fine - I had to go back and re-read to see where I had so deeply offended thee. I guess I can see now how you might have taken my question, it certainly wasn't intentional. Sort of in the same way your remarks weren't intended to offend, either...

I could only get, from the rather ambiguous "not Cletus" that you were in disagreement with something I had said, and were trying to make it clear to everyone that your points or suggestions were not to be confused with my own. (and then, over a topic of such vital importance!) Since that's all I could figure, I was truly interested to know what I'd said that you didn't agree with. I realize the way I asked that question might have appeared a tad provocative.

I can see now, thanks to your.....uh, explanation, that you were only being wry with the Cletus references. I can appreciate that.

Looks like I wasn't the only one who didn't quite get it. I'll lighten up a little if you will...

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Again thanks to everyone. I will be putting my stock of film and paper in freezer bags and then in a plastic tub, then into the freezer. I guess leaving them in the plastic and sitting out over night will do the trick.

ROL, that tub with the floating lid looks nice, but why not use plastic water bottles and squeeze out any air. How about smaller quantities in plastic soda bottles, again squeezing out any air. That way it will fit in a cabinet and the tubs are disposable, and completely air tight. Cheap, easy, clean... that makes it elegant, right? Is there any down side that I am over looking using cheap plastic containers?

That darkroom sure looks like a dream come true, mine is a fraction of that size. I am just now putting it together.
Again thanks to everyone, this Forum is a great place, ask a question and get several answers, see how several other people do it.
Bill