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Bill, 70's military B&W
14-Sep-2012, 18:45
Voigtlander Collinear Series ll no. 6 f 6.3 focus 12 1/4 inch,
I just acquired this lens in an old Acme shutter, I can not find out much about it. The glass looks to be in good condition, the shutter is most likely not repairable. I'm a Newbie and have a couple of questions:
Is this lens a quality item? Will it cover 4x5, 5x7 or 8x10? Is it worth putting it in a new shutter? Approx what would a shutter cost for this lens?
Does this lens have any special qualities, good for this or especially good for that?
Thanks,
Bill

Steven Tribe
15-Sep-2012, 04:10
Is this lens a quality item?

Yes,

Will it cover 4x5, 5x7 or 8x10?

The catalogue (31cm) says it was made for 24x30cm. So about 10x12".

Is it worth putting it in a new shutter?

Probably not. There may be a compound shutter which fits. Otherwise Copal sinar shutter.

This is the Voigtländer design which came just after the Heliar. The smaller ones are F5.4. Originally, they were slightly cheaper than the Heliar but have better coverage (85%) for focal lengths.

Bill, 70's military B&W
15-Sep-2012, 14:18
Steve, Thanks for your info. It's good to know that it will cover 8x10. You said it is a quality lens, does it have any special qualities, portraits, soft focus...etc? Does it have any value? It is sitting in an old broken shutter and I can not even get the Iris to open. The glass looks good.

About how much does a shutter cost? I'm talking about being practical, having a used one mounted. I have no idea at all.
Sounds expensive, but it never hurts to ask.
Again thanks for all the help,
Bill

Dan Fromm
15-Sep-2012, 16:39
The Collinear is not the same design as the Dagor, but is supposed to behave similarly.

Acme shutter? That's an Ilex model, they were made until recently and chances are that your lens' cells will go directly into a used Ilex Acme (cock-and-shoot) or Ilex Universal (press shutter). Dimensions etc. here: http://www.skgrimes.com/library/used-obsolete-discontinued-shutters/ilex

Unscrew the cells and measure. Then you'll know what's possible. Then go on eBay, search for Ilex. You'll find shutters with and without lenses. Under no circumstances buy an Ilex electronic shutter.

Oh, yeah. Why do you think the shutter can't be repaired?

Bill, 70's military B&W
15-Sep-2012, 17:07
Dan,
I'm a Newbie and I have read the word Dagor on the Forum several times, and it was well respected, but I do not know what is special about a Dagor? Great sharpness? Good portraits, soft focus, great contrast...etc. My biggest question is is this lens worth fooling with?
Right now I have the lens in the mail to Carol Flutot, I am asking her the same questions.
The shutter just looks too old and too beat up. I couldn't even get the Iris to open. I hope Carol can save it.
My immediate concern is what if Carol says yes she can fix/replace it but the price is $XXX. What is this lens worth, putting money into it???
What does this lens have to offer compared to a more modern lens.
I'll have to make a decision in the near future so all the help is really appreciated.
I told Carol that if it is not repairable then she can keep the shutter for any parts she can salvage.

Bill, 70's military B&W
15-Sep-2012, 17:21
A few months ago I saw the same lens except it was a Series 8 (if I remember correctly) on e-bay for a couple of thousand dollars.
I just clicked on a link below, and someone last year had a Voigtlander COLLINEAR, Series II, 20cm f/5.4, for sale for $800.
I do not know enough about this lens to understand the small differences, but I'd like to know all I can about this lens. My Google searches have not helped much.
The lens is not all that impressive to me, a Newbie, but I do not have any experience in this area. I definitely curious about why these other lenses are so valuable. Is mine a diamond in the rough?

I acquired the lens when I bought 'a lot' from someone, it was in the bottom of the box. I know nothing about it. I've asked Carol and she only knows about the shutter, she is not hopeful about the shutter, but she has not seen it yet. She should have it early next week.
All help will be appreciated.

goamules
15-Sep-2012, 18:24
I've seen the Collinear prices go pretty high the past 2 years, but it could be that's because they were also large coverage ones. Anything that covers a lot more than 8x10 is valuable, because they're less common. I can't imagine the lens being any better or worse than similar speed lenses of the period like Tessar IIbs and Dagors.

Bill, 70's military B&W
16-Sep-2012, 06:31
Goamules, thanks,
I am waiting to hear from Carol, but she only deals with the shutter. Information about the lens is hard to come by.
Are the more modern lenses "BETTER" than the Collinear, or does this lens have some special property. I can buy modern 300ish mm lens/shutter combinations for $250 to $450.
Why would I put that kind of money into the Collinear?
Bill

Dan Fromm
16-Sep-2012, 09:24
Bill, a shutter overhaul should cost less than $100. The Collinear Series II is, the VM says, a good lens.


Kollinear Series 11 This seems to be the most common from experience, and today are usually available if
you look. They were general purpose lenses with an extra rapid classification but also highly corrected and
with the advantage of being convertible to a lens of twice the focus.Thus it is useful for landscapes, long focus
work, interiors and copying. Unusually, no angle of cover is given in the USA list but two formats for each
focus are listed. The Layout is Voi012 and in 1914 it was made as:
f5.4 2.375in for 1.5x1.5in; 2.75in for 1.75x2.5in; 3.5in for 3.25x3.25in; 4.75in for 3.25x4.25in; 5.5in for
4.25x4.75in; 6.0in for 4x5in; 7.0in for 4.5x6.5in; 8in for 6.5x8.5in; and also 9.0in, 12, 13.5, 15, 17.5, 20cm;
f6.3, 25cm for 5x8in; 31cm for 6.5x8.5in, 37cm for 8x10in, 44cm for 12x15in , 52cm, 60cm for 14x17in. It
covers about 80° in all sizes. The above formats are at full aperture, and are increased at medium stops. Thus
the 6in then covers not 5x4in but even 5x7in.
All sizes from No2 to No6 ie 4.75in to 12in inclusive were avaialable as cells to fit to shutters.
This may not have applied in other years but the lenses seen fit the scheme. It is normally classed as a fine
lens but the f5.4 seen has not been a very useful lens in experience, but this example may have been poor.
The f6.8 and f6.3 are much sharper and less flarey. It was also covered by DRP 88,505. [Afalter seems to have
the same series of apertures and foci in Germany in 1910, but notes it covers 60°. This may be at full
aperture.]

They were sold in the US in a variety of shutters.


A note about Shutters!
The 1915-1916 USA list summarizes the then situation over shutter mounting. All sizes of Dynar and the
medium sizes of Collinear Series II and III were avaialble to fit in blade shutters, normally at a few dollars less.
The shutters used were Wollensak Autex, Wollensak Optimo, Deckel Compound or ? Compur and Acme.

There is a post-WW I f/6.3 Collinear that's supposed to be better than the older f/6.3 Series II. If you have your lens' serial number, we can put a date on it.

Dagors? They're reasonably sharp, well corrected for color, contrasty and, to speak of hokeh, have a smooth transition from in- to out-of-focus. Still very usable today. Dagors weren't sold as convertible lenses but some Dagor clones (Beryl, Perigraphe, dagor type Symmar) were. The Collinear is, like the Dagor, a six elements in two groups double anastigmat, has a different design to get around the Dagor patent. In general, Dagors, Dagor clones, and anti-Dagors (that's the Collinear) are very usable lenses by today's standards.

As with all used lenses, condition is everything. If your treasure's glass is clean, unscratched, and there are no separations it is well worth keeping.

premortho
16-Sep-2012, 11:22
The Voightlaander lenses have a reputation for lending a quality of "roundness" to the images they transmit to the film plane. This is supposedly true, in varying degrees, of all Voightlaander lenses. Tessars often have a wiry two-dimensional look by comparison. I doubt if Voightlaander ever achieved twenty percent of Zeiss production, so they are scarcer. What you have is a jewel of a lens. Ilex shutters are world famous...the german rights to the clockwork design were acquired by F Deckol, of Compur shutter fame. His firm adapted the clockwork design to their Compound Shutter. If your Ilex is truly worn out, it's because they were the go to shutter in the U.S. for seventy-five years, and saw incredibly heavy use by pro photographers. They were designed to run dry, but most were never cleaned or fixed until they stopped working. Like yours is. It probably is fixable, but may be too far gone. If so, they are not impossible to find. But if you find one, I'd ship it off to Carol to have it cleaned and adjusted.

Bill, 70's military B&W
16-Sep-2012, 15:01
Dan and Premortho,
Thanks for the information, it is nice to hear that this may be a 'Jewel of a lens'. The glass looked ok to me, but I have very little experience looking at glass. Another thing is that I could not open the Iris, so I was unable to really look it over very well.

Carol should have the lens on Mon or Tues. I do not know when she'll actually get around to working on it. I'll e-mail her and ask her to look at it to see if it is repairable or not, if not then maybe she and I can start looking for a replacement. I expect she will know what to do, after reading 100% reports about her, everyone on this Forum loves her, I'll just follow her lead. But it sounds like this lens is worth putting a shutter on, esp if I can find a used one.

It is also good to know that it is a convertible lens, 2 for the price of 1. In B&W a contrasty lens is a good thing (right?), being sharp is important to me.
I will probably just leave it with Carol until she finds a shutter, that is if she can not repair this one. It is in good hands.

Again thanks for the help, you have helped save this lens from being forgotten in the bottom of a box, and put it back in service on the front of a camera.
Bill

premortho
17-Sep-2012, 09:34
The shutter was very popular back in the day. With patience, you or she should be able to find a perfect replacement. She knows which other make shutters will interchangewith the Ilex if one of them doesn't turn up. She will know that the threads matching isn't the whole story...the spaceing will have to match up as well. She knows that, but you may not.
Dan and Premortho,
Thanks for the information, it is nice to hear that this may be a 'Jewel of a lens'. The glass looked ok to me, but I have very little experience looking at glass. Another thing is that I could not open the Iris, so I was unable to really look it over very well.

Carol should have the lens on Mon or Tues. I do not know when she'll actually get around to working on it. I'll e-mail her and ask her to look at it to see if it is repairable or not, if not then maybe she and I can start looking for a replacement. I expect she will know what to do, after reading 100% reports about her, everyone on this Forum loves her, I'll just follow her lead. But it sounds like this lens is worth putting a shutter on, esp if I can find a used one.

It is also good to know that it is a convertible lens, 2 for the price of 1. In B&W a contrasty lens is a good thing (right?), being sharp is important to me.
I will probably just leave it with Carol until she finds a shutter, that is if she can not repair this one. It is in good hands.

Again thanks for the help, you have helped save this lens from being forgotten in the bottom of a box, and put it back in service on the front of a camera.
Bill

Bill, 70's military B&W
17-Sep-2012, 19:41
I got an e-mail from Carol, the lenses arrived, and she will look them over soon. I'll keep you posted as to what she says.
Thanks again everyone.

Bill, 70's military B&W
20-Sep-2012, 16:47
Carol worked on the shutter and she said that it was the nicest Acme shutter she has ever seen, works great! She does not like Acme shutters though. I'll bring it home and try it. She is going to give me a timing sheet for the shutter speeds. I'll be able to test the lens and see what kind/quality/style of images it produces.
I'll let you know how it does, Again thanks for all the help.
Bill

Bill, 70's military B&W
3-Oct-2012, 18:04
Here is a picture of the lens/shutter, it's still at Carols. I hope to be shooting with it soon.

Bill, 70's military B&W
3-Oct-2012, 18:05
81440
Here is a picture of the lens/shutter, it's still at Carols. I hope to be shooting with it soon.
I hope it works this time,
Bill

Bill, 70's military B&W
7-Oct-2012, 06:10
When i said "I hopeit works this time." I was referring to posting the picture. First attempt didn't. I'm sure Carol knows her stuff.