Advice - lightweight 14" or 360mm lens for 4x5?

[Jeff Bannow]

I have a 14" RD Artar that I am considering mounting into a shutter. Looks like the cost of the shutter, cleaning, and mounting will probably be $600+ though. This doesn't include the cost of lens caps (might need custom) and an adapter to allow filters to be used. By the time everything is done I could have $1000 into this, and there's no way I could recoup that cost if I decided to sell it.

Before I go through with that, I would like to look at my options. Anyone have a suggestion for a small & lightweight lens, with reasonable room for movements on 4x5?

Not really interested in a 300mm right now - too close to my 240mm. I don't think I could focus a 450mm either.

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Other lenses of similar design and length include the Schneider Repro-Claron and Rodenstock Apo-Ronar. The Apo-Ronar can be found factory mounted in modern shutters, and the Repro-Claron screws directly into a no. 3 shutter. Of course, you can also look for a 14" Apo-Artar in shutter, but these tend to be in Ilex 4 shutter, which are quite heavy. A lighter but harder to find option would be a 360mm f10 Fujinon-A.

[ic-racer]

Fujinon 360-A(S). It is in a Copal #1 and weighs 465g vs 1533g for the 360-W(S) which is in a #3.
80482

[drew.saunders]

KEH.com today (14 September) has a 355/9 RD Artar already mounted in an Ilex shutter in BGN condition for $399. Even if you needed the shutter overhauled, it might be worth getting. Plus, they have a 355/9 G Claron for $751 and a 360/9 APO Artar for $449.

[ic-racer]

Another option would be the Symmar Convertible 210/370. That also came in a Copal #1.
$349.99 on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/180840953542?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D180840953542%26_rdc%3D1

[Jeff Bannow]

Wow! That's a lot of options. That Apo-artar looks like a great choice - what do you all think? I wonder if it has filter threads ....

I would love the Fuji, but I've never seen one for sale.

[Drew Wiley]

I've got a couple of the Fuji A's. They are fantastic. There is also a relatively new Schneider dialyte design 360 in no.1 shutter, but it's probably around $1100 or so. The
Fuji has the best coverage and close-range correction, but is excellent at infinity too,
and plenty sharp for 4x5 film use too. At somewhat more weight, the 355 G-Claron is
generally a good buy - even more coverage that the Fuji, but in a big 3 shutter. Then
there's the 14-inch dagors - still relatively compact, lighter than a general-pupose plastmat, but also 3 shutter, and seem to be wildly overpriced at the moment.

[Jeff Bannow]

There's an Apo-Ronar on ebay right now, but $700 in the compur 2. One should show up at some point though for cheaper ...

[Bill_1856]

For that kind of money you could get into the Nikon telephoto group. Smaller, lighter, and better resale.

[Drew Wiley]

Just depends on the camera itself and whether on not you'll need to use the same lens on
8x10 film too. Big heavy lenses with 3 shutters don't typically work well on many 4x5 camera because there's just not enough mass on the front standard - things can get wobbly. But telephotos can cause similar issues due to excess wt. The Fuji 400T is in a no.1 shutter, but of no use on an 8x10 if that if being contemplated. I really like the Fuji A
because it works so well on both formats, and at almost any focal distance.

[Jeff Bannow]

Just depends on the camera itself and whether on not you'll need to use the same lens on
8x10 film too. Big heavy lenses with 3 shutters don't typically work well on many 4x5 camera because there's just not enough mass on the front standard - things can get wobbly. But telephotos can cause similar issues due to excess wt. The Fuji 400T is in a no.1 shutter, but of no use on an 8x10 if that if being contemplated. I really like the Fuji A
because it works so well on both formats, and at almost any focal distance.

Not planning on 8x10 at this point. I would prefer to stay away from telephoto designs due to the size of the lens. I have plenty of bellows as well.

The Fuji A looks really nice, but seems to be about as common as unicorns.

I think my best bet is to sell my RD Artar in barrel, and buy either a 14" repro-claron in Compur #2 or 360mm apo-ronar in Compur #2.

[Jeff Bannow]

... and buy either a 14" repro-claron in Compur #2 or 360mm apo-ronar in Compur #2.

Anyone know if either of these lenses have filter threads?

[Mark Stahlke]

There is Schneider's Apo-Tele-Xenar 350/11 in a Copal 1 shutter. No, it's not a telephoto despite its name.

[Jim Rice]

WRT the filter threads, a $5.00 step up ring with an ID just larger than the OD of the front of the lens barrel will do the trick. Get a bag of assorted rubber bands from the drug store. You will find one small diameter one with a cross section thicker than the step up ring that will make a nice gasket for the ring-to barrel interface and will hold everything together tightly. Mash ring onto barrel with rubber band in between. Works like a charm. For Artars, I always used a red one, of course. Completely reversible too.

[vinny]

OR, get a step up ring slightly smaller than the front element diameter and stick it on with some ATG tape (rolled into a thin rope). That's what I did on my 24" artar and it worked flawlessly.

[Mark MacKenzie]

I have a Kowa Graphic 360 for sale here on the classifieds. It is f9 and in a Copal 3S. It is compared to the Computar and said to cover more than 11x14. It is also said to have been used on a 5x7 copy device. To be honest, I haven't used the lens. It was mounted on a TOYO lensboard and I looked at it on the ground glass on a 4x5 OmegaView. It seemed very sharp but wanted a whole lot of bellows. This lens has been compared to the Artar as well. There are threads discussing it, too.
It would be a less expensive option and a modern lens in a modern shutter.
Don't mean to be shamelessly self-promoting. Good luck with your search.
Mark

[Louis Pacilla]

Hey Jeff. This is why it would be a waste of good money to pay to have your barrel mounted 14" RD Artar installed into a proper shutter. The cost would far exceed what you can buy a comparable mint condition 360 process lens factory mounted in shutter.I bet it would cost a couple hundred more then what Daniel is selling his 360 APO Ronar in Copal 3

I have no connection to seller.http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?95138-FS-Rodenstock-Lens-Sale-APO-RONAR-240-300-360-mm-GERONAR-300-mm-all-in-Copal

[Jeff Bannow]

[SIZE=2]Hey Jeff. This is why it would be a waste of good money to pay to have your barrel mounted 14" RD Artar installed into a proper shutter. The cost would far exceed what you can buy a comparable mint condition 360 process lens factory mounted in shutter.I bet it would cost a couple hundred more then what Daniel is selling his 360 APO Ronar in Copal 3

Yeah, I think you're right on that.

For the moment I picked up a Symmar convertible from eBay for $74. This should tide me over until I decide which option to choose.

The new Apo-tele-xenar looks pretty nice, but a bit spendy.

[Alan Gales]

The Fuji A looks really nice, but seems to be about as common as unicorns.

I had one once but sold it. Never had a Fuji A though.

[Graybeard]

I have a 14" RD Artar that I am considering mounting into a shutter. Looks like the cost of the shutter, cleaning, and mounting will probably be $600+ though. This doesn't include the cost of lens caps (might need custom) and an adapter to allow filters to be used. By the time everything is done I could have $1000 into this, and there's no way I could recoup that cost if I decided to sell it.

Before I go through with that, I would like to look at my options. Anyone have a suggestion for a small & lightweight lens, with reasonable room for movements on 4x5?

Not really interested in a 300mm right now - too close to my 240mm. I don't think I could focus a 450mm either.

You might also consider front mounting the Artar on a less expensive shutter such as an Ilex #4 or Alphax#4 (see the S K Grimes website). Grimes charges about $85 for a simple front mount.

Even if a small amount of vignetting does occur there should be a sufficiently large image circle available for plenty of movements on a 4x5.

[Lightbender]

I used to have an RD Artar 14" f9 in an ilex #4 shutter. Great lens. Focusing was easy because the illumination was even across the screen.
(short lenses at f8 are hard to focus because the light falloff at the edges makes them very dark)
It was not too big or heavy. Sharp and contrasty. I made some test shots with a 35mm back. Not quite as good as my 210mm sironar but surprisingly good.
However, I have downsized from a zone vi to a shen hao, and could no longer focus the 360mm, so I sold it.
Dont spend $600 for a mounting.. you can probably find a nice clean example already in an ilex shutter for $300.

-Speaking of which, what camera are you using? Many have a mamimum bellows extention listed at 360mm. But at maximum extention these cameras are near useless. You cannot use any movements. The bellows pulls on the front so focussing is difficult or will shift. and the extra extention is sometimes accomplished by tilting the front standard forward (as in my shen hao).

[Graybeard]

I used to have an RD Artar 14" f9 in an ilex #4 shutter. Great lens. Focusing was easy because the illumination was even across the screen.
(short lenses at f8 are hard to focus because the light falloff at the edges makes them very dark)
It was not too big or heavy. Sharp and contrasty. I made some test shots with a 35mm back. Not quite as good as my 210mm sironar but surprisingly good.
However, I have downsized from a zone vi to a shen hao, and could no longer focus the 360mm, so I sold it.
Dont spend $600 for a mounting.. you can probably find a nice clean example already in an ilex shutter for $300.

-Speaking of which, what camera are you using? Many have a mamimum bellows extention listed at 360mm. But at maximum extention these cameras are near useless. You cannot use any movements. The bellows pulls on the front so focussing is difficult or will shift. and the extra extention is sometimes accomplished by tilting the front standard forward (as in my shen hao).

A minor advantage of a front mounted lens is that, as the lens barrel is on the front of the shutter, the shutter body acts as a short expension tube, providing a small amount of effective extension increase.

[Jeff Bannow]

-Speaking of which, what camera are you using? Many have a mamimum bellows extention listed at 360mm. But at maximum extention these cameras are near useless. You cannot use any movements. The bellows pulls on the front so focussing is difficult or will shift. and the extra extention is sometimes accomplished by tilting the front standard forward (as in my shen hao).

Thanks for the advice. I have a Chamonix 45n1 w/ universal bellows and have the extension bracket.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

The older single coated 360mm f9 APO Ronar from the late 1950s and early 1960s the smallest, lightest lens I know of in this focal length range that came in a factory mounted shutter. It is a contemporary of your Red Dot Artar and a similar design. The key advantage is the smaller (and better) shutter (Compur No. 2 vs. Ilex No. 4) and the fact that the front element is threaded for standard 46mm filters. You can buy filters in this size, or get a 46mm - 49mm or 46mm - 52mm step up ring if you have standardized on filters in one of those more common sizes. This lens only weighs about 315g - less than either the 360mm Fujinon A (465g) or new 350mm f11 Schneider APO-Tele-Xenar Compact (400g), and much less than a shutter mounted Red Dot Artar. It also takes much smaller filters (46mm) than the Fuji (58mm) or Schneider (58mm).

Coverage is plenty for 4x5 or 5x7, but not really enough for 8x10 (official image circle spec = 318mm). It is only single coated. Newer multicoated 360mm APO Ronars are readily available used, but they come in Copal No. 3 shutters, are much heavier (550g) and take larger filters (58mm). They also cost a lot more than the older, single coated version. Of course the 360mm F10 Fujinon A (~$1500 for a clean used sample) and new 350mm APO Tele-Xenar Compact ($950mm) are also considerably more expensive.

If cost was no object, the a new Schneider would probably be my first choice. Even at $950, it'a very good deal for a new large format lens of this quality and focal length. If cost is an object, I'd recommend one of the older, single coated, shutter mounted 360mm APO Ronars. Just don't buy that one on eBay for $625. Although not exactly common, this isn't a cult or collectible lens. If you're patient, you can find a clean sample in a properly working shutter for a lot less.

Kerry