B&H says Kodak XTOL has been discontinued - annyone else hear this?

[Cletus]

I know there's been lots of talk and lots of information, mis-information and rumors flying, especially where Kodak is concerned. Here's the latest I've heard:
Someone I know asked B&H and they're saying Kodak is discontinuing this developer. I just went to make an order from B&H and they're out of stock. Freestyle has it in stock and says they're getting some in soon. Might be the last batch?

Anyone else heard this? Again, with everything going on with Kodak, it's no big surprise, just trying to corroborate this news.

I've been using XTOL since....a long time, it's always been my main B&W film developer and I've never really thought about a good alternative. I use Rodinal (Adonal) from time to time, but it's not suitable for my main developer. Anyone else using XTOL and know of a good, non-Kodak equivalent? D-76 is close to XTOL in many ways, but I don't trust that will be around much longer either, or any Kodak products for that matter.

What about a good Ilford alternative? In the event this discontinuation is really happening (I wouldn't doubt it) I need to start looking for something else. I hope Ilford does what they say and stays in the B&W business!

The main reason I prefer XTOL over some others I've tried are this:
1. It's a great developer. It's been very predictable (for me) and seems to give good speed and contrast for HP5+.
2. Good working life - I use it at 1:1 and can get several "rounds" of film processed without quality loss. (You're supposed to only use it one shot diluted, but I always do two, sometimes three with good results)
3. Excellent shelf life -I mix a 5L batch at FS and store it in 1L and 500mL White Nalgene bottles. Its lasted for over a year this way. (Never had the "old" XTOL problem of quitting all of a sudden and ruining film)
4. It's relatively harmless from a health and environmental standpoint. I don't develop in Rodinal or Pyro without latex gloves, bare hands with XTOL.
5. It's cheap! One 5L batch goes a really long way for me.

I'd love to hear your suggestions on another good developer with some of these qualities. Or maybe even the recipe for XTOL? I wonder if it's easy to make from sctratch....

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Mytol is a a home brew equivalent of Xtol, and works beautifully: http://www.jackspcs.com/mytol.htm
I have also tried Instant Mytol, a simplified version of Mytol which also seems to work very well: http://www.photosensitive.ca/wp/easy-film-developers

It may well be harmless, but I wouldn't use any developer without gloves.

[RichardSperry]

I would bet there's a recipe of it in The Darkroom Cookbook.

Mine's in the other room and I'm too lazy to go check.

Or especially his Film Developing Cookbook(I need to get this one).

[Daniel Stone]

can't someone just call Kodak?

[marfa boomboom tx]

can't someone just call Kodak?


bueller? bueller? ferris bueller ?


:confused:

[Michael Graves]

Has anyone compared X-Tol to the Legacy Pro ascorbic acid developer marketed by Freestyle?

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/747716-LegacyPro-EcoPro-Ascorbic-Acid-Powder-BandW-Film-Developer-to-make-5?cat_id=301

[Sal Santamaura]

can't someone just call Kodak?I just did - (800) 242-2424, ext. 19. The best their representative could do was check a catalog dated June, 2012, which still included XTOL. I asked whether he had received any notices/announcements about it being discontinued. He answered that he usually gets those, but hadn't seen any for XTOL.

Here's what I posted two days ago on this subject at APUG:


http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1391258

At this point I'm not sure Kodak's left hand even knows that a right hand exists, much less what it's doing. I feel good about having laid in a 20-year supply of XTOL earlier this year. :)

[Tim Povlick]

Hi Cletus,

I was using Xtol and Tmax 100 / 400 films. With all the Kodak 'stuff' I switched to Ilford Delta Pro 100 and FA-1027 Film Developer from Freestyle. I've tried many different developers but like FA-1027 the best.

On a side note, it seems like Kodak announces all these discontinued products so we'll buy up years supply and they can rake in the money. Then when the buyer for the division steps in they may find the market is really depressed due to our full freezers. I plead guilt to having TMY-II stashed.

Best of Luck,
Tim

[jp]

I've converted to pyrocat-hd (formulary's liquid version). I consider it relatively safe as it's all premixed so I don' t have to deal with chemical powders airborne.

I think it's more of a normal developer than compensating developer when used with normal agitation and tmy2 film. I haven't used hp5+. I use PMK when I want real compensating. I don't have step wedges to prove that, it's just a gut feeling of how it works for me.

It meets your requirements except for working life, but it's cheap enough to discard as intended (50L for $30) It could be cheaper if I mixed it myself, but I prefer to avoid that.

[Ed Richards]

I ordered some from Adorama to see it is in stock. Their inventory control stinks, so it will be a few days before I actually know if it is going to ship. I try to keep a year ahead on Xtol stock, just to make sure I would enough time to get comfortable with a replacement. I have also been working on my stitching with my D700.:-)

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

The Film Developing Cookbook publishes the U. S. patent for Xtol

Sodium Sulfite Anhydrous 10 grams
Diethylene-triamine-pentaacetic acid, pentasodium salt (40%) 1 gram
Sodium metaborate (8 mole) 4 grams
4-Hudroxymethyl-4-methyl-1-phenyl-3-pyrazolidone 0.2 gram


Sodium sulfite anhydrous 75 gram
sodium metavisulfite 3.5 gram
sodium isoscorbate 12 grams

add the first part to 750 ml of water at room temp.
follow with part B and water to make 1 liter.

So it definitely isn't throwing a bunch of vitamin c into a liter of water!:)

[Joseph O'Neil]

Never liked Xtol myself, HC-110 is my favorite, ,but I know how you feel. Once you get into a developer, you don't want to change. A while back I obtained what should be a near lifetime supply of the stuff. In syrup form, it seems to last forever.

Don't know if it is true or not about Xtol, but my advice is stock up on any supplies you can find while you can. Who knows what Kodak products will be around 5 or 10 years from now.

[evan clarke]

When I was using Xtol all the time I became worried that I'd be in the cold if Kodak went away. It started me on home brewing developers. I quickly found many other developers I like better.

Xtol homebrew
This is an odd homebrew formula because it's mixed dry.

Part "A"

sodium sulfite** 10 g.
DTPA**1 g
sodium metaborate** 4 g
Dimezone s**.2 g

Part "B"

sodium sulfite**75 g
sodium metabisulfite**3.5 g
sodium ascorbate**12 g


Mix the dry ingredients for "A" and "B" in separate containers

Heat 750 cc water to 125 deg.
Dump part"A" in and completely dissolve
Dump in part"B" and completely dissolve
Add enough water to make i liter and you have a liter of Xtol stock!!

This works,**times will be right..

[Ed Richards]

I ordered 10 5 liter packs of Xtol from Adorama. They say they have shipped 5 and backordered 5. Unless they are rationing it, that means that is the end of their supply. They do not indicate that it is discontinued, but I have gotten notes months after a backorder notice that the product was discontinued.

[Peter De Smidt]

I like Xtol and still use it, but there are lots of excellent bw developers.

[Ed Richards]

While there are may be many good developers, I like the low toxicity and lack of smell of Xtol. I am also in the one film/one developer school so I do not waste time messing with film and developers. (Takes away from time messing with gear.) I would prefer to not switch, and I would especially prefer to not relive my early days as a chemistry lab instructor while mixing my own.:-) Since the patent has run out, I assume someone will prepackage the mix now that there is no competition from Kodak keeping the price low.

[Peter De Smidt]

Here's an alternative that I haven't used:
http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/cart/ECO-PRO-B-and-W-Film-Developer-5-Liters.html

Well, it's true that you have to mix it, but Patrick Gainer's PC-TEA developer is easy to mix, inexpensive, long lasting, and low toxicity.

PC-TEA

TEA ...................... 100 ml
Phenidone .............. 0.5 g
Ascorbic Acid ......... 9.0 g

Heat the TEA. I forget what the lowest temp that'll work is. Google is your friend. You then add the Phenidone. Mix . Add ascorbic acid. Mix. Suggested dilution is 1 + 50.

[John Kasaian]

I thought Kodak spun off thier chemicals a long time ago. If thats the case, how can they stop making what they've already stopped making? Whomever is making it is likely going to make it in a different color package--if not there's still a shipload of Xytol-oid versions out there according the my latest Freestyle catalog.

[Sevo]

I thought Kodak spun off thier chemicals a long time ago. If thats the case, how can they stop making what they've already stopped making?

Well, Kodak sold their photochemicals production to Champion years ago - but the branding, marketing and distribution remained with Kodak.

One theory would be that Champion can't be keen into growing into a major creditor of a company in Chapter 11, and don't supply Kodak with products beyond a safe credit line, creating temporary shortages.

The other would be that Kodak now try to get out of the sales side of things chemical as well (after all, why should they continue to distribute film processing chemicals after they get out of film?), and are thinning their catalogue in anticipation.

In either case, it is fairly safe to assume that Champion will continue to make the most popular products. After a brief hiatus you'll be able to get XTOL again, whether Kodak or Champion labelled - even if the latter should pull out, someone else will pick it up.

[Cletus]

I've been doing some research and it looks like Freestyle "Legacy Pro Eco" Ascorbic Acid Developer description claims this is 'just like XTOL'.

Anybody tried this developer? I wonder if it is XTOL, per Freestyle's frequent practice of relabeling original mfg's products - ala Arista Premium 400 = Kodak Tri-X (purportedly). I'm tempted to try this, but then, if XTOL is going away, the Legacy Pro product probably will too, or change to a different formula.

Anybody use Ilford ID-11? I wonder how this would work as a permanent alternative to XTOL? Ilford says it's a 'non hydroquinone' developer. I think. I'm not much of a chemist, so I dont really understand the significance of this as it relates to the final results. I just know I'm used to my normal materials and just starting to get good predictability and control with them.

I sent an email to Freestyle asking if they have any info on the future of XTOL, or what analogs they carry. Maybe it's a good time to go through the film/developer trials again, augmented by the experience I've gained since last time I did that. I might be better equipped now to evaluate the differences.

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions (and recipes), I guess we'll be able to get through this okay even if XTOL is going away soon. I'm not averse to change, I just don't like it! :)

[Gem Singer]

Phil,

Ilford ID-11 and Kodak D-76 are essentially the same formula. Both use metol and hydroquinone as their reducing agents.

Kodak XTOL is a completely different formula. It uses sodium isoascorbate and phenidone as it's reducing agents.

(See: "The Film Developing Cookbook", by S.G.Anchell and B.Troop).

[Cletus]

Thanks Gem! If anybody knows about that stuff, I know you do! Do you think the constituents of ID11/D76 are more hazardous than those of XTOL? I've tried D76 in the past and it seemed all right, I know a lot of people swear by it. I wonder if it's as safe to use bare skinned as XTOL?

I don't seem to be overly sensitive to these chemicals, but I still don't want to deliberately expose myself to unesessary hazards. I use latex with Rodinal and Pyro, not with XTOL, or stop, fixer, any of the other common stuff. Selenium toner O definitely wear gloves (and glasses!)

Thanks!

[Kodachrome25]

Not sure what the heck is going on in terms of Xtol, but I do have 50 x 5L packs of the stuff, should be set for at least a little while.

[Cletus]

Yeah I wish I had that much stockpiled! Spent too much on cameras and other gear lately to do that.

[Gem Singer]

Phil,

No need to be fearful of photo chemicals. They are hazardous if they are ingested or abused.

Familiarize yourself with the photo chemistry that the Photographer's Formulary produces.They really know their stuff.

(www.photoformulary.com).

Once you try their version of Sandy King's Pyrocat-HD in glycol, and their TF-5 Archival Rapid Fixer, you will never go back to Kodak or Ilford chemistry.

[Sal Santamaura]

...One theory would be that Champion can't be keen into growing into a major creditor of a company in Chapter 11, and don't supply Kodak with products beyond a safe credit line, creating temporary shortages...Champion already was a major Kodak creditor before the bankruptcy filing. :)


...Here's what I posted two days ago on this subject at APUG:


http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1391258...In case anyone just doesn't like clicking on links, here's what that post said:


"B&H, as well as other retailers, frequently list an item as "discontinued" when manufacturers terminate the SKU even though they're going to introduce the same product in different packaging, which will carry a different SKU. For example, single rolls of 120 Acros were discontinued, but 5-packs subsequently filled the distribution pipeline and became "new" products in the retailers' on-line listings, even though exactly the same film is involved.

In this case, I suspect that Champion, having been stiffed for quite a substantial sum by Kodak's Chapter 11 filing, is either not interested in or wants substantially more money (to cover losses and/or risk) to continue manufacturing chemistry for Kodak. If Kodak successfully contracts with one or more replacement chemistry suppliers, it might change the size, packaging or some other aspect of XTOL that would result in a different SKU.

Alternatively, perhaps all the XTOL bashing has driven volume down enough that Kodak really is discontinuing the product. If that's the case, my cache of 40 5-liter packages will be sufficient for the next 20 years. Should I still be around and kicking after that, there's always scratch-mixed D-76H to go with my freezer-stored 320TXP."

[Cletus]

Gem - It's not really a matter of being afraid of the chemicals. I just want to minimize the risk of cumulative issues, given the amount of overall time I spend with my bare hands exposed to the stuff. It's very possible that even the 'safer' chems, like XTOL (ostensibly) could have some adverse affects or sensitization over time and that's exactly what I'd prefer to avoid. I also don't care to have to use latex gloves every time I handle processing chems, they tend to be a big PITA for tray processing sheet film!

Other chemicals - or so I've read - such as Pyrogallol or the stuff in Rodinal can have serious health consequences if handled carelessly over long (or maybe even short) periods of time. I don't know enough about what the actual risks are, I'm just taking their word for it! I really do need to read up and educate myself a little better on this topic. I already shoulder enough health risk in my life as it is - as I'm sure you of all people are well aware! :)

As for Pyrocat HD, it's something I plan to try at some point in the near future, you've said enough good about it that I can't ignore. I like XTOL as my main, normal developer again, for many of the reasons I stated in my initial post.

And it works real good, too! I'm even considering learning to make it from scratch and giving that a go. I always wanted to try that anyway. I think maybe I'll pick up a copy of Anchell's FDCB and DRCB and give it a go! I could probably make myself up a lifetime supply of the stuff for a lot less than it would cost to go through the whole routine of trying every other developer out there, looking for something that works as well for me.

[Cletus]

Here's Freestyles position on XTOL:

The rumors are untrue. Xtol is still available for Kodak.

""The Legacy Pro is the equivalent to Xtol in evey way. If Kodak does discontinue the Xtol, we will have plenty of the Legacy Pro available.
The Legacy Pro is not going away."

Thank you.

Marv Keller
Manager,
Customer Service & Consumer Direct Sales

Tele: 1.800.292.6137 ext. 108 or 1.323.660.3460 ext. 108
Fax: 1.800.616.3616 or 1.323.660.4885
E-Mail: marv@freestylephoto.biz
www.freestylephoto.biz"

[Ed Richards]

Good news from Freestyle. Adorama just charged me for the second 5 of my order of 10 5 liter packs, so I assume it is flowing through the channel now. 20 packs at 200 sheets a pack should last a while. I try to shoot at least 600 4x5 sheets a year, but I have missed that the last couple of years.

Freestyle's version of Xtol seems to have a much shorter recommended developing time for Tmax 400 than does Kodak. If it really is the same, that is a great backup, and it is now cheaper by a couple of bucks.

[RichardSperry]

Cletus,

Why aren't you using nitrile gloves for your photo work?

They are cheap, safe, and readily available. Not only will they keep pyro, metol, or amidol from soaking into your skin they prevent cross contamination when you're printing. And they keep oil and dust off your film when loading and unloading. Keeps fingerprints off film when scanning or even just loading into print file sleeves.

Costco sells 2x200 boxes for $20.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/107623-progress-xtol-concentrate.html

[Renato Tonelli]

Those of you who have a stash of XTOL - how do you store it (refrigerated or not, etc.) and how certain are you that it will "keep"?

I have asked this over at APUG as well.

[Sal Santamaura]

Those of you who have a stash of XTOL - how do you store it...See the next-to-last paragraph of my recent post here:


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?4495-Ilford-Films-and-Xtol-Developer&p=922660&viewfull=1#post922660

[Renato Tonelli]

Thanks Sal.

[Cletus]

Richard -

I use latex or nitrile gloves when processing with Rodinal, Pyro, Selenium Toner and....that's about it. For me they are very uncomfortable and so I only use when I feel they're necessary, as PPE.

I know that many people use them as a matter of course, while working with ANY chemicals, but I personally don't think they're necessary for non-hazard materials. Or relatively non-hazard anyway! One of the reasons on my short list of why I like XTOL.

Gem - I thought you might like to know - I just got my copy of Anchell's FD Cookbook yesterday too! It's high time I start learning a little more about these chemicals. The possibility of XTOL going away was a wake-up call for me and I really need to educate myself a little better on this stuff, in case I do need to start "rolling my own"!

Cletus

[dachyagel]

For what it's worth, I was just at B&H and XTOL is still listed as discontinued there (Sunday morning, 9/16). I spoke to the guy in the darkroom section and he didn't expect to get any more in. Freestyle's web site says that it's out of stock and has an expected restocking date of September 19.

As a possible stopgap, I bought some Microphen -- anyone care to weigh in on a comparison of the two? (Microphen vs XTOL).

[Jim Noel]

People get overly concerned about chemicals and their cumulative effect. I have had my hands in photo chemicals for about 75 years and the doctor says my latest blood tests are amazing for a man 30 years my junior. All it takes is common sense and reasonable care. I guess my hands were in everything imaginable before people began getting so worried about such things. My high school teachers used to recognize when I had been printing because my fingernails were black from Amidol, no gloves, and i hate tongs.. In fact, I didn't begin using gloves for anything other than the various pyros until I was forced to when I began teaching at a community college 23 years ago.
Reasonable care is the motto. I wash my hands regularly while working and I know enough about chemistry to counteract the effects of anything I am likely to put my hands in. Today I highly recommend that students wear nitrile gloves adn I wear them more often than in the past, but I don't worry about it. At 83, I don't havce enough time left to worry about such things.


Gem - It's not really a matter of being afraid of the chemicals. I just want to minimize the risk of cumulative issues, given the amount of overall time I spend with my bare hands exposed to the stuff. It's very possible that even the 'safer' chems, like XTOL (ostensibly) could have some adverse affects or sensitization over time and that's exactly what I'd prefer to avoid. I also don't care to have to use latex gloves every time I handle processing chems, they tend to be a big PITA for tray processing sheet film!

Other chemicals - or so I've read - such as Pyrogallol or the stuff in Rodinal can have serious health consequences if handled carelessly over long (or maybe even short) periods of time. I don't know enough about what the actual risks are, I'm just taking their word for it! I really do need to read up and educate myself a little better on this topic. I already shoulder enough health risk in my life as it is - as I'm sure you of all people are well aware! :)

As for Pyrocat HD, it's something I plan to try at some point in the near future, you've said enough good about it that I can't ignore. I like XTOL as my main, normal developer again, for many of the reasons I stated in my initial post.

And it works real good, too! I'm even considering learning to make it from scratch and giving that a go. I always wanted to try that anyway. I think maybe I'll pick up a copy of Anchell's FDCB and DRCB and give it a go! I could probably make myself up a lifetime supply of the stuff for a lot less than it would cost to go through the whole routine of trying every other developer out there, looking for something that works as well for me.

[Sal Santamaura]

...All it takes is common sense and reasonable care...And having done a very good job of picking your parents. :D

[Gem Singer]

Hey Jim,

I'm only 82, and I totally agree with you.

Not enough time left to worry about trivial matters.

Hands in photo chemicals not as bad as drinking photo chemicals. They taste terrible.

[Sal Santamaura]

Available again at B&H -- 262 5-liter packages in stock as this is typed:


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/124564-REG/Kodak_8751752_Xtol_Developer_Powder_for.html

No change in Kodak item number and no explanation of why it was previously "discontinued" and is back now. Perhaps Kodak did move to a different supplier than Champion and just got in the first batch? Pure speculation.