110mm Super Symma Hazer—Schneider Drops the Ball

[Richard Wasserman]

I just had an interesting conversation with Jeff at Badger Graphics. I have a 110mm Super Symmar XL that has developed internal haze. He informed me that Schneider will only honor their lifetime warranty for 5 years when the issue is haze developing—I was needless to say, surprised and disappointed as I bought mine more than 5 years ago. This is why Badger no longer sells the 80 and 110 Super Symmars. I'll give John Van Stelton a call later to see if he can clean the lens.

[E. von Hoegh]

I just had an interesting conversation with Jeff at Badger Graphics. I have a 110mm Super Symmar XL that has developed internal haze. He informed me that Schneider will only honor their lifetime warranty for 5 years when the issue is haze developing—I was needless to say, surprised and disappointed as I bought mine more than 5 years ago. This is why Badger no longer sells the 80 and 110 Super Symmars. I'll give John Van Stelton a call later to see if he can clean the lens.

Wow. First the Schneideritus - although that is a cosmetic issue - now haze, which is most certailny not a cosmetic issue.

[Frank Petronio]

What causes the haze and it is the same cause/effect as older Leitz lenses and such? I thought it was the cements off-gassing but what else is responsible?

I hope that Focal Point cleans it up OK at least but shame on Schneider for dropping the ball on this.

[Richard Wasserman]

Jeff said that Schneider has had conflicting reasons for the haze. Their current position seems to be that an adhesive they use reacts with some, but not all air and causes the haze. Since they cannot control the air where the lens is used, they refuse to honor the warranty. Certainly doesn't sound right to me (or Jeff). I never expected Schneider to act like this.

[Bill_1856]

I wonder how many of our LF manufacturers are just hanging on my their toenails? (In this instance, Schneider.)

[timparkin]

Has anybody else noticed this and does it have any effect on photos?

[Bob Salomon]

Have you had any interesting conversations about this with Schneider themselves?

[E. von Hoegh]

Has anybody else noticed this and does it have any effect on photos?

Haze will certainly have an effect, reduced contrast and as the haze gets worse the sharpness will eventually suffer.

[Richard Wasserman]

The plot thickens. I called Schneider in New Jersey and was told that Badger is not an authorized dealer in the US. The rep I spoke to did not know where Badger buys their lenses, whether from the factory or elsewhere, but Schneider US is not involved and therefore can't help me. He did say that they no longer offer a lifetime warranty on lenses—I think because of this problem. He did say that if this problem occurs with a lens with a lifetime warranty, and the owner has the warranty card they will honor it.

I will try to have it cleaned, before pursuing it with the factory. I do not want to be without this lens any longer than absolutely necessary as I am doing a long-term project and it is my most used lens.

[Peter De Smidt]

Richard,

I would tell Jeff what the Schneider rep said. Perhaps he can contact the Schneider home office. (I've known Jeff for years. He's a very stand-up guy.) If that doesn't work for some reason, you should call the Schneider home office in Germany yourself. All you need is one of their people to agree with you, which they should! I would pursue the factory option before paying to have it cleaned.

[timparkin]

Haze will certainly have an effect, reduced contrast and as the haze gets worse the sharpness will eventually suffer.

Is this a theoretical 'haze affects contrast and sharpness' or an actual 'I have a schneider symmar with the aforementioned haze and I can't see any effect in images'?

I only as as there are many different effects you can see on a lens when looked at an angle that don't show in images.

Tim

[E. von Hoegh]

Is this a theoretical 'haze affects contrast and sharpness' or an actual 'I have a schneider symmar with the aforementioned haze and I can't see any effect in images'?

I only as as there are many different effects you can see on a lens when looked at an angle that don't show in images.

Tim

The haze does show in images, more in some lighting than others. How much loss of contrast you can tolerate before it becomes troublesome is a different matter. I have an old convertible Symmar that has slight haze, if I had a pristine example to compare with it I could tell you how much effect it has. The images are still acceptable though, and someday I will disassemble it, de-haze it, and remove the Schneideritus as well.

[Frank Petronio]

Haze in old Leica lenses gives them their character according to lore, it does soften some lenses up for portraiture nicely. I had a ~50-year old Symmar that was nice for people.

[E. von Hoegh]

Haze in old Leica lenses gives them their character according to lore, it does soften some lenses up for portraiture nicely. I had a ~50-year old Symmar that was nice for people.

One of my friends had a Leitz Xenon f:1.5 (IIRC) lens which was so badly hazed it was useless. Cleaning it up made it into quite a nice lens, a lot like an uncoated Sonnar (which it was a clone of) I had on a Contax II.

I can do without any character haze may add to my lenses.

[Richard Wasserman]

I never noticed any problems from the haze. I only found it when I was outside and the sun was shining into the lens which made the haze quite apparent. It is a fairly small amount of haze, but I assume it will keep getting worse. I would rather not take any chances, and will get it cleaned.

[Dan Fromm]

One of my friends had a Leitz Xenon f:1.5 (IIRC) lens which was so badly hazed it was useless. Cleaning it up made it into quite a nice lens, a lot like an uncoated Sonnar (which it was a clone of) I had on a Contax II.

I can do without any character haze may add to my lenses.

E., check your references. IIRC, the Xenon is a 6/4 double Gauss type that Schneider licensed from TTH. The Sonnar is, well, a Sonnar. Bertele design. Meniscus, coupla cemented elements, diaphragm, more cemented elements. Six air-glass interfaces. Not a 6/4 double Gauss.

[Heroique]

People here have, in the past, reported haze inexplicably developing in the 110mm XL, and Badger would accept them back for delivery to Schneider – who, in turn, would correct the problem, and send the lens back to Badger.

Badger would not charge for this service; moreover, they’d offer it no matter how far back the lens was purchased.

This no-cost service usually surprised me, for my understanding is that Badger sold this and other lenses as “grey market” items. Certainly the new lenses I’ve purchased from Badger – the 110mm and the Fuji A 240mm – did not come w/ lifetime warranty cards. This would seem to confirm Richard’s finding (post #9) that they are not an authorized U.S. dealer, even if their excellent service would seem to indicate otherwise.

[Frank Petronio]

Even if it's Grey the parent company still warranties the item... you just have the risk, expense, and delay of international shipping.

[Heroique]

Yes, and that makes me believe Badger was either picking-up the shipping costs, or more likely, piggy-backing the lenses in their regular, periodic shipments to and from Schneider.

It sounds to me that Badger has been going out of their way to please us, or perhaps they enjoyed a special arrangement with the German boys. In any case, loss of the lifetime warranty (on haze) is unexpected & unhappy news from Schneider.


Schneider’s current position seems to be that an adhesive they use reacts with some, but not all air and causes the haze. Since they cannot control the air where the lens is used, they refuse to honor the warranty.

If true, Schneider is in sore need of help managing & explaining their warranties! ;^)

“It’s not our fault you’re using the lens in air it wasn’t designed for.”

[Steve Goldstein]

I sent a lens to Schneider in CA a few years ago for internal cleaning (not a 110, and it had very mild fungus, not haze). The cost was $90. Just FYI.

[Ed Richards]

Wonder if it makes sense to keep a good one in a sealed bag? Maybe with a desiccant?

[Tim Povlick]

I had the same problem with a 110 purchased used. The haze was difficult to notice because of the shape of the lens. A friend also had problems with the 80mm. We tried bake / vacuum to clear it but this had not effect. We directly contacted Schneider in Germany and they said to return them for repair. The US shop in California was not equipped to do this work. They Fed-Ex'ed overnight the fixed lens which now had a new front elements. Their service was stellar. This was about 5 years ago. So far no problems. I would think / hope they have this fixed. I also have a new 480mm from them that hasn't had any problems and is a great lens.

_ .. --
Tim

[Chris Wong]

I had the haze problem on an 80 mm that I bought from Jeff at Badger Graphics. I had a local pro repair shop clean the haze off but the haze reappeared within a year. The haze problem occurred about 5-6 years ago. I contacted Jeff and he said to send it in. It took a couple of months to get it or another one back. I was never informed on what they did and since I didn't note the serial number when I sent it in to Jeff I don't know whether it was replaced or cleaned.

[Ed Richards]

Having just checked mine, I can report that it does not affect all of them.

[Richard Wasserman]

It occurred to me to take the lens to Bob Watkins at Precision Camera Works who is local to me. He was able to remove the haze without any undue effort and it is now clean and clear. I just hope it stays that way.

[Kevin Crisp]

This does just seem to happen sometimes, and repeatedly. I have some G Clarons that have required internal cleaning several times. A Rodenstock wide angle twice. A Nikkor once. My 110 Symmar is fine going on 10+ years though.

[E. von Hoegh]

Wonder if it makes sense to keep a good one in a sealed bag? Maybe with a desiccant?

If you live in a damp environment that's a good practice with any lens or other piece of gear. Just remember to dessicate your dessicant before bagging the widget.

[Bob Salomon]

If you live in a damp environment that's a good practice with any lens or other piece of gear. Just remember to dessicate your dessicant before bagging the widget.

And make sure that that plastic bag doesn't emit plastcisers. If it does you will never get them off the glass.

[E. von Hoegh]

And make sure that that plastic bag doesn't emit plastcisers. If it does you will never get them off the glass.

That's a good point. I've used ziplock food bags, sometimes for years, without trouble from plasticisers. Yet.

Some small items could be placed in a widemouth glass jar with dessicant, I keep button cells like this in the fridge changing the dessicant regularly.

[karl french]

The person I talked to at Schneider's service center in California said the lens needed to 'breathe." Sealing the lens up was against his recommendation.

[E. von Hoegh]

The person I talked to at Schneider's service center in California said the lens needed to 'breathe." Sealing the lens up was against his recommendation.

I rather doubt the lens needs to "breathe" spore laden air at 100% relative humidity, or any other kinds of dubious contaminated atmosphere.

[karl french]

So, you're taking pictures in a 'clean room?"

"Dubious contaminated atmosphere." That sounds a lot like outside, or even inside a studio.

I'm very careful with my gear, but there's not much point in having it if you are afraid to use it. Generally those lenses don't last long with me.

I was concerned about the haze issue when I had a couple different Super Symmar XL's but figured there wasn't much I could do to stop it if it happened since no one really seems to know what causes it. So I made the images I wan't to make where ever that happened to be, including transporting the lenses in my bag to the coast and the desert.

[E. von Hoegh]

If you live in a damp environment that's a good practice with any lens or other piece of gear. Just remember to dessicate your dessicant before bagging the widget.

My original post regarding bagging lenses.

[Ed Richards]

Having had stuff ruined by plasticizers, I retract any comments about putting lenses in bag. Mine will stay in class nylon lens cases and photobackpacker cases. It must be just selected lenses or a serial number run - if it was just atmosphere, Baton Rouge ought to be doing them in.:-)

[E. von Hoegh]

Having had stuff ruined by plasticizers, I retract any comments about putting lenses in bag. Mine will stay in class nylon lens cases and photobackpacker cases. It must be just selected lenses or a serial number run - if it was just atmosphere, Baton Rouge ought to be doing them in.:-)

Ed, do you remember what sort of plastic you had the trouble with?

[E. von Hoegh]

E., check your references. IIRC, the Xenon is a 6/4 double Gauss type that Schneider licensed from TTH. The Sonnar is, well, a Sonnar. Bertele design. Meniscus, coupla cemented elements, diaphragm, more cemented elements. Six air-glass interfaces. Not a 6/4 double Gauss.

Well, as I typed "IIRC". Is there a Leitz lens which is a Sonnar clone, or is this memory completely corrupted? I do know I had a Sonnar on a Contax II.

[Sevo]

Well, as I typed "IIRC". Is there a Leitz lens which is a Sonnar clone,

No. That is, Nikon, Zeiss and many others have made Sonnar type lenses in Leica thread mount. But Leitz themselves never did.

[E. von Hoegh]

Thanks Sevo.

[seawolf66]

I would not touch it, I would find the warranty card and send it to them and no place else
Because you will null and void your warranty by having some else try and the factory see that you have lost :



The plot thickens. I called Schneider in New Jersey and was told that Badger is not an authorized dealer in the US. The rep I spoke to did not know where Badger buys their lenses, whether from the factory or elsewhere, but Schneider US is not involved and therefore can't help me. He did say that they no longer offer a lifetime warranty on lenses—I think because of this problem. He did say that if this problem occurs with a lens with a lifetime warranty, and the owner has the warranty card they will honor it.

I will try to have it cleaned, before pursuing it with the factory. I do not want to be without this lens any longer than absolutely necessary as I am doing a long-term project and it is my most used lens.

[Drew Wiley]

Nylon cases and packs, esp cordura, can be just about the worst thing conceivable for
outgassing phathlates, urethanes, and plasticizers, esp in these days of Chinese mfg. You want polyethylene bag or bubble wrap etc. Anything but vinyl or coated nylon. Lots of so-called "rubber" cushioning can be a blend of all kinds of junk - so unless you know exactly
what it is, don't count on that to be safe either!

[Cor]

I have this older 300mm Symmar convertible which is my prime 8*10 lens. About 2 years ago after shooting misty snowscapes I saw internal haze inside both the front and the back elements. Since there was almost no contrast (the over cast sky and the snow functioned as a huge reflector) I could see no advert effects on the prints, but I did not like the haze. And AFAIk it had not been caused by the temperature differences or condensation

So 2 weeks later I opened both elements from the front and took the front groups out and very carefully cleaned the haze (it seemed almost oily sticky stuff) with 100% ethanol and finished with lens cleaning fluid. Let it dry thoroughly, removed as much dust as possible, and placed the groups back in. These groups seat on rings, and although a tight fit, came out en went in smooth. So I assumed that they were properly seated again. Images shot afterwards do seem to confirm proper sharpness (I only contact print my 8*10 negatives though).

Thus far the lens is still clear (I will check tonight again..;-)..)

Perhaps an option for ones older lenses were warranty in not there, and cleaning might be to costly,

best,

Cor