McAllister radial drive petzval

[cyberjunkie]

I love petzvals, both as collector's items and as photographic tools.
I have always considered the radial drive as the most elegant solution, compared to the common tangential rack and pinion.
I badly wanted one... and now it's on its way to my home :)

The lens is engraved McAllister NY.
I am attaching a few pictures from the auction.
The vendor wrote that McAllister was one of the american vendors of Darlot lenses, therefore suggesting that this lens was made by Darlot, in Paris.
I am very dubious about that.
I am not an expert, in particular i'm quite ignorant about 19th century lenses, but i have never seen a french made radial drive petzval.
I always thought that the radial drive was definitely an american feature.
Then i did a quick Google search and found a reference to a radial drive E. Francais lens (the name says it all..not a USA brand!), and possibly also Jamin/Darlot ones.
Am i missing something?
Any clue about the maker of my lens?

[CCHarrison]

McAllister was a long running family making and selling optics but especially known for magic lanterns... see 1885 ad below

McAllister moved to NY in 1865 (from Philly), so we know the lens is no earlier than that. Definitely a ML lens.

Dan

80186

80185

[cyberjunkie]

Thanks Dan.
You have a wealth of documentation about 19th century USA lenses!
So McAllister was also a maker, not just a reseller.
You seem to suggest that the lens could have been made in-house, and not purchased from another maker (european or american).
Definitely it's magic lantern lens. No waterhouse slot and no sunshade.
Not a big problem, but i am afraid that the focal length could be too short for 5x7"/13x18cm.
In my limited experience the older projection petzvals have rather short focals, even some big ones. Long, slow ones were more common in the first half of the 20th century.
Am i right about that?

After a more thorough search, i could find no lenses with the same aesthetical features. America made radial drive petzvals have a round attachment for the focusing knob.
I found no pictures of a squared radial drive attachment.

[goamules]

...
After a more thorough search, i could find no lenses with the same aesthetical features. America made radial drive petzvals have a round attachment for the focusing knob.
I found no pictures of a squared radial drive attachment.

Very early CC Harrison radial drives had a square drive attachment. But there were also other types of optics, like early telescopes, and projector lenses like yours, that had radial focus knobs. I don't think you can determine a manufacturer for your projector lens by comparing features of photographic camera lenses. But my guess is McAllister made the brasswork them self.

[CCHarrison]

Just for clarity (and trying to make a long story short), in the 1850's, it appears one firm (Levi Chapman?) made the barrels for most New York made lenses and another firm (Optician) would have made/ground/supplied the lenses. Harrison didnt make barrels or tubes as they were sometimes called, he supplied and ground the glass. The square drive Garrett refers to was on the market in 1852/53 and was on found on various lenses with different makers/sellers name on them, supporting one firm was supplying the majority of barrels... Given later HBH and Harrison lense that have barrels that are identical also supports this notion.

The square drive on your lens is different than the '52 square - at least the screws are different. See attached images of a Gardner, Harrison & Co (took over from WH Lewis) marked lens with a square drive and a CC Harrison lens with square drive. lenses with this square drive.

Dan

80207


80210

[goamules]

Wow Dan, that Gardner would be a nice one to have! I spotted a Lewis once, but it was gone before I could get back to get it. But I've got a few uncommon ones.

[cyberjunkie]

Thanks again Dan!
The knobs and the screws look perfectly identical to those in my lens.
That seems to confirm that there was a certain level of standardization, with a single hardware maker providing barrels/parts to different lensmakers.
I had already noticed that HB&H and Harrison petzvals have identical radial drive parts.
AFAIK french and british brands used the same "outsourcing" strategy: a network of different workshop was used to manufacture different parts, that were later assembled in a complete camera/lens.
I guess that an high degree of customization was available, upon request of the client.

I am starting to feel a little proud of myself :)
Two experienced forum users seem to confirm my initial impression (which was based on no solid knowledge).
Contrary to the claim of the vendor, probably the lens is not Darlot's, nor french.
This forum is truly an invaluable tool, which allows to share bits of photographic culture, even to those who, by birth, never had the chance to touch or see photographic equipments made nearly 150 years ago, on the other side of the ocean, and which never had large diffusion in the old continent.
I especially appreciate some of the most experienced users, who are sharing their knowledge in a friendly way, with liberality and with no vested interests.
I am sure there are other forum users who feel exactly the same.
I think my THANK YOU is also theirs.

[Two23]

I think I saw that lens on eBay last month. He listed it as a "rack & pinion," and I sent him an email telling him it was actually a radial, and I thought it was a projection lens due to no shade and no slot. I did consider bidding on it.


Kent in SD

[Steven Tribe]

Although Darlot appears to have supplied his agents (like B.French) and "re-engravers" (like Marion) with complete brass/glass assemblies, there is no reason why he may not have supplied people like McAllister with lens glass sets.

- Darlot could increase volume in Paris and circumvent foreign agents' contracts.
- Mc Allister could provide a style which was more appealing to American fashions.

The GG lens edge will be worth a check for pencil/ink clues.

[eddie]

There were many radial drive european petzval lenses. I sold a couple of e francais petzval lenses recently that were radial drives.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?85431-FS-Two-Petzval-Lenses-1-radial-drive&highlight=francais

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?83853-16-inch-f4-5-E-Francais-Radial-Drive-Petzval-Lens&highlight=francais

[CCHarrison]

Keep in mind that E Francais lenses were heavily imported into this country and sold by Queen & Co. out of NY. I am betting there is a connection between this fact and the fact that your lenses had a Radial Drive which is an "American" feature.

Best
Dan

[Steven Tribe]

This is a bit off at a tangent(!) but the second of Eddie's sold Francais Petzvals has a very low and stamped number, rather than the usual engraved number in the 10,000 usual range. The American importers required (or added) a serial number?

[cyberjunkie]

I think I saw that lens on eBay last month. He listed it as a "rack & pinion," and I sent him an email telling him it was actually a radial, and I thought it was a projection lens due to no shade and no slot. I did consider bidding on it.


Kent in SD

I think it's the same lens.
Still waiting for the parcel, it was posted with some delay...
I had two reasons for bidding:
1) i have many petzvals, but none is with radial drive
2) i saw a chance to buy one for quite cheap
So it was, my max bid was a couple dollars over the winning price.
I'll see if the FL is too short.
You never know with projection petzvals, some are slow and long, other are a little faster, but are too short for anything but a 120 back.
I have an early Isco petzval, which is a lot faster than what you would expect, thus making it unusable with 9x12/4x5".





Although Darlot appears to have supplied his agents (like B.French) and "re-engravers" (like Marion) with complete brass/glass assemblies, there is no reason why he may not have supplied people like McAllister with lens glass sets.

- Darlot could increase volume in Paris and circumvent foreign agents' contracts.
- Mc Allister could provide a style which was more appealing to American fashions.

The GG lens edge will be worth a check for pencil/ink clues.


The first thing i do when i get a petzval is disassembling the lens (for cleaning), and have a look at the signatures on the edge of the elements.
That's how i found that a big, very fast projection petzval, supposedly french (my ignorance), was in fact an early Voigtlander (Wien und Braunshweig), made before the Projectos, for which i found no reference.
I will post a new thread with "Voigtlander" in the title, instead of reviving the old thread... as soon a i have the time and the determination to reopen the lens.
The lens barrel has bad threads, and quite loose at their extremes, therefore it's very easy to crossthread when you try to re-mount the cells.
The lens came with reversed configuration (achromat at the back), but the cells are different, can't be exchanged.
At first i thought that the elements can't be swapped between the two cells, but i must check again because i can be wrong.
What's for sure, is that the lens has the front cell (with the lens shade screwed on top of it!) with the two separate glasses, and that nothing reveals a misconfiguration (no rattling glasses, rings fit like gloves, etc).
Definitely a very interesting lens.





There were many radial drive european petzval lenses. I sold a couple of e francais petzval lenses recently that were radial drives.



I don't know if there are so many.
At least i found very little about them on the Web.
I remember a few occurrences of E. Francais objectives, plus another one, which i don't remember at the moment.
All the pictures i found, including your two Francais petzvals, had different hardware.
The two pictures posted by Dan evidence an almost identical radial drive hardware, thus it's very likely that the barrel was made by a brasswork workshop located in the same area.
Probably the glasses were ground in NY, but it seems that there is no solid evidence about it.

I thank you all.
There is so much to learn, and this is a wonderful place to enrich one's knowledge.

[Jim C.]

The first thing i do when i get a petzval is disassembling the lens (for cleaning)....

For the life of me I can't figure out how the radial drive works, if you ever get around to disassembling the lens again
I'd love to see pictures of the workings ( unless a forum member has a picture of the mech already ).

[CCHarrison]

You can see a wreck of a Holmes, Booth & Haydens lens on ebay with the square radial. Note serial number puts this one around 1854. In my studies, it appears the NY maker of brass barrels (Chapman?) used square drives for a few years 1852-1854. While Cyberjunkie's drive is similiar, its doesnt have the same screws as far as I can tell. See http://www.ebay.com/itm/170908081753?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

80434

Dan

[cyberjunkie]

Yes Dan, the screws look different.
I am not 100% sure though, as the picture was taken at about 45 degrees, a lateral picture would be much bette.
The pictures of my McAllister, and the two pictures you posted (CC Harrison and Gardner) show the same kind of screws, with a raised head.
The knobs look to be more or less the same in all early examples of radial drive USA petzvals.

IF the production of square attachment radial drive hardware was suspended before the end of the 1850 decade... well, that lens could even be the oldest i own :)
Of course older hardware could have been used for some time, after the demise of the old configuration.
Slow projection petzvals were much cheaper than faster ones with big glasses. The cost of the brass hardware was marginal, but i guess that the leftovers of the old design were cheaper than the new style barrels.
Even with a large stock of the old hardware, common sense would suggest that the McAllister was made within a reasonable amount of time, from the dates you report.

Thanks again for the details.

[goamules]

Yes Dan, the screws look different....IF the production of square attachment radial drive hardware was suspended before the end of the 1850 decade... well, that lens could even be the oldest i own :)....


CJ, to me, your lens was made much later than these classics we are comparing too. Square mount radial drives were only "suspended" in the few American makers that even made camera lenses, because they all went out of business by the 1860s. For some reason, after that time, almost all started importing British and French lenses. However, I've seen several uses of radial drives on microscopes, telescopes, and projector lenses that I know were made in the 1880s-1890s. Yours is much more similar to them.

Notice the flat knurling on your knob, and how it appears pressed onto the shaft. The early American knobs had a dual row of rounded knurling. Also the square knob mounts had a flat surface, not curved like yours. Take a look at one of my lenses below:

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4074/4935022714_4c28398969_z.jpg
Late 1860s (probable) Willard

I have studied, held, and owned MANY radial drive American lenses, and other than the latest Morrison ones, and some NY Optical ones, they all had rounded knurling on the knobs. I do not believe your lens is earlier than the 1870s. The radial drive was used off and on until probably 1900, but usually for cheaper optics than camera lenses.

[goamules]

Late Anthony catalog, mid 1880s just to give you some other makers using radials (and similar locking knobs) late:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8179/7985796861_5f0e46ffd8_z.jpg

Larger (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8179/7985796861_3168e14bca_h.jpg)

[CCHarrison]

I agree with Garrett and if you look at my first response, McAllister didnt move to NY until 1865. So it cant be earlier than that and it certainly looks late 1870's or beyond

PS - Garrett, the Anthony and Darlot in the illustration are not radial drives. Those screws just clamp the barrel down in place - friction fit, not drives. Not sure on the Beck, never owned one...but I do have the Darlot and Anthony lenses 3 feet from me as I type.

Dan

[cyberjunkie]

CJ, to me, your lens was made much later than these classics we are comparing too. Square mount radial drives were only "suspended" in the few American makers that even made camera lenses, because they all went out of business by the 1860s. For some reason, after that time, almost all started importing British and French lenses. However, I've seen several uses of radial drives on microscopes, telescopes, and projector lenses that I know were made in the 1880s-1890s. Yours is much more similar to them.

Notice the flat knurling on your knob, and how it appears pressed onto the shaft. The early American knobs had a dual row of rounded knurling. Also the square knob mounts had a flat surface, not curved like yours. Take a look at one of my lenses below:

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4074/4935022714_4c28398969_z.jpg
Late 1860s (probable) Willard

I have studied, held, and owned MANY radial drive American lenses, and other than the latest Morrison ones, and some NY Optical ones, they all had rounded knurling on the knobs. I do not believe your lens is earlier than the 1870s. The radial drive was used off and on until probably 1900, but usually for cheaper optics than camera lenses.


Probably you are right about the production years, but the knob is the same.

[goamules]

Probably you are right about the production years, but the knob is the same.

If you mean compared to my Willard, it is not the same as all. Differences: Straight knurling vs angled (though I notice Dan's very early square base has straight - I'll have to check one of mine), knob pressed into shaft vs screw held, flat face of edge near knurling vs sharp transition, shaft tube straight vs a fillet, curved, square knob plate vs flat round, modern screws vs highhat screws.... on and on.