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Dan Fromm
6-Sep-2012, 05:16
Seen on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Goerz-VC-Dagor-10-1-2-In-270mm-/120981978846?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item1c2b167ede The listing’s text refers to Goerz Pittsburgh.

The same seller offers a 50/4 Dagor SL: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Goerz-Dagor-SL-50mm-f-4-/120981985494?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item1c2b1698d6

Some searching turned up Contraves-Goerz, located in Pittsburgh, Pa.

More searching found http://books.google.com/books?id=yIsaeSTlJgUC&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=kollmorgen+%22goerz+inland%22&source=bl&ots=XzjNIusjiB&sig=GBaf90-dNBLZNVNl0DsOxqW_mdk&hl=en#v=onepage&q=kollmorgen%20%22goerz%20inland%22&f=false which has this text:

In 1964 Mr. Colker and two associates purchased the Goerz Optical Company of Inwood, New York, a transaction financed by Pittsburgh industrialist Henry Hillman. In 1960 Goerz Optical was merged with the Kollmorgen Corporation and Mr. Colker assumed the role of President and later Chairman of the Board of Contraves Goerz Corporation, a subsidiary of a Swiss conglomerate, Oerlikon Buehrle Holding.

Under his direction, the company purchased the Goerz-Inland Systems division from Kollmorgen …

About Kollmorgen’s acquisition of Goerz: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1982&dat=19681118&id=I1tGAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TCUNAAAAIBAJ&pg=3282,3546918

So Schneider didn’t get all of Goerz from Kollmorgen.

Oh, and by the way, does anyone know what an f/10 VC-Dagor is? 50/4 Dagor SL?

E. von Hoegh
6-Sep-2012, 06:59
At the very end of the last incarnation of Goerz before Schneider, they were talking of releasing a "Super Dagor" lens to be available in two series, SV and SL - infinity and close ratio work being the difference, f5.6 for the LF versions. This is all I remember, but there's a chance I can find the article from 1970 or so that mentioned it. There was a photo with the article credited as being made with a 6" f:5.6 Super Dagor S?.

When I worked at a machine shop in the late 1980s we made a fairly complex injection nozzle for Contraves-Goerz, used I believe for injection molding styrofoam something-or-others.

David Lindquist
6-Sep-2012, 07:43
Just to confirm Dan, did you mean to type "1969" rather than "1960" in this sentence?

"In 1960 Goerz Optical was merged with the Kollmorgen Corporation and Mr. Colker assumed the role of President and later Chairman of the Board of Contraves Goerz Corporation, a subsidiary of a Swiss conglomerate, Oerlikon Buehrle Holding."

Thank you for this posting. The 1969 acquisition date is consistent with two Goerz price lists I have, one dated 10/10/67 is headed Goerz Optical Company, Inc and the next newest dated 8/1/70 is labeled "Photographic Products Div. Goerz Optical Company, Inc., A Subsidiary of Kollmorgen" The 1967 price list gives an address of 461 Doughty Blvd., Inwood L.I., the 1970 price list an address of 369 Willis Ave., Mineola N.Y. I wonder if the "Goerz-Inland Systems Division" had nothing to do with optics?

In Bob Schwalberg's history of Goerz in the Jan 1972 issue of Popular Photography he describes the "SL" and "SV" "Super Dagors"as f/5.6 lenses that "will be a modification of the standard Dagor design in which the positive meniscus third lens in each cell is air spaced instead of cemented." He further says the "SL" will be for "close-in reproduction" and the "SV" for "a conventional infinity to about 10 focal lengths range." This article doesn't have an example of a photograph made with one of these.

David

E. von Hoegh
6-Sep-2012, 07:50
"will be a modification of the standard Dagor design in which the positive meniscus third lens in each cell is air spaced instead of cemented."

In other words, a Plasmat. That's funny! They're cribbing a design by Paul Rudolph from 1918 (and known then as an "airspaced Dagor") and implying it's new. That isn't the article I'm thinking of, but the information is almost the same and it is from the correct timeframe.

Dan Fromm
6-Sep-2012, 08:06
Thanks for the correction, David. Yes, 1969 is right, 1960 is wrong.

Re the SL, f/4 is fast for a plasmat type.

For me the big surprise was that when Goerz finally died the pieces went in several directions.

Jan Pedersen
6-Sep-2012, 17:40
Does this air spaced Dagor not have similarities to what became a Schneider G-Claron? If that is the case the lens was already designed before Schneider took over.

Dan Fromm
6-Sep-2012, 17:48
Jan, all plasmat types are similar. So what?

Early Symmars were dagor types. Early G-Clarons were dagor types. All dagor types are similar too. So what?

Later Symmars are plasmats. Later G-Clarons are plasmats. So what?

There's a silly coincidence hiding under every bed. Used to be a Communist. I'm not sure we've gained much.

E. von Hoegh
7-Sep-2012, 06:51
Does this air spaced Dagor not have similarities to what became a Schneider G-Claron? If that is the case the lens was already designed before Schneider took over.

The airspaced Dagor/Plasmat was designed in 1918, as I pointed out in post #4. Schneider was already making tne Plasmat type Symmar when they took Goerz over, and had been making it since the 1950s.

Billinpgh
8-Sep-2012, 07:08
Hi, I am the seller of the 50 mm Dagor Sl and the 10 1/2 in VC Dagor and hope I can help with a little of the Goerz History. It is complicated and involves childhood memories that need verify. My father partnered with Leo Colker and Joe Kalla (sp?) when they left American Optical in the mid-1960's to form Goerz, Pittsburgh division. They concentrated on large optical projects for NASA, but I remember as a teenager seeing them test other lenses on the bench. Whether any of them were produced in Pgh, I don't know. When NASA spending was cut back, the business had to shift. I'm not sure if the above lenses were experiments. I haven't found any evidence of production. I have inherited a number of things that are curiosities. My father had a great love for tinkering with optics and was probably happiest designing one of kind lenses that overcame particular problems. Kollmorgan's bread and butter was and continues to be periscopes. My father took early retirement rather than move to Inwood NY and be a part of that reshuffling in 1971.

E. von Hoegh
8-Sep-2012, 07:48
Does this air spaced Dagor not have similarities to what became a Schneider G-Claron? If that is the case the lens was already designed before Schneider took over.

I was thinking of this last night. I'm pretty sure that the G-Clarons in production were Dagor types at the time Schneider took over. They switched to Plasmat type G-Clarons sometime in the mid/late 70s. Schneider recently ressurected the Dagor type lens in the 550mm XXL lenses.

Jim Galli
8-Sep-2012, 16:32
I can add to the fun. We are still using legacy tracking mounts made by Contraves of Switzerland out where I work. They have an optical section made by Kern. Drive mechanisms made in part with Kollmorgen products (drive motors). So, somewhere I've got old crates with labels on them that have Contraves, Kollmorgen, Goerz, all mixed up together happily. But I repeat, the optics in ours are the product of Kern, who also at one point had a connection to Goerz via Schneider. Sounds like an orgy. Everybody was in bed together in that era, or so it seems. Who's y'ur daddy?

The lenses on the tracking mounts are + or - 1500 mm focus. We aren't NASA....but we ARE in the desert and drive vehicles with guvvy plates.

Cheshire
30-Jun-2013, 04:19
Sorry to be so late to this thread, but thought I could help a bit since I worked at Goerz in Pittsburgh during 1970.

Goerz had two very different businesses. First, their lines of view and process camera lenses, most of which in 1970 were being manufactured in Mineola, LI, NY. Second, in Pittsburgh they made mainly large rate tables, i.e. test equipment for inertial guidance systems. In this, Contraves was a local competitor. I personally was working with others in Pittsburgh at Goerz on a project for NASA, the Lunar Geological Exploration Camera. This was a small, handheld camera for use by the astronauts on the lunar surface that included a pair of 35mm lenses for recording a stereo view plus a 135mm telephoto between the two 35mm lenses for details of the scenes. All shutters fired simultaneously. The cameras were completed and awaiting final acceptance testing when the project was cancelled. I never found out the reason for the cancellation. After the cancellation, I was transferred to one of the other Kollmorgen subsidiaries: Macbeth, of densitometer, color measurement, and color viewing hood fame.

Some time after I was transferred the Goerz lens business was sold to Schneider Optics. No one familiar with the quality of the Goerz lenses was especially happy about this. While Schneider always made good lenses, the factor that made Goerz lenses so superior was the semi-custom nature of their manufacturing. At Goerz, as glass elements were assembled, they were put on a bench and adjusted for the optimum separation of the elements. Then the lens barrel would be machined to exactly match those two specific pieces of glass. The entire lens was built up this way. Very time consuming and expensive. At one point Kern from Switzerland said that they could build lenses using the Goerz design that would have the same or better quality by using mass production and tighter tolerances. So, Goerz sent them one of their designs and Kern made a small batch of lenses to show what tighter tolerances and mass production could do. When the lenses arrived at Goerz, not one of the Kern lenses passed the Georz QC requirements.

Interestingly, at Goerz in 1970 the EVP had left Hungry after the Revolution of 1956. He was very partial to his countrymen. Consequently, the large machine shop we had was filled almost exclusively with Hungarian immigrants. I have never seen a group argue as much as these guys did. I was about 23 at the time and thought it the most dysfunctional place I had ever seen. It took me months to realize that the arguments were a form on entertainment for these guys. No one took any of the arguments seriously. But they were in fact some of the nicest, most caring guys I've yet to meet ... they just never made it obvious. If I asked for a part to be fabricated within a week, they would spend the next 30 minutes telling me why it would take them at least three weeks to get it to me. Then after an argument that they all thoroughly enjoyed, the would go make the part and have it sitting on my desk by the next morning. One time upon arriving a work I found that a critical part on my Ducati motorcycle had broken I was was lucky to not have killed myself on the way to work. The closest Ducati dealer was about 30 miles away and I now had no transportation. So, one of the mechanical engineers came out and sketched up a drawing of what would replace the part and gave it to the Hungarian machinists. By mid-afternoon they had fabricated a new part for me out of some super-quality stainless that was scrap from another project .... and no one would even let me buy them a coke as a thank you.

So, in case you haven't figured it out by now, I thought that Goerz in 1970 made some pretty spectacular products and had a staff of great people. It was one of the best jobs I ever had, I work with some great people, and I was given responsibilities far in excess of what my age would have normally suggested.

Sorry I can't provide greater information about specific lenses, but if anyone wants more info about the company in those days, I'll be glad to add whatever I can.

goamules
30-Jun-2013, 06:06
What wonderful stories about your times at Goerz. Thanks for telling us some, and tell more!

Fotoguy20d
30-Jun-2013, 07:42
back non the late 80s I worked for an aerospace company whe we had several of their rate tables. fast forward to the more recent present and I have Goerz lenses from the 1890s to the 1950s. Bu, never made the connection until seeing this thread. Thanks for sharing the history and stories.

Dan

John Kasaian
30-Jun-2013, 08:07
This is all very cool information! Sorry I don't have anything to add other than the Goerz lens I do have are very fine and I enjoy them. Knowing more of the history of the company adds a lot to that enjoyment!

Jim Galli
30-Jun-2013, 14:05
Don't you love it when the guy who actually does know the story walks into the room! Thanks Cheshire.

civich
30-Jun-2013, 16:04
Amen to that! A shining light on the tower of we-babel


Don't you love it when the guy who actually does know the story walks into the room! Thanks Cheshire.

David A. Goldfarb
30-Jun-2013, 16:49
461 Doughty Blvd, Inwood, L.I.--today home to Laundrylux, a supplier of Wascomat laundry machines for coin-operated laundromats.

E. von Hoegh
1-Jul-2013, 06:57
Sorry to be so late to this thread, but thought I could help a bit since I worked at Goerz in Pittsburgh during 1970.

Goerz had two very different businesses. First, their lines of view and process camera lenses, most of which in 1970 were being manufactured in Mineola, LI, NY. Second, in Pittsburgh they made mainly large rate tables, i.e. test equipment for inertial guidance systems. In this, Contraves was a local competitor. I personally was working with others in Pittsburgh at Goerz on a project for NASA, the Lunar Geological Exploration Camera. This was a small, handheld camera for use by the astronauts on the lunar surface that included a pair of 35mm lenses for recording a stereo view plus a 135mm telephoto between the two 35mm lenses for details of the scenes. All shutters fired simultaneously. The cameras were completed and awaiting final acceptance testing when the project was cancelled. I never found out the reason for the cancellation. After the cancellation, I was transferred to one of the other Kollmorgen subsidiaries: Macbeth, of densitometer, color measurement, and color viewing hood fame.

Some time after I was transferred the Goerz lens business was sold to Schneider Optics. No one familiar with the quality of the Goerz lenses was especially happy about this. While Schneider always made good lenses, the factor that made Goerz lenses so superior was the semi-custom nature of their manufacturing. At Goerz, as glass elements were assembled, they were put on a bench and adjusted for the optimum separation of the elements. Then the lens barrel would be machined to exactly match those two specific pieces of glass. The entire lens was built up this way. Very time consuming and expensive. At one point Kern from Switzerland said that they could build lenses using the Goerz design that would have the same or better quality by using mass production and tighter tolerances. So, Goerz sent them one of their designs and Kern made a small batch of lenses to show what tighter tolerances and mass production could do. When the lenses arrived at Goerz, not one of the Kern lenses passed the Georz QC requirements.

Interestingly, at Goerz in 1970 the EVP had left Hungry after the Revolution of 1956. He was very partial to his countrymen. Consequently, the large machine shop we had was filled almost exclusively with Hungarian immigrants. I have never seen a group argue as much as these guys did. I was about 23 at the time and thought it the most dysfunctional place I had ever seen. It took me months to realize that the arguments were a form on entertainment for these guys. No one took any of the arguments seriously. But they were in fact some of the nicest, most caring guys I've yet to meet ... they just never made it obvious. If I asked for a part to be fabricated within a week, they would spend the next 30 minutes telling me why it would take them at least three weeks to get it to me. Then after an argument that they all thoroughly enjoyed, the would go make the part and have it sitting on my desk by the next morning. One time upon arriving a work I found that a critical part on my Ducati motorcycle had broken I was was lucky to not have killed myself on the way to work. The closest Ducati dealer was about 30 miles away and I now had no transportation. So, one of the mechanical engineers came out and sketched up a drawing of what would replace the part and gave it to the Hungarian machinists. By mid-afternoon they had fabricated a new part for me out of some super-quality stainless that was scrap from another project .... and no one would even let me buy them a coke as a thank you.

So, in case you haven't figured it out by now, I thought that Goerz in 1970 made some pretty spectacular products and had a staff of great people. It was one of the best jobs I ever had, I work with some great people, and I was given responsibilities far in excess of what my age would have normally suggested.

Sorry I can't provide greater information about specific lenses, but if anyone wants more info about the company in those days, I'll be glad to add whatever I can.

http://www.acutronic.com/fileadmin/cms_files/Chronology_of_ACUTRONIC.pdf If this is accurate, Contraves owned this division of Goerz in the late 60s or 1970.

Bernice Loui
1-Jul-2013, 10:24
Thank you for sharing this..

Many of the Goerz lenses in the pile are in barrel from the 1960's to maybe early 1970's. The machine work and overall performance of these lenses are simply excellent by any standard. There are also a few Schneider-Goerz lenses made with aluminum barrel which are not as nicely made as the previous brass or brass alloy barrel lenses.

No surprise to hear each lens was individually set-up and finished. There was a time when I had several of the same focal length Goerz lens and each had a different length barrel or shutter mounting as measured by micrometer. This level of craft is what appears to give Goerz lenses from that era that extra bit of special image personality that makes me very fond of Goerz lenses form that era.



Curious question..

Goerz made a number of speciality lenses for the US military like the Magnar ( optimized at f8 for 2X enlargement of aero-recon film), Goerz Hycon (Biogon under contract ?) and others. Are there any stories that can be told about these special lenses ?


Bernice


Sorry to be so late to this thread, but thought I could help a bit since I worked at Goerz in Pittsburgh during 1970.

Goerz had two very different businesses. First, their lines of view and process camera lenses, most of which in 1970 were being manufactured in Mineola, LI, NY. Second, in Pittsburgh they made mainly large rate tables, i.e. test equipment for inertial guidance systems. In this, Contraves was a local competitor. I personally was working with others in Pittsburgh at Goerz on a project for NASA, the Lunar Geological Exploration Camera. This was a small, handheld camera for use by the astronauts on the lunar surface that included a pair of 35mm lenses for recording a stereo view plus a 135mm telephoto between the two 35mm lenses for details of the scenes. All shutters fired simultaneously. The cameras were completed and awaiting final acceptance testing when the project was cancelled. I never found out the reason for the cancellation. After the cancellation, I was transferred to one of the other Kollmorgen subsidiaries: Macbeth, of densitometer, color measurement, and color viewing hood fame.

Some time after I was transferred the Goerz lens business was sold to Schneider Optics. No one familiar with the quality of the Goerz lenses was especially happy about this. While Schneider always made good lenses, the factor that made Goerz lenses so superior was the semi-custom nature of their manufacturing. At Goerz, as glass elements were assembled, they were put on a bench and adjusted for the optimum separation of the elements. Then the lens barrel would be machined to exactly match those two specific pieces of glass. The entire lens was built up this way. Very time consuming and expensive. At one point Kern from Switzerland said that they could build lenses using the Goerz design that would have the same or better quality by using mass production and tighter tolerances. So, Goerz sent them one of their designs and Kern made a small batch of lenses to show what tighter tolerances and mass production could do. When the lenses arrived at Goerz, not one of the Kern lenses passed the Georz QC requirements.

Interestingly, at Goerz in 1970 the EVP had left Hungry after the Revolution of 1956. He was very partial to his countrymen. Consequently, the large machine shop we had was filled almost exclusively with Hungarian immigrants. I have never seen a group argue as much as these guys did. I was about 23 at the time and thought it the most dysfunctional place I had ever seen. It took me months to realize that the arguments were a form on entertainment for these guys. No one took any of the arguments seriously. But they were in fact some of the nicest, most caring guys I've yet to meet ... they just never made it obvious. If I asked for a part to be fabricated within a week, they would spend the next 30 minutes telling me why it would take them at least three weeks to get it to me. Then after an argument that they all thoroughly enjoyed, the would go make the part and have it sitting on my desk by the next morning. One time upon arriving a work I found that a critical part on my Ducati motorcycle had broken I was was lucky to not have killed myself on the way to work. The closest Ducati dealer was about 30 miles away and I now had no transportation. So, one of the mechanical engineers came out and sketched up a drawing of what would replace the part and gave it to the Hungarian machinists. By mid-afternoon they had fabricated a new part for me out of some super-quality stainless that was scrap from another project .... and no one would even let me buy them a coke as a thank you.

So, in case you haven't figured it out by now, I thought that Goerz in 1970 made some pretty spectacular products and had a staff of great people. It was one of the best jobs I ever had, I work with some great people, and I was given responsibilities far in excess of what my age would have normally suggested.

Sorry I can't provide greater information about specific lenses, but if anyone wants more info about the company in those days, I'll be glad to add whatever I can.

Dan Fromm
1-Jul-2013, 11:40
Bernice, the 38/4.5 Biogons Goerz made under license were badged Biogon and Aerogor. The 3"/4.5 Biogon Goerz made under license was badged Biogon and Aerogor. Goerz made other lenses for USAF, including the 6"/2.3 Supergor (covers 4.5" x 4.5"), 6"/6.3 Metrogon (covers 9" x 9"), and 6"/6.3 Planigon (covers 9" x 9"). This from my USAF data sheets, which are online at http://archive.org/details/USAF_lens_datasheets.

Hycon was a military contractor, made, among other things, aerial cameras, bought lenses from Goerz American and other makers.

I'm not sure whether any of the lenses Goerz made for aerial cameras were original Goerz designs. USAF bought the rights to designs, put contracts to make them up for bid. Hence Biogons from Zeiss, Goerz and Viewlex and Metrogons and Planigons from any number of makers.

The 3"/6 Goerz Rectagon (surely Goerz' own, see the 1951 Goerz catalog on cameraeccentric.com) isn't mentioned in my USAF data sheets, but that proves nothing.

Billinpgh
2-Jul-2013, 07:10
Thank you for the memorable post. You must have known my father at Goerz -- Kenneth Kemp, who passed away in 2001

Cheshire
2-Jul-2013, 09:28
http://www.acutronic.com/fileadmin/cms_files/Chronology_of_ACUTRONIC.pdf If this is accurate, Contraves owned this division of Goerz in the late 60s or 1970.

Nope, at the time I joined Goerz in February 1970, Contraves and Goerz were competitors with some very similar product lines ... and a number of people who had migrated from one company to the other in both directions. However, the relations between the two companies were quite cordial. In fact, I had called Contraves for a job interview first. It was the guy I talked with at Contraves, who although he took the appointment told me on the phone that he really didn't have any openings, who suggested that I call Goerz and both gave me the name I should call and said I should reference him. It was sometime after I was transferred to another Kollmorgen division that Goerz and Contraves became one company, but I can't off-hand remember who bought whom. Also, the lens business had been sold to Schneider before Goerz and Contraves became one.

Cheshire
2-Jul-2013, 09:36
Bernice,

It looks like this timeline is fairly accurate, but you may have misread it a bit. Based upon the data points shown and the captions for those data points, here are approximate dates:

1968 -- Kollmargen form Goerz Inland Systems

1972 -- Contraves and Goerz are merged to form Contraves Goerz Corporation

1974 -- Fecker acquired by Contraves Goerz

Cheshire
2-Jul-2013, 09:54
Except for the lenses used on the LGEC, I really wasn't involved with any of the other lenses being produced by Goerz at the time. However, the lens that most intrigued me was the most expensive lens that Goerz made at time. It fascinated me because it was optimized for 1 to 1 reproduction and cost about $10,000 ... enormously expensive at the time. It was made specifically for the manufacture of maps and had an extremely flat field with very low other aberrations.

The other lens story that fascinated me was their trade show lenses. Goerz found that almost every time they exhibited at a trade show, at least one lens would grow legs and walk away on its own. This got to be very expensive very quickly. So, for every lens they took to a trade show, they took a "00" (double O) lens, meaning that the serial number started with two zeros. These lenses where manufactured with a front element and a rear element, but all of the other glass elements were missing. They would then weight it to make it feel like a real lens. Their reasoning was that at a trade show, no one ever put one of these lenses on a camera and took an image with it. These lenses were merely so people look look at them and feel them. So, only the 00 lenses ever went to trade shows. Did that stop lenses from being pilfered? Nope, not at all. Lenses still disappeared from trade show booths on a regular basis. However, they were now saving lots of money on these missing lenses since they cost almost nothing to manufacture. The really funny postscript to this story is that on a regular basis Goerz would be sent one of these lenses back with a cover letter saying something like, "Just bought this lens you manufactured and it doesn't seem to be working correctly. Can you please fix it for me?" All of these people received back the same form letter explaining that this was a non-funcitonal trade-show only demo lens that was stolen from a booth at the XYZ trade show on ABC date. The letter than ended something like, "Thank you for returning this to us. We greatly appreciate the return of our stolen property." We never heard anything for a second time from any of these people.

Cheshire
2-Jul-2013, 10:12
Yes, I definitely knew Ken Kemp, although after more than 40 years I can't remember more than his name. I'm sorry to hear that he is no longer among us.

At this point, although I still vividly remember some of the people I worked with while at Goerz, I remember them more for their personalities than their names. There are probably 8 or 10 that I still remember, but the only name that comes to mind other than Coker's was the guy I reported to directly, a Swiss national whose first name was Leo (I think). I was impressed that he was born at home in a house that had been in his family for over 600 years. We also had a mechanical engineer who was a state motocross champion and a lens polisher who had been at Contraves just before Goerz. It was a great group of people.

Colin D
4-Jul-2013, 21:12
What great reading, when you hold a lens and know someone or of someone who might have worked on it it adds a warm soft fuzzy romance to the whole dang thing and makes you want to never let your kids get their hands on it and flog it off at the pawn shop for diddly squat to get some crappy digi that will be landfill within 5 years.

Bernice Loui
5-Jul-2013, 09:55
There is even more appreciation of how many of these older lenses which were hand crafted if there are pencil markings still on the lens cells or hand engraved numbers on the barrel noting matching and other processes as these lenses were made. These lenses were simply works of art in their own way, a blending of science, technology and art resulting in a tool for artist to create expressive images with.

Or part of what gives these lenses their individual personality. Not usually found in mass produced things common today.


Bernice



What great reading, when you hold a lens and know someone or of someone who might have worked on it it adds a warm soft fuzzy romance to the whole dang thing and makes you want to never let your kids get their hands on it and flog it off at the pawn shop for diddly squat to get some crappy digi that will be landfill within 5 years.