best low-cost field 4x5 for LF newbie?

[kevwil]

I'm seeking some advice. I apologize if this question is commonly asked in some form or another, but I'm new to the forum as well. Sorry.

I want to get a 4x5 camera. I have my eye on either the Chamonix 0-45n-2 or the Shen-Hao PTB45 (or any Shen-Hao really). I've used a tilt-shift lens (Canon) before and the technical movements don't scare me. I am attracted to the light weight of this type of camera, and the improved technical movements compared to, say, a Graflex. I'm strongly considering getting a 6x12 roll film back for this camera as well.

Is there a better choice for low-cost field 4x5?

I need the camera, a lens, a dark cloth, a loupe, a light meter, and some film - anything else? I have a sturdy tripod - Induro CT314 and PhotoClam PC48NS head, and a couple of extra Kirk or Wimberley camera plates.

[John Kasaian]

Gonna hike with it, stay in the studio or work out of the trunk of your car? Or a little of each? New or used?

[mike rosenlof]

I recommend a monorail 4x5 unless you really want to pack the thing into the mountains. There are a ton of them out there and prices are very low now.

A good monrail is sturdy, has all the movement you could ever want, might have a bunch of accessories available especially if you go with Sinar or Toyo, but the old Calumets are just fine and cheap.

[biedron]

I need the camera, a lens, a dark cloth, a loupe, a light meter, and some film - anything else?


You'll need some film holders too. A film changing tent, though definitely not essential, can makes things a bit more convenient.

Bob

[Ben Syverson]

I appreciate Mike's suggestion, but I'd recommend that you at least look at the Super Graphic. It has more movements than most people use, it's compact, it's light, and it's quick to set up.

In my opinion, a monorail is overkill for most types of photography. They're useful for close-up or product photography, but not many other subjects require the full pretzel. On the other hand, they tend to be cheap but heavy, so if you can drive to your subject, you can buy a very sturdy 4x5 for $150.

If you're interested in the technical capabilities of movements, it would help to know what you're trying to do. But if you're more interested in the artistic possibilities of tilt/shift for isolating subjects, then you should even consider the Speed Graphic. There are simple modifications you can do to the camera to add swing and other non-standard movements. For an example, look at Rommel's amazing 4x5 work (http://www.flickr.com/photos/llemor/tags/graflex) that utilizes an Aero Ektar and a modified Speed:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7131/6871507206_aca59ca9e2_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/llemor/tags/graflex)

[Leigh]

If you're looking for a decent monorail, I could put together a very complete kit using a Plaubel Peco Profia 4x5,
with everything you need to take pictures except the tripod.

Let me know if you're interested.

- Leigh

[Frank Petronio]

Monorails have all movements, unlimited but more so, you can actually see the movements and how they work. The knobs are larger, the controls are easier to distinguish. This is no small feature because most every field camera design obscures and limits their movements... even if it is only a psychological block, you tend to use them too sparingly or rationalize none at all.

Go for freedom, especially for learning.

Get a good beefy tripod.

[joselsgil]

Way back in time, when I attended my local college. The large format camera that was available to our sticky, sweaty hands, were the Calumet monorail cameras. They are built to take on a beginner's abuse and experiments. They work great in a studio or architectural work. Maybe not the greatest for long hikes tho.

When I purchased my Calumet, I found the owner's name in the camera case. He purchased the camera back in the 70's while attending Brooks Photography School in Santa Barbara, California. Like I said, the camera can take the abuse, and you can find them for less than $200.

Oh, and don't forget a good cable release, a dusting brush or air can, and lots of patients.

[Alan Gales]

If you are going to backpack with it then you should also check out used Toyo A and All (A2) 4x5 metal folding field cameras. They have come down in price lately on the used market. A good friend of mine has the A. They are really nice cameras!

[C. D. Keth]

If I were in your position, I would find a used monorail camera. Shoot with it for a while closer to home or shorter walks from the car. Get to know it and how you like to shoot. Note what movements and degree of the movements you actually use. That experience will inform a future purchase of a field camera if that's what you want. The monorail could pretty easily be sold for roughly what you bought it for. Many accessories like film holders and lenses you get will transfer to a field camera.

[sully75]

Chamonix is a sweet sweet camera.

If Frank has his way with you, go for a Toyo G. Try to find one with metal lock levers, the older plastic levers break over time and are very expensive to replace. But they are awesome cameras.

However I love my Chamonix.

If you didn't want movements, a crown would be awesome.

[Joseph Dickerson]

Kevwil,

As you can tell, large format photographers, well, actually all photographers are a rather opinionated bunch. Myself as much as anyone.

But to actually answer the question I think you asked, yes both the Shen Hao and the Chamonix are good cameras for a beginner or a seasoned pro for that matter. For the money you'd be hard pressed to find better, in fact, you could spend a lot more and not have as nice a camera the either the Shen Hao or the Chamomix.

Whether it's better to start with a monorail or a field camera has been, and will continue to be, debated here by people with a lot more experience than me...and I'm really old! :cool:

JD

[Bill_1856]

Forget MONORAIL. They're good in a studio, but hopeless in the field (except for architecture).
Have a look at a Busch Pressman model D.

[John Kasaian]

Big cameras are like tennis racquets. Pick something that looks like a camera you can imagine yourself shooting---a camera you'll want to take out and use.
A lot of big cameras just collect dust after the newness is worn off. I think you'll want a camera that can "haunt" you into using it.
If you get a camera you really want to shoot, you'll get out and use it more.

For cheap, there is no shortage of older monorails, but if what you really want is a wooden folder then start with a wooden folder.

[kevwil]

Wow, lots a excellent (and strong!) opinions already. :) I don't mind strong opinions (as long as they're respectful) because art needs passion. I have my share of strong opinions, too.

To clear a few things up:

I will be hiking with this, so weight is very important
I'm very worried that I'm boarding the titanic, with 4x5 film choices shrinking so quickly, so I don't want to spend much
Movements should be accurately adjustable and stable - sloppiness will be kicked to the curb
Having the option to shoot 6x12 or 6x9 roll film would be a nice-to-have feature.


My use case is landscapes, high mountain lakes and such (I'm in Colorado). I expect to use fall (lower the front standard, right?) and tilt (lean the front standard forward?) to maintain perspective and maximize depth of field. I probably overstated my need for many technical movements, when I'm really looking for accuracy and stability.

Wouldn't a monorail be heavy and awkward for hiking? While monorail cameras are awesome, it's probably not for me. I seem to be leaning toward wooden field cameras and away from anything metal mostly because of weight. Both the cameras I'm looking at are 3.0 lbs. I googled for the Toyo 45A and found it new @ B&H for $2500 and used on eBay for $1300. The specs said 6.2 lbs. Too much weight, too much money. If I looked at a Super Graphic, it seems they are still close to 5 lbs. :( I'm shy of the Graphics mostly because of first impressions - they look beat up, worn out, and heavy. A nice one would probably change that perception.

Thank you all so much! This is already very helpful.

[E. von Hoegh]

You might look into buying your camera of choice used. Why take a beating if you decide a year from now to sell?

[John Kasaian]

I personally wouldn't care to hike any great distance with one of the older monorails, but people often backpack with the Arca Swiss, Toho and Gowlands. That said I think a wooden folder is more intuitive to set up and shoot with. We need to get this thread back on track for the OP and discuss the finer points of the Shen vs the Chaminoix so he can make up his mind!

[E. von Hoegh]

I personally wouldn't care to hike any great distance with one of the older monorails, but people often backpack with the Arca Swiss, Toho and Gowlands. That said I think a wooden folder is more intuitive to set up and shoot with. We need to get this thread back on track for the OP and discuss the finer points of the Shen vs the Chaminoix so he can make up his mind!

He should get a Deardorff. A used one.

[neil poulsen]

There are some monorails that backpack well. (e.g. Arca. But, it sounds like it's a bit heavy for what you want.)

It seems like your first suggestions are pretty good. Also, I've seen Toyo fields cameras in the $700's on EBay. Do you want to do wide angle, like 90mm? If so, get a camera for which you can add a bag bellows later. (Like the Shen-Hao.) That's not true of the Toyo's.

Another metal field camera I've seen go for reasonable prices on EBay are the Wistas. Some of these will accept interchangeable wide-angle bellows. (e.g. Wista SP.)

[kevwil]

You might look into buying your camera of choice used. Why take a beating if you decide a year from now to sell?

I am looking into used, but I'm not finding much. The heavier cameras are inexpensive (< $500), but the light weight folders are usually within $50 of new. Might as well get new then.

Where's a good place to shop online (besides eBay, I know that one)? Knowing where to shop, and what to look for, is half the battle. I've heard of Linhof and know they're still in business, but their stuff is still thousands of dollars used. I thought $900 for the Chamonix was a steal, and the Shen-Hao is even less at $730.

[kevwil]

I personally wouldn't care to hike any great distance with one of the older monorails, but people often backpack with the Arca Swiss, Toho and Gowlands. That said I think a wooden folder is more intuitive to set up and shoot with. We need to get this thread back on track for the OP and discuss the finer points of the Shen vs the Chaminoix so he can make up his mind!

Thanks! Yes, if anyone has knowledge of flaws with these cameras, I'd love to hear it.

[E. von Hoegh]

After you've been a member here for 30 days, you will have access to the "ForSale" section.

[kevwil]

There are some monorails that backpack well. (e.g. Arca. But, it sounds like it's a bit heavy for what you want.)

It seems like your first suggestions are pretty good. Also, I've seen Toyo fields cameras in the $700's on EBay. Do you want to do wide angle, like 90mm? If so, get a camera for which you can add a bag bellows later. (Like the Shen-Hao.) That's not true of the Toyo's.

Another metal field camera I've seen go for reasonable prices on EBay are the Wistas. Some of these will accept interchangeable wide-angle bellows. (e.g. Wista SP.)

Thanks! I've look at Wistas but I'm having a hard time combining low weight and low price. The SP looks to be about 6.3 lbs. The wood cameras are hard to find under $1000. I'll keep looking though!

[kevwil]

After you've been a member here for 30 days, you will have access to the "ForSale" section.

Good point! It would probably be wise of me to wait until then before making a purchase.

[Alan Gales]

There are some monorails that backpack well. (e.g. Arca. But, it sounds like it's a bit heavy for what you want.)

It seems like your first suggestions are pretty good. Also, I've seen Toyo fields cameras in the $700's on EBay. Do you want to do wide angle, like 90mm? If so, get a camera for which you can add a bag bellows later. (Like the Shen-Hao.) That's not true of the Toyo's.

Another metal field camera I've seen go for reasonable prices on EBay are the Wistas. Some of these will accept interchangeable wide-angle bellows. (e.g. Wista SP.)

The Toyo will accept lenses down to a 47mm and a 90mm on a flat board without bag bellows according to Toyo's site. I agree that if you were often using lenses shorter than 90mm and wanted lots of movement then a camera that does support bag bellows may be preferred.

I recently saw an All go for less than $800.00 on Ebay and a few A's go for around 500 to 600. You do have to be patient to get the good deals with any used cameras.

Yes, the Toyo is a little heavier than a wooden folder but once you get your backpack loaded up with everything a couple of pounds will not be noticed. I have a wooden Tachihara which is feather light and my friend has the Toyo A. The Toyo is a little heavier but sturdier.

Everything is a trade-off. If you want light then it's not as sturdy. If you want light and sturdy then it's expensive. :)

[Frank Petronio]

Read the front pages of this website for how to do stuff. Also Kerry's old website has some interesting gearhead stuff: http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/toho.htm and http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/lightwei.htm

For lightweight and not too shabby, just get the Chamonix new off eBay. Viva la China!

Get a generic clone Technika Copal 0 lensboard for the Cham, a flat metal lenswrench, and start with a normal 135/5.6 Rodenstock Sironar-N or Schneider APO-Symmar lens in a black Copal shutter bought used for under $400.

Either get a Pentax digital spot meter used or just use your Canon set to the same ISO and aperture.

Get some B&W or color negative film, 5 or 10 Fidelity or Lisco plastic film holders, a 4 to 7x loupe - a cheap plastic one is fine. Use an old black t-shirt for a darkcloth. Treat yourself to a Harrison Pup Tent changing tent if you don't have a darkroom. Use a Tupperware food container for carrying the lens, wrap camera in darkcloth. Put your film holders into a Ziplock baggie. Get a camel hair brush and blower bulb for cleaning the holders. Buy a good Gepe cable release. Get a screw-in rubber lenshade for the lens.

Put everything into the smallest backpack you can. You don't need an over-padded camera backpack. These are really nice when you get hardcore: http://www.photobackpacker.com.

Splurge on a 2-series Gitzo or cheaper Chinese carbon-fiber tripod with 1" or larger legs, as high as you can stand. Use a RRS or decent ball head with Arca-Swiss compatible quick release plates.

Send your film to http://4photolab.com if you don't process it yourself. Save the empty boxes for sending your exposed film.

Get an Epson 700 flatbed to scan, use a color calibrator on your monitor, a pigment Epson printer is best, try the Baryta paper.

Stand in front of lake. Wait for clouds to arrange themselves in a pleasing manner. Snap the postcar... I mean artistic photograph*.

*Now that you are a hardened and experienced large format photographer, you need to buy the other necessary lenses to balance your backpack and to look professional - 58, 75, 90, 110, 180, 240, 300, 400, etc. You should also spend another few hundred on a fancy loupe and a Black Jacket focusing cloth. Then upgrade the Chinese camera to a Japanese Ebony with asymmetrical movements because your pictures will definitely be better.

All of the above is the officially prescribed method of working with large format nature photography™®. It's what we do here. Try to fit in with the group and follow along... the last deviant who rejected our core values sure got his!

Have fun!

On a serious note, all but the last two paragraphs are straight up. My other, most important tidbit of advice is to spend the good money on a serious tripod, the larger the better. You'll make much better photos with a cheap camera/lens and a good tripod than the opposite combo. I use a tripod that cost twice what my camera does....

[Alan Gales]

;)!!!

[Alan Gales]

Since you probably don't know anyone on here, click on Frank's website in blue letters at the bottom of his post. Frank is a pro who speaks from experience.

He just gave you some great advice.

[Joseph Dickerson]

Badger Graphic Sales is a distributor for the Shen Hao line, along with a lot of other stuff. Jeff is one great guy to deal with.

Check him out.

JD

[John Kasaian]

He should get a Baby Deardorff. A used one.
Fixed it for you!:)

[Leigh]

Kevwil,

A couple of general suggestions, if I may.

#1: in big red letters...
Avoid the "big name" cameras. They offer little or no value to a newbie that would justify their excessive price.
Once you gain familiarity with the equipment you can decide which features are important to you for your type of shooting,
then look at upgrading to a camera that more closely meets your ideals. Right now you don't know what those are.

#2:
Check the length of the bellows on any camera you consider. This determines the longest lens you can use, and how close you can focus.

- Leigh

[John Kasaian]

At the risk of ticking off anybody, I think the OP is splitting hairs here (not that I am in any shape to discuss hair, split or otherwise!) The finer points between the Shen and the Chamoi-however you spell it would likely be of considerable interest to someone who knows what they want in a camera and quite likely not of any consequence at all to a newbie as it takes time to determine what will work out best for you in the real world. Therefore I suggest getting either camera, whichever is available used and cheap. Play with it. Shoot it.Learn what you need to learn from it and then make the determination. As other have mentioned, you shouldn't loose any money on a good used camera, but I suspect just getting out and using a Shen (or Cham) will answer your questions better than any of us can. If it's reinforcement you want, take heart that both cameras have certainly been used to make stunningly beautiful photographs (check out the image sharing forum!)

[acs]

For lightweight and not too shabby, just get the Chamonix...

Another vote for the Chamonix. :)

[Alan Gales]

I always recommend a cheap monorail for just that reason. The late model Cambo/Calumets are lightweight although bulky. You can get one used for $150.00. Learn on it and you will figure out what you really want.

If later you decide that you want a folder then you can sell the monorail for about what you paid. You just may want to keep it for portraits and still life's.

[kevwil]

Kevwil,

A couple of general suggestions, if I may.

#1: in big red letters...
Avoid the "big name" cameras. They offer little or no value to a newbie that would justify their excessive price.
Once you gain familiarity with the equipment you can decide which features are important to you for your type of shooting,
then look at upgrading to a camera that more closely meets your ideals. Right now you don't know what those are.

#2:
Check the length of the bellows on any camera you consider. This determines the longest lens you can use, and how close you can focus.

- Leigh

#1 - good advice! Thanks.

#2 - Definitely good advice! I'm much more concerned with wide angles than the longer lengths, but I'll make note of both extremes of bellows lengths.

[kevwil]

I suggest getting either camera, whichever is available used and cheap. Play with it. Shoot it. Learn what you need to learn from it and then make the determination. As other have mentioned, you shouldn't loose any money on a good used camera, but I suspect just getting out and using a Shen (or Cham) will answer your questions better than any of us can. If it's reinforcement you want, take heart that both cameras have certainly been used to make stunningly beautiful photographs (check out the image sharing forum!)

Wait ... so common sense still exists? ;-)

[Leigh]

...both cameras have certainly been used to make stunningly beautiful photographs
Hoping not to ruffle any feathers, but...

Cameras do not make photographs. Photographers make photographs with the aid of lenses.

The lens is the only part of the camera that the light sees.

A good lens will produce good photos on any camera body, while a poor lens will produce poor photos on any body.

Put your money into lenses and use whatever body you can find in the style you want.

- Leigh

[kevwil]

Read the front pages of this website for how to do stuff. Also Kerry's old website has some interesting gearhead stuff: http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/toho.htm and http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/lightwei.htm

Hmmm, the Toho does sound interesting, the weight is good, I wonder how the prices compare?


For lightweight and not too shabby, just get the Chamonix new off eBay. Viva la China!

I get zero results when searching "Chamonix 4x5" on eBay. :(


Get a generic clone Technika Copal 0 lensboard for the Cham, a flat metal lenswrench, and start with a normal 135/5.6 Rodenstock Sironar-N or Schneider APO-Symmar lens in a black Copal shutter bought used for under $400.

Either get a Pentax digital spot meter used or just use your Canon set to the same ISO and aperture.

Is using another camera's meter really accurate enough? I don't have the Canon anymore, I use a micro-4/3 OM-D, which has spoiled me on light weight like you wouldn't believe.


Get some B&W or color negative film, 5 or 10 Fidelity or Lisco plastic film holders, a 4 to 7x loupe - a cheap plastic one is fine. Use an old black t-shirt for a darkcloth. Treat yourself to a Harrison Pup Tent changing tent if you don't have a darkroom. Use a Tupperware food container for carrying the lens, wrap camera in darkcloth. Put your film holders into a Ziplock baggie. Get a camel hair brush and blower bulb for cleaning the holders. Buy a good Gepe cable release. Get a screw-in rubber lenshade for the lens.

I always shoot color slide film, but yeah this is excellent stuff!!


Put everything into the smallest backpack you can. You don't need an over-padded camera backpack. These are really nice when you get hardcore: http://www.photobackpacker.com.

Bookmarked for future reference, thanks! I have a couple of ThinkTank backpacks that I can use in the mean time.


Splurge on a 2-series Gitzo or cheaper Chinese carbon-fiber tripod with 1" or larger legs, as high as you can stand. Use a RRS or decent ball head with Arca-Swiss compatible quick release plates.

Send your film to http://4photolab.com if you don't process it yourself. Save the empty boxes for sending your exposed film.

Get an Epson 700 flatbed to scan, use a color calibrator on your monitor, a pigment Epson printer is best, try the Baryta paper.

I have an Induro CT314 and PhotoClam PC48NS ball, both rated 50+ lbs load, should be no problem for a 3 lb camera. I have an Epson V500 scanner, I'll wait and see if it works well enough for 4x5 before considering upgrading to a V700 or V750.

Postcards - lol yeah I know I'm chasing a cliché with the landscape thing, but nature is my thing.

Great advice Frank, THANK YOU!

[sully75]

He should get a Deardorff. A used one.

Had a Deardorff, sold it and bought a Chamonix. Much, much happier.

[sully75]

At the risk of ticking off anybody, I think the OP is splitting hairs here (not that I am in any shape to discuss hair, split or otherwise!) The finer points between the Shen and the Chamoi-however you spell it would likely be of considerable interest to someone who knows what they want in a camera and quite likely not of any consequence at all to a newbie as it takes time to determine what will work out best for you in the real world. Therefore I suggest getting either camera, whichever is available used and cheap. Play with it. Shoot it.Learn what you need to learn from it and then make the determination. As other have mentioned, you shouldn't loose any money on a good used camera, but I suspect just getting out and using a Shen (or Cham) will answer your questions better than any of us can. If it's reinforcement you want, take heart that both cameras have certainly been used to make stunningly beautiful photographs (check out the image sharing forum!)

I've heard people complain about the quality of the Shen-Hao, but never the Chamonix. I do have a small complaint about mine, the bubble levels don't seem to agree with each other (slightly off). I haven't really checked to make sure the standards are parallel but no problems with sharpness.

[Mike Anderson]

....
I get zero results when searching "Chamonix 4x5" on eBay. :(
....

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=chamonix&_sacat=625&_odkw=chamonix&_osacat=0

Just search for "Chamonix" in the camera section. But I'd wait until you can see the buy/sell forum here before buying from ebay.

[Leigh]

I get zero results when searching "Chamonix 4x5" on eBay.
Just search for Chamonix (no quotes). I got 19 hits.

If you're really determined to throw your money away, this is a good way to do it.

You could get some nice lenses for that amount of $$$.

- Leigh

[Frank Petronio]

Yeah obviously you should buy Leigh's camera instead!

[Leigh]

Yeah obviously you should buy Leigh's camera instead!
Only if it's the right camera for the application. I'd be losing money on that package, so I hope he doesn't buy it.

My point is that wasting money on overpriced nameplates will not in any way improve the OP's photography.
Buying a basic monorail or folder and putting the extra money into additional/better lenses will make much more of a difference.

It's a question of whether he wants to brag to friends in the pub about how much he spent on a camera,
or if he wants to go out and take good pictures.

The light can't read the name on the front of the camera body.

- Leigh

[Frank Petronio]

Your Plaubel would make a great first or last camera....

[ImSoNegative]

I bought a shen hao ptb45 a few years ago and love it, not sure what they cost now, but i paid i think 649 for mine then, through badger graphic. they weigh just under 3 pounds, the movements are a bit weird until you get used to it, depending on what you are used to. but it folds really nice and easy to backpack with.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

The problem I'd have in recommending a field camera as a first LF camera is that these only allow ground glass focusing off a tripod once the camera has been set up, unfolded, zero'd out, etc. It's not a particularly intuitive process, as many cameras particularly the wood folders don't all zero out with precision.
A metal folder has the flexibility of being able to be used similarly, but since most have infinity stops and will zero out simply by unfolding and setting them up, it may also be used as on a tripod and ready to shoot in 30 seconds, or even hand-held and ready to shoot in mere moments (if a rangefinder is mounted).
A Super Graphic could be a fine choice for a first camera, but because it doesn't have rack focusing for wide angle lenses, I like the Meridian 45B better myself. Used, either camera can be found for perhaps $250-400 on eBay.

[Leigh]

I agree that metal folders (Graphic press cameras et al) can be set up faster in most cases.
I've used press cameras, wooden folders, and monorails. I think press are the fastest to set up, monorails the slowest.

However, press are basically designed for a single lens. The infinity stops are only valid for a single focal length.
Some cameras have stops that fold down, so you can install more than one set, but then you must remember which to use.

Couple that with the fact that press-camera movements are limited, with typically none at all at the rear,
and your functionality is greatly diminished compared with other "real" LF cameras.

- Leigh

[Richard Wasserman]

Sinar Normas seem to be going for $300-400 on ebay. A lot of very capable camera for not a lot of money.

[kevwil]

If you're really determined to throw your money away, this is a good way to do it.

A Linhof Technikardan 45s is well north of $6K but the Chamonix is $900. How am I throwing my money away chasing overpriced nameplates? Your point is well taken, but your tone is not. Show me a better deal, don't insult me.

[sully75]

Only if it's the right camera for the application. I'd be losing money on that package, so I hope he doesn't buy it.

My point is that wasting money on overpriced nameplates will not in any way improve the OP's photography.
Buying a basic monorail or folder and putting the extra money into additional/better lenses will make much more of a difference.

It's a question of whether he wants to brag to friends in the pub about how much he spent on a camera,
or if he wants to go out and take good pictures.

The light can't read the name on the front of the camera body.

- Leigh

It's just an awesome, awesome camera. Have you used one? Adjustments are super thought out, everything works perfectly. My complaint about the bubble levels notwithstanding, it's an absolute pleasure to use. I had a Deardorff which paled in comparison with this camera. Not exactly cheap but not insanely expensive either.

A camera that inspires you to use it is a camera worth having.

[kevwil]

The problem I'd have in recommending a field camera as a first LF camera is that these only allow ground glass focusing off a tripod once the camera has been set up, unfolded, zero'd out, etc. It's not a particularly intuitive process, as many cameras particularly the wood folders don't all zero out with precision.
A metal folder has the flexibility of being able to be used similarly, but since most have infinity stops and will zero out simply by unfolding and setting them up, it may also be used as on a tripod and ready to shoot in 30 seconds, or even hand-held and ready to shoot in mere moments (if a rangefinder is mounted).
A Super Graphic could be a fine choice for a first camera, but because it doesn't have rack focusing for wide angle lenses, I like the Meridian 45B better myself. Used, either camera can be found for perhaps $250-400 on eBay.

That's very interesting! Sounds very convenient, and a good price. I hadn't thought about setting up quickly, I rather assumed that large format photography was slow and deliberate and always rewarded patience. I'll seek out the Meridian and see what's up.

[kevwil]

A camera that inspires you to use it is a camera worth having.

Thanks! I agree. I haven't found big, heavy, awkward monorails to be inspiring at all - it sounds an awful lot like work, and we can't have that in our hobby, can we? ;-) The Toho seems to be the exception, at least for weight, and it has a spot on my short list.

[Leigh]

I wasn't insulting you or anyone. I make the same recommendation to anyone looking to get started in any format:

Buy a good used camera from a reputable manufacturer. Get used to the format. Learn the functions, strengths, and weaknesses
of the various features and accessories as they relate to your particular subjects, shooting methods, and goals.

Then you can make an informed decision about which features you want and which models will provide them.

Dropping a pile of money on a camera just because it's expensive is a waste of money.

- Leigh

[kevwil]

Just search for Chamonix (no quotes). I got 19 hits.

Thanks for the correction, odd that "45" and "4x5" don't help the search.

[kevwil]

I wasn't insulting you or anyone. I make the same recommendation to anyone looking to get started in any format:

Buy a good used camera from a reputable manufacturer. Get used to the format. Learn the functions, strengths, and weaknesses
of the various features and accessories as they relate to your particular subjects, shooting methods, and goals.

Then you can make an informed decision about which features you want and which models will provide them.

Dropping a pile of money on a camera just because it's expensive is a waste of money.

- Leigh

OK, cool. My mistake. It seemed like this:


If you're really determined to throw your money away, this is a good way to do it.

... was saying I'm trying to throw my money away, which is obviously not true. I'm here practically begging for advice to find a decent camera (for hiking) at a low price. I'm not interested in the shiniest nameplate, and I'm certainly not trying to impress anyone. I'm a pretty crappy photographer, actually, and I'm just trying to please myself and create some images I'm proud of. Nothing more.

[Leigh]

That was the generic universal all-encompassing 'you', not the personal second-person 'you'. :D

As you (personal you) said here and in the thread title, you're looking for a decent camera "at a low price".
I'm trying to steer you away from the brand-bunnies toward more practical, useful, and economical options.
If the effort failed, you have my apologies.

- Leigh

[kevwil]

OK, here's my short list so far.

Anba Ikeda Wood View - light, low price, don't know much else about it.

Toho Shimo FC-45X - light, sturdy & well built (for it's size), affordable, very nice bellows depth, but still a bit awkward for hiking and hard to find.

Shen Hao PTB45 - light, inexpensive, but odd movements

Chamonix 045n-2 - light, ground glass protector, universal bellows, accepts rollfilm backs, but most expensive of the bunch

Graflex Super Graphic - least expensive, simple, but hard to find in good shape and is heaviest of the bunch

I'm leaning toward the Chamonix based on the feature set, with the Toho being impossible to ignore. I want to learn more about that one, and I wish they were easier to find.

I'm going to let this thread sit for a while and see what I find in the classifieds here after my 30-day "newbie" period is over. THANK YOU ALL for your advice and opinions. I'm doing my best to absorb it all and consider all opinions, 'cause I don't know squat about large format photography ... yet.

[kevwil]

That was the generic universal all-encompassing 'you', not the personal second-person 'you'. :D

As you (personal you) said here and in the thread title, you're looking for a decent camera "at a low price".
I'm trying to steer you away from the brand-bunnies toward more practical, useful, and economical options.
If the effort failed, you have my apologies.

- Leigh

No sweat. :cool:

[Leigh]

You might want to take a look at the Large Format offerings at KEH www.keh.com
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned them. They have the broadest selection by far, with fair prices and conservative grading.

Even if you don't buy anything from them, you (personal) can get a good idea of available products and prices on the used market.

I've bought a whole bunch of stuff, mostly LF, from them and can highly recommend them as a vendor.
Excellent business ethics and practices, with a 14-day unconditional return policy.

- Leigh

[Leszek Vogt]

Just saw Nagaoka 4x5 Field rig (on CL in Vancouver, BC) and it might be down your alley. The seller claims that it weighs only around 2lbs...for less than $500. I may be a noob here, but I'd pretty much echo what's been said here....no matter what you buy, and besides showing up, it's the technique that matters the most. Once you get everything tested, understand which film/s you prefer and all the tech stuff out of the way....making nice images is not v. hard....and I'm assuming you lassoed the composition. Hope you find the right camera.

Les

[RichardSperry]

Are Chamonix's made in China?

Those $900 cameras on eBay are new.

Seems like a well built camera from the pictures. I was going to recommend the Toyo, but...

[Cletus]

Kevwil - I just sent you a PM with a nice, complete Shen Hao kit you might be interested in. I might list here in the classifieds soon if this isn't for you.

I'll give you dibs 'cause I was right where you are and wold have appreciated something like this when I was starting out.

Cheers and good luck in your LF pursuits!

Cletus

[gilestown]

Id suggest buying a second hand Wista SP from japan. I picked mine up for $740 USD. New retail price is 2.5G I think. Mine is in great condition, and has all movements I need for the kind of landscape work I do. The metal body is strong and gives me the stability Im looking for as well. Holds a 135mm lens inside the folded unit as well I think.

[Brian Ellis]

For what you want forget monorails. I can't believe some here are suggesting a monorail to someone who says they're looking for light weight field camera. The two cameras you mention are excellent choices, I've owned both. As between the two I'd probably go for the Chamonix. It's a little lighter (1-2 pounds) and has a longer bellows (about 15" vs 12"). But either would do fine. Other choices would be a Tachihara (light, fewer movements than either the Chamonix or the Shen but all you need for general purpose outdoor photography). I've owned two and they were excellent cameras. They're also a little simpler to set up and operate than the Chamonix or Shen (more movements generally = more complexity and vice versa). There are others (Wista - overpriced IMHO, Nagaoka, Zone VI or Wisner if you buy used, et al) but those are the three brands of 4x5 field cameras I've owned and so have experience with. I'd recommend any of the three for your purposes.

I've also owned and liked Linhof Technikas (IV and later) but you'd have to buy used to keep the cost manageable. Someone else mentioned a Toyo A. I've never owned one but I've played around with one and it too seemed like a very nice camera.

Sorry but I have to stop now, I'm off to see my psychiatrist to cure this psychological block Frank tells me I have : - )

[Frank Petronio]

Oh what a set-up for a great joke... But I will be nice for once.

But after he clarified he wanted a light camera, I suggested a Chamonix. I still think an inexpensive monorail is a great first camera even if you "evolve" into a field camera.

[Jim Jones]

The Anba Ikeda is a fine little camera for a compact featherweight kit. When a few extra lenses are added, its advantage in weight becomes unimportant. My ready-to-go kit with three lenses, several film holders, and other accessories in a hard case weighs 13 lbs. It is also the most beautiful camera I've ever owned. If only my photos looked as good . . .

[John Kasaian]

Click on the LF Home Page on the blue banner above---follow the links to 4x5 View Cameras and read the reviews:)

[Robert Budding]

This seems closely related to the OP's question, so I'll pose it: I've been considering a Shen Hao XPO. I definitely do not want to carry a monorail into the field, but I want something quick and easy to set up (well, relatively quick and easy). It's not as portable as a folding camera, but it looks manageable. Anyone here use an XPO? Any reson why I should go with something more compact for carrying about?

[BradS]

A Linhof Technikardan 45s is well north of $6K but the Chamonix is $900. How am I throwing my money away chasing overpriced nameplates? Your point is well taken, but your tone is not. Show me a better deal, don't insult me.

Just put Leigh on your ignore list...we'll all be happier.

[BradS]

OK, here's my short list so far.

Anba Ikeda Wood View - light, low price, don't know much else about it.

Toho Shimo FC-45X - light, sturdy & well built (for it's size), affordable, very nice bellows depth, but still a bit awkward for hiking and hard to find.

Shen Hao PTB45 - light, inexpensive, but odd movements

Chamonix 045n-2 - light, ground glass protector, universal bellows, accepts rollfilm backs, but most expensive of the bunch

Graflex Super Graphic - least expensive, simple, but hard to find in good shape and is heaviest of the bunch

I'm leaning toward the Chamonix based on the feature set, with the Toho being impossible to ignore. I want to learn more about that one, and I wish they were easier to find.

I'm going to let this thread sit for a while and see what I find in the classifieds here after my 30-day "newbie" period is over. THANK YOU ALL for your advice and opinions. I'm doing my best to absorb it all and consider all opinions, 'cause I don't know squat about large format photography ... yet.


My thoughts:

Ikeda Anba - Light weight, and rather delicate. also hard to find.

Shen Hao PTB45, Chamonix 045n-2 - these are basically the same design...and the design is some what...eh, non standard? That's not bad...just different. The 045n-2 is Chamonix's second try at this design and they have fixed several issues and made sme cool improvements....still, it has some annoying "features". Many love them...except for the lightweight, I'm ambivalent on both of these.

Graflex Super Graphic...great camera with plenty of movements for landscape. By far the most rugged and reliable of the lot. Not suited really at all to short focal lengths.

Toho...I think I'd be looking at a nice used Gowland Pocket View before one of these. But, I'm guessing that you'd not be pleased with either.

[John Kasaian]

What about a Tachi?

[BradS]

What about a Tachi?


Indeed, the Tachihara and its twin sister from Wista are both fine cameras for field work. The horseman woodman also falls in this lot. The Tachihara seems a bit scarce in the US these days. I also like Shen Hao's ripoff...er, I mean, "interpretation" of this design, the Shen Hao TZ45-IIB. This design is actually fairly common - the Tachihara, the Ikeda Anba and the Nagaoka, for example all share this basic design. Shen Hao's more modern take is quite nice.

[mikezvi]

I haven't read the thread so it might have been covered, but I got my Tech III from KEH for like $225 and I could not be happier with it.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

my thoughts.

get a cambo for $50.00 and make sure you like large format photography. then, later on, when your sure about it, you can take all of these other suggestions.

[jchesky]

[QUOTE=kevwil;924573]I'm seeking some advice. I apologize if this question is commonly asked in some form or another, but I'm new to the forum as well. Sorry.

I want to get a 4x5 camera. I have my eye on either the Chamonix 0-45n-2 or the Shen-Hao PTB45 (or any Shen-Hao really). I've used a tilt-shift lens (Canon) before and the technical movements don't scare me. I am attracted to the light weight of this type of camera, and the improved technical movements compared to, say, a Graflex. I'm strongly considering getting a 6x12 roll film back for this camera as well.

Yes, there are other choices, better perhaps, but either Chamonix 0-45n-2 or the Shen-Hao PTB45 would be fine cameras. The camera, after all, is little more than a light-tight box with a device to keep the film holder flat at the plane of focus, a focusing mechanism (bellows) with the ability to see what you'll shoot and focus (ground glass/Fresnel screen) and offer some ability to control perspective, alignment and getting an apparent infinite depth of field without closing down the aperture which means movements. Things to consider, the weight of this light tight box if you intend to travel away from your vehicle at all. Whether the back is an international (grafloc) style back allowing common roll film holders to be mounted. Ease of use is very important, and if you can play with the camera prior to choosing would be great. You'll need to have confidence in the camera or you will not find happiness in your shooting. My first was a Crown, and with out movement (or very limited) I took great shots using really good lenses. Many camera later I own a Zone ultralight and truthfully, the camera is better than i am a photographer. Good luck.