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View Full Version : 4x5 field camera for some architecture work with a roll back. MPP?



suchar
21-Aug-2012, 07:11
Hello,

I'm looking for a 4x5 field camera as I want to start portraying detached houses (which means not very high) in the suburbs. For that I need movements, especially front rise (correct me if I'm wrong), which pushes me into large format. Monorails are rather heavy and bulky, when light weight is preferable, and would probably require a new tripod so I decided to seek for a field camera. To be able to photograph in colour I need a roll film back (6x7 but a panoramic option is also tempting), as otherwise, costs of 4x5 colour sheets would rather ruin me :) At last, a wide angle lens would be nice to have. Now I have a kind question to you: which camera would you suggest? I have an opportunity to purchase a MPP VII camera with a Rodenstock 90/8 (yet on 6x7 this is a standard focal lenght) in, as it seems, a very good condition. Would it fit my needs? Down to which focal length on 6x7 will this camera work?

Kind regards,
Chris

Kirk Gittings
21-Aug-2012, 07:14
A 90 on roll film will not be wide enough in most cases. The rule of thumb amongst professional architectural photographers is with 4x5 is that 90% of your images will be done with a 90mm lens. This very roughly translates to a 65mm on 6x9 or a 47mm on 6x7. So you need a camera with very wide lens capabilities, preferably on flat lens boards. I don't know which field cameras will handle this.

Jim Jones
21-Aug-2012, 08:00
One possibility is a 2x3 Century or Speed Graphic or similar 2x3 press camera. The sports finder on a Century or Speed Graphic may have to be removed to provide clearance for reasonable front rise with a suitable wide angle lens. A lens with enough coverage is necessary to use the front rise. Since 4x5 is far more popular for such work, finding an adequate 2x3 camera and lens may be relatively difficult. Unless film is an absolute requirement, this is one instance when a decent digital camera and proper postprocessing may be more practical.

Steve Barber
21-Aug-2012, 08:39
I am not familiar with your camera, however it seems close enough to a Crown Graphic that I would be comfortable with satisfying the following considerations:

1. How close can the lens board be to the film plane? Is the bellows fully compacted before the lens board is close enough to the film plane to allow focusing the image, at least at infinity? In other words, can you use the standard bellows or do you need a bag bellows to get the lens board close enough to the film plane to focus the lens and/or to allow for any movements when it is close enough?

2. When focused, at infinity, do the camera rails appear in the image? If so, how can you configure the camera so that the rails do not appear in your image? Can you drop the bed to lower the rails and get them out of sight? And, if so, does that leave you with enough front rise to accommodate perspective requirements?

3. Last, is the lens board large enough to accommodate the shutter and, with the lens on the lens board, can the lens be placed in the front standard without any interference between the lens elements, front or rear, and the parts of the camera such as the bellows and the front rails?

As to using a 90mm with a 6x7 roll film back, I think the 90mm is to long and you would be better off with a maximum of 65mm or 72mm. Specifically, one I would look at first would be a Rodenstock 65mm f4.5 Grandagon-N. Also, the shorter lenses, because the smaller format will allow them to have movements where, on a 4x5, they would be pushed to cover the entire frame.

Also, you need to be aware that on a camera such as the one you are considering, like the Crown Graphic, there is a joint that can be a problem when you have a lens that has the front standard sitting on it and you need to drop the bed to get the rails out of the image.

Joseph Dickerson
21-Aug-2012, 08:40
Chris,

You don't mention why you are photographing the homes. Historic architecture? Real estate sales? Internet virtual tours.

The actual use of the images will dictate what camera/format you should use.

If the images are going to be used on the web, it makes much more sense to shoot digital and use a Tilt/Shift or Perspective control lens. If you're going to shoot film, especially roll film, it might be easier to shoot with a roll film camera and use a PC lens. Both the Pentax 6x7 and Mamiya 6x7 systems offer wide angle PC lenses.

If you let us know what your final usage will be we will be able to give you much more useful advice.

JD

Ivan J. Eberle
21-Aug-2012, 08:56
I don't know of any MPP cameras that will have much provision for rise with short lenses because (very much like my Meridian), the case obstructs more than a small amount of rise. Linhof Master Technikas do feature an articulated flap that allows more rise with short lenses. All but the recent MT 2000 and 3000 models will require expensive focusing accessories for use with very short lenses.
A monorail with a bag bellows may indeed be bulkier, but I'd strongly recommend one instead of any of the folding metal box field cameras if your interest is architecture. They're also relatively cheap, and high quality. You might buy that MPP and whole monorail set up, for considerably less than an MT 3000.

Emmanuel BIGLER
21-Aug-2012, 09:05
portraying detached houses (which means not very high) in the suburbs.

Hello from France !
Without interfering with the choice of your equipement, this work by Daniel Bouzard in the Īle-de-France area (Paris and suburbs) seems to correspond to something close to your project.
http://www.galerie-photo.com/daniel-bouzard.html
The text is in French but the images speak for themselves.
In his project Daniel Bouzard has decided to ask the owners to be portrayed in front of their home. Many accepted, some refused.
But eventually following this route, Daniel had no problem of image rights with houses & owners, since he only took pictures with people who had given their consent.
My understanding is that people who accepted were probably proud and happy to be portayed "seriously" in front of their home with a view camera on tripod, i.e. exactly the opposite attitude of a stolen image.
All technical details are mentioned at the end of the article, as a summary, Daniel uses a 4x5" monorail, a Schneider 110 Xl lens, and prints on traditional sliver-gelatin + (selenium + viradon) toner.
The equivalent in 6x7 (56x70 - 56x72 mm) of the 110 mm for 4x5" (94x120 mm) is a focal length of about 65 mm as mentioned by Kirk.
a 90 mm in 4x5" would translate as a 55 mm in 6x7. Focusing a 55 at infinity may be difficult on some wooden field cameras.
A 65 mm is probably easier to focus on a wide range of very affordable 4x5" cameras.

RichardSperry
21-Aug-2012, 12:48
With your requirements I would get a Fuji GX680xxx.

To at least try out. You can get the whole camera kit and lens for the price of a good used 65mm LF lens.

sully75
21-Aug-2012, 13:06
For color on the cheap I suggest: shoot with a digital camera on a tripod, correct in photoshop.

Jim Jones
21-Aug-2012, 14:53
For many uses, you need neither a PC lens nor perspective correction in Photoshop. Use a wide enough lens to include all of the house in portrait orientation of the camera. If the back of the camera is in a vertical plane, the perspective will be correct. The foreground can be cropped off. You won't be using the full pixel count or film potential of the camera, which doesn't matter for images posted online or for small prints.

suchar
21-Aug-2012, 17:24
Big thanks for all the posts! This is very helpful :) I'll try to answer all the questions you ask.

I'm currently working on my projects with an analog Hasselblad and enjoy the film-photography routine (besides, if you want to find out what I'm shooting check my blog http://portretulicy.blogspot.com). What is more, actually the only lens I use is 80mm. I started working on the project about suburbs last summer with Mamiya RB67 and 50mm lens, but lacked the movements and after a while stopped. This project is something private, which may or may not turn into something bigger, therefore the quality of the image is important. I perceive it as a kind of sociological study. For sure the web-size images are not my target, rather the prints :) Perspective correction on a computer is a tool I sometimes use, but I don't want it to become the method. Moreover, movements would not only correct the perspective, but enable me to, for instance, change the proportions of the fence and the building behind it on the picture. 50mm on RB67 was often too wide, I could easily get away with something narrower (65? 70?). So, after last year's experiences I decided to seek for a LF.

Am I right to think that your suggestion is a monorail with a wide angle lens (let's say 65mm), as this kind of a kit should work better than a field camera? Would it be possible to buy such kit with the lens and a film back with $1000?

Emmanuel, this is a nice series, inspiring! Greetings from Poland ;)

Cheers,
Chris

Mike Anderson
21-Aug-2012, 17:33
A Calumet cc-402 would certainly go wide (short) enough, but it's on the heavy side and the roll film options are limited. Somewhat hard to find, but cheap.

rdenney
21-Aug-2012, 18:14
For a thousand bucks, you can build a very nice monorail kit based on a Sinar F or even F2, including a decent rollfilm holder and the correct bag bellows. The best lens bang for the buck would be a Schneider Super Angulon f/8, 65mm, which should also fit in that kilobuck total. It will easily mount on the Sinar using a flat board.

These are the cameras made for architecture work. You get more camera for the dollar with a good monorail than with a field camera.

The MPP is really a technical camera more than a field camera (which is good for your purpose). But a good one will cost more and still struggle with the shorter lenses. The best by far of that breed is a Linhof Technika, but not with your budget.

Other choices on the cheap end include a Pentax 6x7 and a 75mm shift lens, or even something as goofy as a Pentacon Six or Kiev 60 with the excellent Arsat 55mm PCS lens, if you can find one.

If you want to change the relative size of foreground and background objects, your first tool of choice will be moving the camera and using a different lens. That recommends the view camera approach, which does not depend on specialty shift lenses to support movements.

Rick "experienced with all these options" Denney

Frank Petronio
21-Aug-2012, 18:26
I'd get a shift lens for your medium format camera or perhaps a Hasselblad Flexbody.

Using roll film on a 4x5 camera will work but it not ideal. If you want to use 120 film, get a 120 camera.

Cambo, Arca-Swiss, Linhof, and others made view cameras for 6x9 - 120 film, perhaps one of those would work?

Ivan J. Eberle
21-Aug-2012, 18:43
$1000 budget all in makes it a bit challenging to recommend anything other than a good cheap monorail and bag bellows in 4x5. You can shoot a whole lot of 4x5 film for the difference between these and a fancy 6x9 that carries a premium being still useful w/a digital back (Arca, Linhof). Low end 6x9 monorails may not work as well in the wide realm (Galvins or Gowlands). Mid range monorails with bag bellows options don't readily come to mind (Okay, there's the Peco Plaubel, maybe, but what else?).

Joseph Dickerson
21-Aug-2012, 18:49
Both Frank and Rick have given you excellent, albeit contradictory, advise. I have worked using both of their approaches and there are advantages and disadvantages to each.

If you are close to a large(ish) camera shop with a rental facility I'd strongly suggest trying both using rental gear and see which is most comfortable for you.

As I mentioned earlier both Pentax and Mamiya have PC lenses for their 6x7 systems. However they both have but one lens, and both are 75mm lenses. I had a Pentax 67 with the 75mm PC and it was an incredible lens. If you think you'll need more variety of focal lengths then Frank's suggestion is the way to go. A Sinar F-1 is what I'm now using and it's much more adaptable to differing situations, easy to transport, and probably less expensive than a medium format system. Although if you still have the Mamiya and just need to add the PC lens that becomes a moot point.

The Sinar F/1/2 is a fantastic camera and quite cheap used. Versatile in the extreme, and most accessories are inexpensive as well.

Good luck,

JD

rdenney
21-Aug-2012, 20:28
I'd get a shift lens for your medium format camera or perhaps a Hasselblad Flexbody.

Using roll film on a 4x5 camera will work but it not ideal. If you want to use 120 film, get a 120 camera.

Cambo, Arca-Swiss, Linhof, and others made view cameras for 6x9 - 120 film, perhaps one of those would work?

Normally Frank and I are in sync on stuff like this. But I have to disagree about 6x9 view cameras. They tend to be less flexible, or more expensive than your budget, or both. The best ones are the gear-driven models intended to be a good fit with digital backs, such as the Cambo and Arca models Frank mentioned, but they are really expensive.

If you go with a native rollfilm camera, the shift lens is likely to be the only choice in your budget. The 75mm Pentax lens may run $600-700 (I paid half that for mine, but it's nearly beat to death), but a $300 body (with non-metered prism or waist-level finder) is not unusual. The 55mm Arsat, which is a very nice lens, will only run $300-400, and you can adapt it to a Mamiya or Pentax 645 camera, or get a Kiev 60 and hope it works.

The Flexbody and similar examples I've seen would blow your budget.

Rick "taking the thousand-buck budget seriously" Denney

Kevin J. Kolosky
21-Aug-2012, 20:38
Since you are already familiar with Hasselblad equipment, why not look around for a flexbody (if you want to use hasselblad lenses) or an arcbody that uses a rodenstock lens. that way you can continue to shoot 120 film.

You could also take a look at the Linhoff M679 Medium Format view camera so that you could still use 120 size film.

anglophone1
22-Aug-2012, 05:09
Emmanuel
Thanks for posting this, I have been thinking of a similar project in Ireland.


portraying detached houses (which means not very high) in the suburbs.

Hello from France !
Without interfering with the choice of your equipement, this work by Daniel Bouzard in the Īle-de-France area (Paris and suburbs) seems to correspond to something close to your project.
http://www.galerie-photo.com/daniel-bouzard.html
The text is in French but the images speak for themselves.
In his project Daniel Bouzard has decided to ask the owners to be portrayed in front of their home. Many accepted, some refused.
But eventually following this route, Daniel had no problem of image rights with houses & owners, since he only took pictures with people who had given their consent.
My understanding is that people who accepted were probably proud and happy to be portayed "seriously" in front of their home with a view camera on tripod, i.e. exactly the opposite attitude of a stolen image.
All technical details are mentioned at the end of the article, as a summary, Daniel uses a 4x5" monorail, a Schneider 110 Xl lens, and prints on traditional sliver-gelatin + (selenium + viradon) toner.
The equivalent in 6x7 (56x70 - 56x72 mm) of the 110 mm for 4x5" (94x120 mm) is a focal length of about 65 mm as mentioned by Kirk.
a 90 mm in 4x5" would translate as a 55 mm in 6x7. Focusing a 55 at infinity may be difficult on some wooden field cameras.
A 65 mm is probably easier to focus on a wide range of very affordable 4x5" cameras.

suchar
22-Aug-2012, 05:23
Guys,

I have at least two reasons which make me think of LF rather than MF. Firstly, I live in Poland which does not provide a rich market of used gear, especially the more specific one like Mamiya tilt-shift lenses. I'd already been looking for one I didn't find any. It is much easier to buy LF here, which includes even quite rare MPP (sold already) and Sinar gear as well. Buying on ebay is not easy, as this kind of stuff is usually not shipped worldwide. Secondly, I still consider going into panoramic photography, at least I want to have this option. B&W photography on LF is not that costly and I can afford. It seems to me LF is a better option, more versatile.

I'm not that familiar with Hasselblad gear, as in fact I use just one body and one particular lens ;)

What is now on my mind is "sell Mamiya, save a bit more, and get a decent Sinar kit".

Thank you!

Dan Fromm
22-Aug-2012, 06:29
Jim Jones, would you take one of your 4x5 Pacemaker Graphics out and measure how much front rise it has? I ask because 2x3 Graphics have around 19 mm and because a 4x5 Crown's minimum flange-to-film distance is 52.4 mm. On 2x3, a 4x5 Crown with a relatively modern 65 might do the job and will fit well inside the OP's budget.

OP, if you're willing to pay for delivery (check rates at www.usps.com) you should have no trouble buying in the US.

Jim Jones
22-Aug-2012, 13:18
Dan, the Century Graphic indeed has about 19mm of rise, but if the lensboard is closer than about 70mm from the GG, the sports finder contacts the camera body, limiting the rise to almost nothing. The Pacemaker SG and Crown have about 28mm of rise. The sports finder precludes using much rising front on the SG with less than 115mm from lensboard to GG, and less than 90mm with the Crown. On both, the bellows limits the rise for maybe 10 more mm from lensboard to GG. Removing the sports finder on all three models may help a little. I've used SGs on and off for decades, and this thread is teaching me new things about them.

Dan Fromm
22-Aug-2012, 14:01
Dan, the Century Graphic indeed has about 19mm of rise, but if the lensboard is closer than about 70mm from the GG, the sports finder contacts the camera body, limiting the rise to almost nothing.

True. That's why I dissected my Century's front standard and removed the sports finder.

Emmanuel BIGLER
22-Aug-2012, 14:28
Emmanuel, this is a nice series, inspiring! Greetings from Poland

Thanks for posting this, I have been thinking of a similar project in Ireland.

Thanks for your appreciation. You should feel free to contact Daniel Bouzard on y behalf, see at the beginning of the article for contacts. (http://www.galerie-photo.com/daniel-bouzard.html)

____________________________________

I'm happy to see Dan Fromm suggesting something based on a 2x3" (6x9 here in Europe) Press camera.
His suggestions to the original question will probably be much more affordable that what I'm thinking about (http://cgi.ebay.fr/Arca-Swiss-F-Line-C-6x9-Camera-/261075426525?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item3cc94edcdd) ...

... although an older model can be more affordable, and probably suitable for a 65 mm (but not shorter) ... (http://cgi.ebay.fr/ARCA-Swiss-6x9-Symmar-100mm-5-6-Mamiya-M-Adapter-Press-6x9-120-Back--/310382267245?pt=UK_Film_Cameras&hash=item4844398b6d)

but definitely not competitive in price with respect to a 2x3" Press Camera properly tweaked by a New Jersey Expert (http://www.galerie-photo.com/1-lens-6x9-dan-fromm.html) ;)

Jeff Keller
22-Aug-2012, 14:35
The Ebony SW cameras handle short focal lengths but even used are more than $1000. Some of the Shen-Hao models almost cover as short of focal lengths.
https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3164

The Canham DLC would also be good but is most often $1200-$1500 used.

Jeff Keller

suchar
22-Aug-2012, 16:08
Thanks once again! :)

I read all your posts and need to rethink my situation once more. I guess I may end with LF anyway (tempting, yes it is ;)), but rather a monorail. If any other question comes to my mind, I'll ask for sure - this forum is great!

Cheers

Deepak Kumar
26-Aug-2012, 00:28
Since I am using MPP VI 4X5 camera with 90 mm f4.5 Nikkor lens, I would contribute my two cents.
As MPP is technical camera, its is better then other field (read wooden or Light weight) cameras
in terms of functionality and features IMHO. Definitely easy to pack & carry. If one is not using it
for tall building and have little space to move back it can be useful tool to shoot architecture as well.

Using 120 back should not be a problem either, only thing that it should be working perfectly.

For curious, Yes I have to widen front standard opening for Nikkor Lens.

Andre Noble
31-Aug-2012, 07:20
A 90 roughly translates to a 65mm on 6x9 or a 47mm on 6x7. So you need a camera with very wide lens capabilities, preferably on flat lens boards. I don't know which field cameras will handle this.

Kirk you have probably shot 100x as much film as I have and I know you know your stuff.

But I was under the impression that it's divide by 3 for 4x5 (so a 90mm 4x5 lens/3 = 30mm lens equivalent on 35mm format) and it's divide by 2 for 6x7 (so a 43mm on 6x7 is roughly equal to a 22mm lens on 35mm film)?

So a 90mm for 4x5 is not really close to a 43mm on 6x7.

Kirk Gittings
31-Aug-2012, 07:33
You have to take the lenses that are available. This is from Hassleblad. There are few EXACT equivilents and unfortunately it doesn't list 6x9 which was my favorite for rollfilm for architecture, but you can see where the rough equivilents fall. As I always had to shoot a 35mm slide along with my larger chromes either 6x9 or 4x5, I know this works in real life by very slight adjustments of camera position. As a 35mm frame is not the same rectangle as 6x7 or 4x5 the slide always required some change in camera position to get in what was important anyway. When I was buying my lenses the 47XL was new and the only wide lens in that area worth a damn.

In other words, talking about using these in the real world, since you are talking about different formats with different aspect ratios there is more involved than just comparing the long dimension across formats.

bdkphoto
31-Aug-2012, 08:29
Big thanks for all the posts! This is very helpful :) I'll try to answer all the questions you ask.

I'm currently working on my projects with an analog Hasselblad and enjoy the film-photography routine (besides, if you want to find out what I'm shooting check my blog http://portretulicy.blogspot.com). What is more, actually the only lens I use is 80mm. I started working on the project about suburbs last summer with Mamiya RB67 and 50mm lens, but lacked the movements and after a while stopped. This project is something private, which may or may not turn into something bigger, therefore the quality of the image is important. I perceive it as a kind of sociological study. For sure the web-size images are not my target, rather the prints :) Perspective correction on a computer is a tool I sometimes use, but I don't want it to become the method. Moreover, movements would not only correct the perspective, but enable me to, for instance, change the proportions of the fence and the building behind it on the picture. 50mm on RB67 was often too wide, I could easily get away with something narrower (65? 70?). So, after last year's experiences I decided to seek for a LF.

Am I right to think that your suggestion is a monorail with a wide angle lens (let's say 65mm), as this kind of a kit should work better than a field camera? Would it be possible to buy such kit with the lens and a film back with $1000?

Emmanuel, this is a nice series, inspiring! Greetings from Poland ;)

Cheers,
Chris


The mamiya 75 shift lens should fit the bill - not certain if it will work on an RB but you can always pick up an RZ for real cheap:

http://www.keh.com/camera/Mamiya-RZ-Fixed-Focal-Length-Lenses/1/sku-RZ06000000750N?r=FE