Yosemite in the news---very sad.

[John Kasaian]

Sad stuff---one death from the hanta virus, two young boys tragically swept away on the Mist Trail, and eighteen more cabins in Camp Curry put off limits because of a threatening rock slide.

Aye carumba!
Whats going on?

Don't mess with the wildlife
Stay out of dangerous water
All that broken rock came from somewhere and Mother Nature ain't done doin' yet.

[Vaughn]

"What's going on?" -- the usual stuff, unfortunately. Sad about the boys -- national parks are not the safe amusement parks that people tend to treat them as.

[David Karp]

Absolutely Vaughan. We will not take our kids on that trail yet. Not old enough to know to be careful. We have seen so many people do stupid things in that park, including walking around on that slick rock at the top of Vernal Falls. We left, so we would not have to see disaster if it happened.

[Preston]

According to reports I have read, the two children entered the river below the Vernal Falls bridge. The river gradient is quite steep there, and the current is swift, even at low water. It wouldn't take much to pull a smaller person down. The whole episode is very tragic.

The hantavirus incident is even more insidious. The victims had no idea of the risk, and rightfully so, given this was a 'managed' accomodation at Camp Curry. Delaware North will be paying for this for a long, long time.

I think the attitude of many Yosemite visitors is that it's safe because of the infrastructure that's been put in place to make their visit easier with little 'apparent' risk; the paved paths, railings, the cables on Half Dome, sturdy bridges, etc.. In my opinion, perhaps many tragedies would not occur if these amenities did not exist.

"The chain of events leading to an accident happen relatively slowly. The accident happens fast." Alan Brunacini, Phoenix, AZ Fire Chief (ret).

--P

[Vaughn]

I would not hesitate to take my boys there at that age (about 6 yrs old). A 'simple' matter of proper supervision and experience.

And I have been lucky. I had a close call with my boys in the Merced River in the Valley. I had set up the 11x14 near the river, the boys playing on the shore. I went under the darkcloth and was focusing. I lifted my head up to check on the boys (they were about 5 yrs old) and all three were wading in the water up to their knees (and over the top of their rubber boots, of course) in an eddy, with the faster water just 4 or 5 feet further out. This was February, water moving very fast. Between their boots, the temp of the water, and their swimming skill level, I could have lost all three. A learning moment for all of us.

Another February several years later in Yosemite Valley, we were taking a night walk and one of my boys was on a log over the Merced. Coming back to the river bank, he jumped off the log onto what he thought was the shore, but it was just wood floating on the water. He only went chest deep, but it was a cold dip and a cold evening. He wore my vest back to the house.

It is a fine line between being overly protective and allowing one's kids to explore and learn about handling themselves in nature. There has been a few times I have other parents come up to me worrying about my boys, only to be shocked when I have said, "They are fine, they know how to handle themselves." They learned how to climb by falling from low heights. We have had a few broken bones and stitches -- but every instance has been either at home or at 'safe' playgrounds.

[Heroique]

Often when stopping for a rest & removing my pack – daypack or backpack – my impaired judgment & poor balance astonish me.

I’ll stay away from swift water & high cliffs, no matter how good the view.

Well, until I’ve had a breather, taken some water, and regained my bearings.

[John Kasaian]

I would not hesitate to take my boys there at that age (about 6 yrs old). A 'simple' matter of proper supervision and experience.

And I have been lucky. I had a close call with my boys in the Merced River in the Valley. I had set up the 11x14 near the river, the boys playing on the shore. I went under the darkcloth and was focusing. I lifted my head up to check on the boys (they were about 5 yrs old) and all three were wading in the water up to their knees (and over the top of their rubber boots, of course) in an eddy, with the faster water just 4 or 5 feet further out. This was February, water moving very fast. Between their boots, the temp of the water, and their swimming skill level, I could have lost all three. A learning moment for all of us.

Another February several years later in Yosemite Valley, we were taking a night walk and one of my boys was on a log over the Merced. Coming back to the river bank, he jumped off the log onto what he thought was the shore, but it was just wood floating on the water. He only went chest deep, but it was a cold dip and a cold evening. He wore my vest back to the house.

It is a fine line between being overly protective and allowing one's kids to explore and learn about handling themselves in nature. There has been a few times I have other parents come up to me worrying about my boys, only to be shocked when I have said, "They are fine, they know how to handle themselves." They learned how to climb by falling from low heights. We have had a few broken bones and stitches -- but every instance has been either at home or at 'safe' playgrounds.

I agree. Being overly protective invites bigger problems. Broken bones and stitches are a part of growing up. Two weeks every summer as a kid I spent in Yosemite Valley (where my big sister pushed my baby carriage---containing yours truly---into the Merced! Fortunately the water level was low.) A steady diet of interaction with the rangers up there drove deep in my mind being aware of the hazards of the run off and waterfalls. The years I spent in Madera County SAR gave me some insight as to how accidents in the forest can occur, but none the less, the family that lost those boys---my heart goes out to them!

[Vaughn]

The years I spent in Madera County SAR gave me some insight as to how accidents in the forest can occur, but none the less, the family that lost those boys---my heart goes out to them!

My mind can not even go to the place where I might have lost a child. Very sad.

From what I heard about the Kern (including from a diver that looked for bodies), it is one very dangerous, but safe-looking river.

Still, the roads and highways claim more lives -- and that is where my 'worries' will be the greatest...especially with 3 boys just turning 15.5 yrs old!

Vaughn

[John Kasaian]

Yeah the Kern is a bad one!
The only places on the Merced in Yosemite Valley my folks would let us swim or raft was below Stoneman Bridge down to where Curry now has the pull out for thier rafting concession, making me think that that section of the river must have been long known to be the safest (or least treacherous)
Except of course we'd fall into Fern Springs, lol!

[Vaughn]

I barely remember floating down the Merced on air mattresses -- some 50+ years ago while camping along the river (and watching the Fire Fall, too). But loved that...my brother and I would disappear from the campsite for hours. For us who spent the summers riding waves on air mattresses and body-surfing in the ocean, the river seemed relatively mellow. Don't remember stopping at Fern Spring until decades after that...long after I left home.

[John Kasaian]

I recollect getting as many air mattresses "connected" together as we could, perhaps ten or twelve or even fifteen kids in a chain.

[ROL]

Yeah the Kern is a bad one!
The only places on the Merced in Yosemite Valley my folks would let us swim or raft was below Stoneman Bridge down to where Curry now has the pull out for thier rafting concession, making me think that that section of the river must have been long known to be the safest (or least treacherous)
Except of course we'd fall into Fern Springs, lol!

These "mountain death" threads always degenerate into pissing matches over at Summit Post, but I have a few general, experienced comments about the two river systems. I've kayaked nearly all the main river systems in the West and especially California for upwards of three decades now In fact, I've recently returned from a 6 day solo run of the Middle Fork of the Salmon, in Idaho, and am making a movie and developing a site on solo self–support river running:


http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/SupportPics/LFPF/OuzelCamp2012.jpg

For the record, I've run the Merced from near Happy Isles to the old generator dam at the west end (also from El Portal to Don Pedro, etc.). It was easy class IV, with the section mentioned being a flat float.

The Kern, in its various incarnations below Brush Creek, is quite an underestimated, nasty river, uncharacteristic of other Sierra west side streams. It is brush choked with many undercut ledges. That, alone would make it dangerous, but that is not why people die on it. The numbers are great there because of its proximity and use by one of the largest population centers in the U.S. – LA. The visitation is simply greater than other rivers experience. While many "endemics" have poor swimming skills, and worse, judgement, the common and/or river sense of those entering it is no greater or less than on other rivers. The temptation of those, or those who are in charge of others, to cool off in the spring and summer, baking, road accessible Kern River Canyon and above Kernville can be an impossible lure for many who underestimate the power of even shallow water current.

[Vaughn]

Yes, it is my understanding that the combo of an unsuspected strong current and many unskilled people is what makes the Kern so deadly.

Up this way, the Trinity River can be equally, if not more dangerous, but the number of fatalities is low due to the remoteness (and very cold water that keeps the average person out of it.) Lots of rafting companies -- but they generally pull out before the Class 5 section.

My boys and I had a great day on the South Fork Trinity River last week -- not dammed, so the water is warmer (but getting too warm here soon -- algae growth and biting water bugs will make it unpleasent).

[goamules]

My basic rule for kids and water is if they are not strong swimmers, they don't go near it. I have 3 kids and have traveled a lot with them in wilderness and 3rd world countries. Having a non-swimmer wading in water, or even beside water with a drop off or current is extremely risky. One slip, one experiment to see how slippery that rock is, one too many steps deeper with a parent looking away or talking to someone has killed a lot of kids. Part of growing up is experimenting with everything, but don't let them do it in places where only one mistake is deadly. Shallow, small streams, yes. The wildest rivers in America? No. If they cannot swim, VERY WELL, keep them away and teach them to swim.

[John Kasaian]

In Yosemite, with the waterfalls, water becomes oxygenated and in turbulent areas swimmers loose the ability to float well, if at all. Just one more card stacked against ya'

[Vaughn]

The ocean beaches, especially up here in northern CA claim lives on a regular basis -- 'sneaker waves' (random waves of much larger size than average) knock people off their feet and pull them into the surf. The worst places are where the sand drops off very quickly and the waves break right on shore. The cold water (low 50'sF) quickly zaps their energy and they drown -- many times also claiming family and/or friends trying to rescue them. Average swimming skills make no difference.

I nurtured a strong fear/respect of the waves with my boys. Otherwise I would not have been able to take them to the local beaches like I constantly did as soon as they could walk. I favored beaches with creeks so that they had water to play in or at. Fortunately, my parents live in SoCal and eventually the boys learned how to handle the waves during visits...often in late November when the water was too cold for the locals, but warm to us! The breaking waves is another example of the water being filled with air and there being a loss of bouyancy.

[Ed Bray]

I'm watching a TV programme at the moment which is about the serial killings that happenned in Yosemite at the end of the last century. I had not known about this before today.

[Sevo]

In Yosemite, with the waterfalls, water becomes oxygenated and in turbulent areas swimmers loose the ability to float well, if at all.

Not a matter of oxygenation (water will only dissolve a few ppm of oxygen, not enough to change its physics) - the air bubbles in the whitewater decrease its specific weight so that a body won't float on it. On the other hand, whitewater is a highly localized phenomenon, and the bubbles also create a strong upward current, so that you get driven out rather than caught when swimming/diving underneath a waterfall. The danger zone, if any, will be some distance off where the water has picked up speed again.

[Drew Wiley]

Last I heard they believe the hanta virus was caught somewhere else, and that it is just
coincidental that the symptoms appeared when the visitor was in Yosemite. I just got back
from two weeks in SEKI backcountry, including quite a bit of off-trail hiking with LF gear.
Knees are still a little stiff, and it was imperative to get over the high crossings (6 of them)
before the thunderstorms slightly after noon each day. Only saw three other people the first week, and absolutely nobody once off-trail. Incredible country, but requires experience, good planning, and common sense. Oh and John, if you're tuning in, I finally
made it into the Pleistocene critter museum just north of Madera on the way home.

[NickyLai]

The BBC headline just came up: Deadly Yosemite virus warning to 10,000 US campers

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19447160

[John Kasaian]

I'm watching a TV programme at the moment which is about the serial killings that happenned in Yosemite at the end of the last century. I had not known about this before today.

Which ones? I assisted on the Foresta investigation ( I probably should post anything about it though!)

[Ed Bray]

Which ones? I assisted on the Foresta investigation ( I probably should post anything about it though!)

Cary Stayner was the killer.

[John Kasaian]

Cary Stayner was the killer.

He was an employee at a motel in El Portal and had access to the master keys IIRC. A very tragic crime.

[Drew Wiley]

It was a very convoluted story, John. There was a group of meth-heads in Longbarn which
were already under suspicion and one of them took a shot at a cop in Modesto, so this put
the FBI on the wrong trail completely for quite a while. They were even going to try them. Then another Yosemite victim turned up - a young female ranger, and they started looking closer to the Park. Cedar Lodge became a synomym for Bates Hotel. It was constantly in
the news around here. So is the hanta thing - last nite they reported visitation to Yos
Valley was down 20% compared to typical years, will lots of folks cancelling Curry Village
reservations.

[John Kasaian]

FWIW I noticed on the Delaware North site that they are looking to hire an assistant manager at Curry.

[Drew Wiley]

A third person just died from Curry Village hanta, out of eight known cases so far.

[ROL]

Fortunately, periodic rockfall from GP continues to obiterate more and more of those filthy CV canvas tenting eyesores. It's all part of a cycle, you see. ;)

[Vaughn]

And the last big flood took care of many of the employee ones...so they built a shanty town in a parking lot behind the post office.

[John Kasaian]

Two more Hanta virus deaths reported. One of the souls reportedly stayed at the High Sierra Camps and wasn't in Yosemite Valley.

[John Kasaian]

And the last big flood took care of many of the employee ones...so they built a shanty town in a parking lot behind the post office.

Vaughn, I thought most of the employees were now billeted in the newer permanent structures between Camp Curry and Camp 16?

[Vaughn]

The last time I was in the Valley (Feb 2012), the shanty-town was still populated -- perhaps they have been moved since then.

[ROL]

Two more Hanta virus deaths reported. One of the souls reportedly stayed at the High Sierra Camps and wasn't in Yosemite Valley.

Indeed, and I repeat: those filthy canvas tenting eyesores – no matter where they are located.

[Preston]

Fortunately, periodic rockfall from GP continues to obiterate more and more of those filthy CV canvas tenting eyesores.

My understanding is that the lodging that was closed due to rockfall are some of the wood cabins closest to the Glacier Point cliffs.


Vaughn, I thought most of the employees were now billeted in the newer permanent structures between Camp Curry and Camp 16?

The 'shanty town' is still there AFAIK, John. There are also employee dorms near Yosemite Lodge, and there is also a dorm just west of the Ahwahnee. In my opinion, employee housing should be moved out of the Valley and those old firetrap dorms demolished.

This Hanta Virus outreak is going to cost Scurvy Co. (aka Delaware N) a bundle. I am sad to hear people are dying from this.

--P

[Drew Wiley]

For all one can tell, the mouse mess with its virus could have been on stored canvas somewhere besides Curry Village. The high camps put it up seasonally. So they might have
a more widespread problem on their hands than initially appeared. I'd certainly not want to bet on the virus being contained to a few cabins. Mice are mobile! The stupid news channels around here is telling people just to stay at the hotel - yeah, sure... if you can wait a couple years for the reservation! The whole debacle wouldn't keep me out of the Valley in an appropriate season - I'd just camp somewhere else, and I routinely use hand sanitizer. Don't like crowds anyway. But there is a possiblity some rock climber will get his
fingers or nose into the stuff on some rock pile too close to the infected area.

[Frank R.]

Hello!
Before writing I should introduce myself. After a few years of reading, I think it´s time for a first posting in this forum. I´m coming from northern germany and photograph, mostly landscapes and architecture, now for 6 years with a 5x4 Sinar.

I think the Hanta virus is meanwhile a worldwide problem. I read the bad news from Yosemite with much concern. 18 years ago I visited Yosemite and was very impressed by nature. Here in germany we have already more than 2.000 infected persons this year. More then ever. Luckily the most deseases here are not so serious. The beechtrees in the forests had so much seed last year, that the mice could rapidly increase. Today I read, that each 5th mouse here is infected with the Hantavirus. If the dried excrements get as dust into the lung, an infection is possible. Our garden is just 300m away from the forest, so we are very careful when we go out. The most dangerous areas are barns and cabins, where it is dry and the mice can easily increase.
When I´m out with my camera in the woods I try to clean my hands regular and try to avoid making dust. My clothes I put in the washing machine. I hope it helps.

I hope for a cold winter that the mice population can decrease.


Greetings Frank

[Drew Wiley]

Frank - hanta is still quite rare here as a human disease, even though its endemic in wild
mice. I have never heard of anyone contracting it by just camping or trekking through the
woods or desert. Unfortunately, the strain we do have seems to be extremely dangerous.
Maybe that's because people tend to get diagnosed too late, or maybe it is in fact especially potent. With a fatality rate of thirty to forty percent, it's pretty spooky, and
even survivors can have lifelong horrible health effects. Really a tragedy, especially since
just a little chlorine or other common disinfectant spray will kill the virus.

[John Kasaian]

Hello Frank, welcome to the forum!
I had no idea the Hanta virus was so wide spread.

[Vaughn]

... In my opinion, employee housing should be moved out of the Valley and those old firetrap dorms demolished...--P

I suppose so, but the in-park housing for seasonal employees is one of the draws for those employees (it is not the high wages!). My stint with the Fred Harvey Co on the South Rim of the Grand Canyon would not have been as rewarding (1977 -- $2.20/hr minus $0.90 for room and board) if not for living right there on the rim (first right behind the Bright Angel Lodge, then in the 'married quarters' where my girlfriend and I got to live.) Walking along the rim at sunrise to my job (opening the gas station) is something I'll always remember. Moving into the married quarters meany I no longer walked along the rim, but through the woods instead. But the Grand Canyon has the advantage over Yosemite in that dorms could be put where visitors would never see them -- almost unlimited space back in the juniper/pine forest. Water is the problem -- it is pumped from across the Canyon itself to the dry South Rim.

One aspect of moving all seasonal employees out of Yosemite Valley would be the additional traffic (be it buses or personal vehicles) of employees getting to and from work...and the resulting clogging the already crowded roads, and increased danger -- especially in times of bad weather. Employees work all hours of the day/night.

[Preston]

I certainly agree with your observation regarding Yosemite, Vaughn. The older dorms really are a disaster waiting to happen--old wiring, poor HVAC, heavy fuel loading and outmoded construction. I wish I had a solution, but I don't. We all know that overcrowding in YV has been an issue for decades and equitable solutions are still unrealized.

--P

[Vaughn]

For about 20 years, when visiting Yosemite, I stayed with a friend who lived in the various houses directly behind the AA Gallery -- sweet. The shanty town certainly upped the local population and noise.

No easy solution, to be sure...except for to stay out of the Valley as much as possible!

Vaughn

[Drew Wiley]

It's really a pity seeing Yosemite run more like a theme park than an alleged wonder of
nature. But with that many visitors, they need quite an infrastructure. Down the canyon from us in a tiny little hyroelectric company town there was a kid who was quite a whiz
at math, who later became a nuclear engineer. He wanted to work in Yos Valley so he could meet girls, then went around bragging to everyone how he had been accepted in
an engineering position. Turned out to be a bit of a surprise when he learned what a
Sanitary Engineer actually does.

[ROL]

My understanding is that the lodging that was closed due to rockfall are some of the wood cabins closest to the Glacier Point cliffs.

Both, actually, over a period of some 20 years or more, and from different areas of the the cliffs below GP – the recent period of instability following the reawakening of the Long Valley Caldera in the early 80's, which included seismic activity in the Valley (not diminishing the ongoing effects of freeze/thaw!). Some cabins (tent or wood) are so long gone from their placements that the forest has started to recover from both rockfall and human occupation. I seem to remember that some of the slabs I had climbed once upon a time on the apron didn't have any visible means of attachment, though most of the rockfall events have originated from the headwall cliffs above.


Anyway, I was only trying to make a point, perhaps too subtle for the venue and the rigorous minds here. I'm out. :)

[Robert Budding]

It's really a pity seeing Yosemite run more like a theme park than an alleged wonder of
nature. But with that many visitors, they need quite an infrastructure. Down the canyon from us in a tiny little hyroelectric company town there was a kid who was quite a whiz
at math, who later became a nuclear engineer. He wanted to work in Yos Valley so he could meet girls, then went around bragging to everyone how he had been accepted in
an engineering position. Turned out to be a bit of a surprise when he learned what a
Sanitary Engineer actually does.

Yes, there are a lot of visitors to Yosemite. But the crowds thin out once you're 1/4 mile from the trail head. So there are advantages to the increasing rate of obesity!

[John Kasaian]

The Valley isn't wilderness and hasn't been for hundreds, maybe thousands of years. If you think it is a zoo now, you should have been camping there in the 1960s with hippies camping illegally and crapping in the meadows, and every camper & travel trailer in the 8 western states wedged in between the trees at the drive in camp grounds. The canvas tents at Camp 16 were heaven by comparison and quiet. It's a shame they replaced the tents with that concrete and relite DP camp (very poor radio reception in the valley. We used to see pie plates on the car radio antenneas! of course radios were all there was for music besides singing or instruments back then) Too bad they replaced them with that concrete and relite DP camp :(

[John Kasaian]

Yes, there are a lot of visitors to Yosemite. But the crowds thin out once you're 1/4 mile from the trail head. So there are advantages to the increasing rate of obesity!

I liberally apply traffic jelly to myself in order to sqeak through the crowds on the Mist Trail:rolleyes:

[RichardSperry]

Looking at those tents, I'm surprised they haven't killed anyone with mold yet.

[Drew Wiley]

John - maybe I told this before - but my babysitter as an infant was allegedly the first white woman ever in Yosemite. Since she was well into her 90's when I was born, it is at
least possible that this was true. Her stories were told to my parents, then passed on to
me by her daughter when I took care of their garden as a kid. But when she arrived in the
Valley, many of the Indians were stark naked and still lived in bark huts, which is pretty
much what the hippie lifestyle replicated anyway!

[John Kasaian]

John - maybe I told this before - but my babysitter as an infant was allegedly the first white woman ever in Yosemite. Since she was well into her 90's when I was born, it is at
least possible that this was true. Her stories were told to my parents, then passed on to
me by her daughter when I took care of their garden as a kid. But when she arrived in the
Valley, many of the Indians were stark naked and still lived in bark huts, which is pretty
much what the hippie lifestyle replicated anyway!

Yeah, deer mice could pretty much come and go as they please as well---I've seen reprouctions of the native granarys for storing acorns---so how come we are first seeing signs of the Hanta virus now? Yosemite valley has been a sizeable popuation center for a long, long time. I don't recollect hearing about the natives keeping pet cats or terriers? This is very puzzling unless the Hanta was recently introduced to the park.

[Drew Wiley]

Well they did keep dogs, John. They also routinely cleared meadows etc with fire. And there were probably a lot more minor predators running around than today in the Valley.
The Indians were also quite a bit more hygenic than either hippies or the gold miners of the
day. Somewhere in the family archives we've actually got tintypes of exactly the kind of
Indian village I've described, with naked Monache (not Ahwahneechee) Indians standing
in front of their huts and granaries. The wide-angle distortion was severe, but I eventually
located that exact site, and remarkably, there was still a couple of ramshackle cabins on it,
with one old descendent of the original inhabitants still chipping arrowheads on the porch
for nostalgia. There were some left there when he died, mostly bottle glass rather than
obsidian, but still in the distinctive traditional neigborhood pattern. But I never personally
ever even heard of hanta in the Sierra until that gal ranger from a severely "pet" mouse
infested cabin in Mammoth died from it.

[Vaughn]

The ten years I worked on the wilderness trails, we were based out of an old log cabin -- inside walls were covered with 1/4 plywood, beams about mid-forehead height. I never slept in there -- the noise from the mice running in between the plywood and the logs was too noisy. I slept out on the ground with the rattlesnakes and occasional bear...and occasional sound of the belly rumbling of the mules.

But we cooked in there and hung out in there if the weather was bad, but most of our time was spent outside. And most of the time we'd spend only a night there, head off into the wilderness for 10 days, come back out, unpack and then head down the hill for 4 days off and resupply. So except for a week or so getting the station re-opened in the Spring, we did not spend a whole bunch of time there. Guess we were lucky. We certainly raised some dust when we re-roofed it. Nice spring water, too. One gets spoiled.

[John Kasaian]

Well they did keep dogs, John. They also routinely cleared meadows etc with fire. And there were probably a lot more minor predators running around than today in the Valley.
The Indians were also quite a bit more hygenic than either hippies or the gold miners of the
day. Somewhere in the family archives we've actually got tintypes of exactly the kind of
Indian village I've described, with naked Monache (not Ahwahneechee) Indians standing
in front of their huts and granaries. The wide-angle distortion was severe, but I eventually
located that exact site, and remarkably, there was still a couple of ramshackle cabins on it,
with one old descendent of the original inhabitants still chipping arrowheads on the porch
for nostalgia. There were some left there when he died, mostly bottle glass rather than
obsidian, but still in the distinctive traditional neigborhood pattern. But I never personally
ever even heard of hanta in the Sierra until that gal ranger from a severely "pet" mouse
infested cabin in Mammoth died from it.

True, I'd forgotten that they kept dogs. I doubt if the fires would have killed much of the wildlife---even with current conflagrations I wonder how many the critters actually get trapped? During the Yellowstone fire I heard that the buffalo herds just moved out of the way, letting the fire takes it's course. Preston could likely fill us in.

[Drew Wiley]

Vaughn - we had an alcoholic gold miner down the canyon from us who lived in a filthy rat
infested shack with holes all through it. He slept on a rat-turd-sprinkled old mattess with only a filthy blanket, and drove an old hearse also filled with rodent poop. Ironically he owned forty thousand acres, which he paid taxes on, and when he died, left an estate
worth millions. I truly wonder where hanta came from - maybe mice hitchiking in cars from
the Southwest? Or maybe the mice just need a certain critical mass for the virus to spread, which all the routine coyotes and bobcats and raptors keep in check. But locally,
there not even an Indian tradition about hanta like there is in the Southwest. Whatever -
it's still extremely rare, and while it might make me think twice about staying in an unsanitary cabin, it wouldn't prevent me from camping in any true outdoor place. The local
news media are making a panic out of it, of course, and telling everyone never to sleep on
the ground anywhere, but then they also think every coyote around is out to eat them!

[Drew Wiley]

If you're still tuned in, John, the interview the Park gave yesterday made perfect sense.
There has been an abnormal population explosion of mice due to all the junk food and scraps laying around those cabins. In the meantime (my own added observation) is that
a number of the remaining would-be predators have themselves become garbage addicts.
You can tell it by the mangey look of the coyotes in the Valley - not a normal diet. What
they didn't want to say, but have now been confirmed otherwise, is that the State Health
Dept has recently given them two firm warnings about the mice, which they didn't pass along to the public until after the crisis arrived.

[John Kasaian]

Thats interesting Drew, I don't doubt that there is a mouse explosion or that the predators would prefer Twinkies to rodents, but that doesn't explain how the Hanta virus got into the area, or if it was in the area all along why to took until now to be discovered (what with all the wildlife biologists running around YNP!) I agree that the lawyers are going to have a field day with this one, though!

[Drew Wiley]

It's apparently endemic. But how do you track the epidemiology of something so rare?
The Park itself has had two official cases in its entire 100-plus year history, prior to this.
Being from the Sierra myself, nobody my generation or previous ever heard of it or anything
like it. By contrast, we know when Lyme disease arrived. By similarity, boubonic plague has
been endemic in Calif ground squirrels as long as this kind of thing has been monitored, but
actually cases of humans getting it are very rare indeed - not like living in a rat-infested
port back in the Middle Ages. Right now the Monterey area is having a rabies outbreak among foxes, allegedly due to all the unvaccinated dogs attached to illegal immigrants.
All it takes is some significant change in the overall equation to set the norm off balance.
In the Southwest it's known to be abundant rain years and ample forage raising mouse
populations; in Yosemite, it's ample snacks in poorly cleaned cabins.

[John Kasaian]

I remmber trailering in some stock to Bridlevail horse camp twenty years ago and a cute lil' mouse fell out of a tree, slid down the windshield of the truck and scampered off of hood!

[tgtaylor]

Aw, dat aint notin'. Check this out:

http://photos3.meetupstatic.com/photos/event/5/7/5/9/600_9202361.jpeg

and see the whole story here: http://www.meetup.com/SF-Bay-Area-Photographers-Explorers/photos/640144/9202357/#9202357

Thomas

[Sevo]

It's apparently endemic. But how do you track the epidemiology of something so rare?


Hanta itself does not seem to be rare. Indeed, recent tests suggest that something like 10% of the population in Persian Gulf countries - which previously had not even been considered affected at all - have antibodies. But severe cases are very rare. The regular form, a mild cold followed by a passing back ache, generally did not even cause a visit to the family doctor, and even if, the latter was very unlikely to report to the CDC.

Hanta originally was discovered statistically, and for a long time appeared to exist only in homogenous young groups (like armies and schools), where statistics can work and kidney diseases are unexpected. Only recently it made it back to attention, when molecular tests appeared. As a cause for probably less than one fatal kidney failure per million its rare severe form long escaped all recognition unless when part of one of these statistically evident outbreaks - even more so back in Phenacetin days, when one in a hundred destroyed their kidneys with their regular painkillers - and the even more exotic pulmonary variant was not even known 20 years ago.

[rdenney]

Hanta itself does not seem to be rare. Indeed, recent tests suggest that something like 10% of the population in Persian Gulf countries - which previously had not even been considered affected at all - have antibodies. But severe cases are very rare. The regular form, a mild cold followed by a passing back ache, generally did not even cause a visit to the family doctor, and even if, the latter was very unlikely to report to the CDC.

Hanta originally was discovered statistically, and for a long time appeared to exist only in homogenous young groups (like armies and schools), where statistics can work and kidney diseases are unexpected. Only recently it made it back to attention, when molecular tests appeared. As a cause for probably less than one fatal kidney failure per million its rare severe form long escaped all recognition unless when part of one of these statistically evident outbreaks - even more so back in Phenacetin days, when one in a hundred destroyed their kidneys with their regular painkillers - and the even more exotic pulmonary variant was not even known 20 years ago.

Meaning: It may have occurred in Yosemite far more often in the past than has been recorded as such. Viruses are like that.

Even Lyme Disease, which is not a virus but a nice, big bacterial infection, defies consistent diagnosis. The CDC's diagnostic standards are very narrow--far more narrow than anecdotal evidence would suggest--and not really backed up by the sorts of clinical trials that can be persuasive. The reason is the same as for Hanta: Despite that those spirochete bacteria are big, they drill themselves down into tissues normally difficult to access without a deep biopsy (i.e., not blood) and go dormant. The test looks for antibodies, which are not conclusive because the antibodies come and go in different stages of the infection. And the test excludes the antibodies that were related to the virus variants used for a short-lived vaccine, despite that very few people actually took that vaccine during its short life. If they actually had a molecular test of some sort, where they used biopsies of affected tissues to culture the bacteria directly, they might find a little more truth. But that is expensive and painful.

Here in Loudoun County, Virginia, Lyme is at epidemic proportions (no exaggeration). The deer population has exploded, the rodent population has exploded, and both are waiting for the decade-long cycle of predators to catch up. We are seeing signs of bear, coyote, snake, owl, rapter, and fox populations rebounding in response to all that fresh meat, so the pendulum will eventually swing. But for now, any rodent-borne disease is a huge problem.

Where I live in a rural area, really controlling the mice population is a joke. I have five acres of pine woods around my house--the mice have plenty of habitat. I can keep them out of the house (knocking on wood), but they are everywhere else--in my garden shed, in my utility vehicles, in my motorhome, in my flower beds--everywhere. I watched one jump into a hole in the sand of a horseshoe pit as I was mowing Monday afternoon, laughing at me as he disappeared (or so it seemed to me). They do enormous damage--I've had to trace wiring, vacuum hose, and (most frighteningly) fuel hose damage in most of my vehicles, and I can't keep anything resembling textiles in my motorhome when not in use. I have installed hardware cloth cages on the air intakes of the air conditioners in my non-daily-driver vehicles after they all had surprise mouse nests in the blower fans. And both trucks are showing "check engine" lights this year--probably a chewed vacuum hose or a mass-air sensor damaged by the chewing of the air filter that were problems in both vehicles. I don't know how I would prevent exposure to Hanta, and it scares the hell out of me. Lyme-infected ticks are bad enough--they are very tiny in their nymph stage (when they like those mice) but just as infectious.

Rick "whose wife is suffering from the long-term effects of Lyme, despite that the CDC insists there are no long-term effects" Denney

[Drew Wiley]

Not likely - more likely certain old world strains and new world ones are quite different,
and ours here does appear to very rare in humans and highly virulent. The CDC seems to
be on top of it. Just like anything else that is rare there were probably undiagnosed or
misdiagnosed cases, but there's no evidence of anything common about it in terms of human cases. Speaking of spirochetes and specific strains, just look at the havoc syphilis
caused when versions of it crossed hemispheres. Native populations had no resistance to
foreign strains. Even the common cold was typically fatal to native Americans at first.
But when Lyme arrived in the West, I know some people whose lives were utterly ruined
by the time anyone recognized what it was, probably too late for effective treatment.
And it was something new. Gosh, my sister caught it this Spring and is allegic to antibiotics, and barely survived the treatment itself. But at least the lyme was stopped
before it got too far. During tick season I stay on formal trails as much as possible and
avoid the bushwacking I otherwise love to do.

[Sevo]

Not likely - more likely certain old world strains and new world ones are quite different,

There is no doubt about that - the different strains have different names and a well-identified regional spreading.


and ours here does appear to very rare in humans and highly virulent.

But that remains to be seen. Arguably, the American strains (more so the South and Central American ones) are capable of causing Hanta Pulmonary Syndrome, which does not seem to occur elsewhere. But something in the order of ten deaths per year in a population of 300 million does not really make it "highly virulent" as long as we must assume the uneventful infection rate in the US to be high as elsewhere.

[Drew Wiley]

It does not spread from person to person, but once symptoms develop there is at least a
30% death rate. Again, compare to boubonic, which was once the scourge of Europe, but
has always been extremely rare here even though it is also undeniably endemic in common
rodents. I've heard of one case in Calif this year, and we have a huge population, with a great many people in either suburban or rural areas in potential contact with ground squirrel fleas. One endemic location is right in the middle of a major city and within eyesight
of an international airport! That's why it's officially an open space an not built on. The health dept can keep an eye out on the burrows through routine testing, and if necessary
sprinkle for fleas. There are also legends among the Navajo of our SW making it highly probable that deadly hanta epidemics occurred at long intervals related to exceptional rains. If the outbreaks were common there would be anitbodies and some resistance to them among native populations. They
also have a strong taboo against mice in dwellings.

[Drew Wiley]

Another odd thing that comes to mind is that hanta can afflict people in their prime and skip the young and elderly - something perhaps related to metabolism. And related to another Navajo saying, that a strong warrior can only be killed by a mouse! Similar characteristics have been reported in Gobi desert hanta. Now I'm certainly no expert at this, obviously, but have had a few conversations with those who are - that is, to the
extent they aren't surmising themselves. It's a poorly-studied virus. And that three deaths
make Yosemite a "cluster" of international proportions tells you just how rare it is. That's
less than the gang war fatatilites on our city streets around here on any given day.

[Harrison Braughman]

The term Hantavirus is derived from the Hantan River area of South Korea. The Hantaan Virus (HTNV) was isolated by Dr HO-WANG LEE in 1978? (Dr. Lee's research was prompted by viral outbreak during the Korean War which infected some 3000 UN soliders.) HTNV is one of several hantaviruses which causes Korean hemorrhagic fever (HFRS). In or around 1998 Dr. P.J. Padula et al discovered microbological evidence of person to person transmission of HTNV, during the 1997? Argentina HTNV outbreak.

There is also evidence HTNV maybe the culprit for the "sweating sickness" during the 1485 Medieval England Battle of Bosworth Field. There is also evidence HTNV was present during WWI/WWII; the American Civil War; there is documented history of HTNV being active in far east Russia for centuries; and there is anecdotal evidence HTNV existed in early man cultures.

[Drew Wiley]

Thanks Harrison. It's interesting (and sometimes scary) how these things get sleuthed.
The local university guys have done a lot of work on Lyme, esp the mysteries of the intermediate hosts, and it pretty remarkable what they've uncovered. Fortunately, the rate of tick infection locally is far lower than on the East Coast. When I was young I was
actually offered a key position monitoring state wildlife for disease, but it fell thru due to
the very strick state ethnic hiring guidelines back then (the specific job never was filled);
but all the state lab work is still done up the street here near the University. It's quite a
facility, possibly second only to the CDC.

[Drew Wiley]

In today's paper there was finally a reasonable summary of the hanta event. The year prior
was exceptionally wet and the mice had abundant natural forage well into autumn, esp pine nuts. This led to a population explosion. Then the winter was unusually mild. Combined
with the fact that the newer tent cabins were much better insulated in the old ones, and
had plenty of food scraps, meant that far fewer mice died off during winter; and they naturally concentrated in the cabins. Apparently the virus has a certain threshold before it
easily spreads among mice, always linked to population explosions following wet years with
abundant food. Although the first monitored US outbreak was in 1993, there is strong
circumstantial evidence for Southwest outbreaks in 1918, 1933, 1994, and according to
tribal tradition, even long before. Right now the next concern in Yosemite is to keep mice
out of the bear boxes, which are not currently rodent-proof (yeah, a lot of mousie poop in
those things!).

[Ivan J. Eberle]

Right now the Monterey area is having a rabies outbreak among foxes, allegedly due to all the unvaccinated dogs attached to illegal immigrants.

Drew, are we? I live here, talk to wildlife officials all the time and I'm hearing no buzz about it. All I can find is this:
http://otterrealm.net/article/public-health-scare-sink-your-teeth

There have, however, been a couple of cases of Bubonic Plague in the U.S. this year. (It's endemic among ground squirrels here, but not epidemic-- yet.)

The switches and triggers that cause a latent pathogens to become epidemic are not well understood, yet.

[Drew Wiley]

Yep, Ivan ... the health dept has been going around the rural areas warning folks about
rabies. My sister lives in Aromas and there's been a number of rabid animals picked up out
there. Do you live in town? Boubonic plague is very closely monitored in Calif and that's why outbreaks are almost nonexistent. They trap the squirrels in known hot areas, knock
them out with ether, comb the fleas and send them in to the state lab up the street here.
If something turns up, they move in with appropriate insecticide around the burrows. I think there was one human case in Calif last yr. Unlike hanta, it's treatable with antibiotics
if caught early.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

Could be there have been animals picked up in Aromas, but surely it's not yet epidemic in Monterey County? Just nothing about it in the media and my wildlife contacts aren't talking about it, but I'll ask around. Maybe it's flying under the radar, but these things typically trend the other way, they're hugely overblown in the media, most times.

Glad to hear they're simply knocking squirrels out to collect their fleas. Keenly aware that the ground squirrels used to be subject to mass poisonings. Coated millet seed gets broadcast by helo. Buddy of mine still has a plaque commending him for his 80% kill ratio over 100,000 acres in South County. Compound 1080. All for a disease that no one much ever got. Competition for grazing in cattle country was the real point of the attempted squirrel-extirpation exercise.

San Joaquin Kit foxes that cleaned up the squirrel carcasses were very nearly extincted. Coyotes were essentially extirpated locally in Carmel Valley by 25 years ago: rarely seen...curiously non-vocal then. But numbers are coming back hereabouts, nowadays yappity as one might expect.

[Drew Wiley]

Ivan - you're in a tourist town and the dirty little secrets rarely come out in local news.
There's also a much higher incidence of lyme in that area than up here (still low compared
to New England). Cowboys didn't like squirrels because the horses sometimes got hurt by
the burrows. Coyotes seems more interested in gophers, and it's the badgers that really like ground squirrels (it's those huge badger holes that really scare folks riding horses). We
have a good coyote population up here, but I really miss my Sierra property where big packs would form choruses right around the house. They're smart and learned a long time
ago about poison. A lot of the old-time anti-wildlife extermination projects were pretty stupid. I lived across the road from a sheep ranch, and the coyotes never bother them.
Domestic dog packs did. The coyotes prefer rodents or rabbits, and mtn lions prefer deer.
Squirrels don't compete much with herbivores.