Where to purchase large paper to print on

[superbowl2265]

Hi there, I am looking to get started with lf photography. One of the reasons that I want to make the move to lf is to be able to print high resolution large prints (somewhere around 40"x50", maybe larger). I already have an area in my house designated for a darkroom, and will have the room to print at this size assuming one thing...I can find the right paper. What kind of paper do other people use to print around these sizes? Am I mistaken, would I have to have it printed for me for this size?

Sorry for the newbie question and thanks in advance,
Evan

[ki6mf]

To do this size at home a few questions. Color Assuming you have a color print processor and are printing from negatives yes you can order rolls of film in 40 inch widths. Printing from Chromes it used to be you could order Cibachrome in larger size prints however I do not know if this is being sold any more. For Black and White you need to contact someone like Ilford and see if you can order the size you want. Be prepared for long long long lead times. An alternative is to create your own paper by mixing your own chemicals. The alternative is to scan the negative do post in Photoshop or equivalent and have it printed by a good lab.

[superbowl2265]

Thanks, I appreciate your help. I primarily plan to shoot b &w so I'll shoot Ilford an email. Also, I hadn't really considered the making my own paper, so I will definitely look into that.

[Vaughn]

With your screen name I will assume you are in the USA. Freestyle sells rolls of B&W paper -- around 40" wide and 30' to 100' long.

Finding the paper will be the easy part. :)

[vinny]

Get set up to make some 16x20's first. B&h or freestyle has everything you need.

[Brian Ellis]

If I was going to make prints that large in a home darkroom I think the first thing I'd do is make sure I had an assistant to help me move the wet paper around without wrinkling it. Then I'd look into rolls as Vaughn suggests. I think it's unlikely that Ilford would make a special run of paper cut to that size just for you even if they have the equipment to do it. And if they do the cost would probably be staggering.

[vinny]

If I was going to make prints that large in a home darkroom I think the first thing I'd do is make sure I had an assistant to help me move the wet paper around without wrinkling it. Then I'd look into rolls as Vaughn suggests. I think it's unlikely that Ilford would make a special run of paper cut to that size just for you even if they have the equipment to do it. And if they do the cost would probably be staggering.

Before you make statements like that.......

Like I said, b&h has everything needed:http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ns=p_PRICE_2%7c1&ci=802&N=4288586366+4291407242&srtclk=sort

Bob carnie, clyde butcher, and others make large prints. Not sure why others couldn't.

[Kodachrome25]

Before you make statements like that.......

Like I said, b&h has everything needed:http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ns=p_PRICE_2%7c1&ci=802&N=4288586366+4291407242&srtclk=sort

Bob carnie, clyde butcher, and others make large prints. Not sure why others couldn't.

+1, I have never had an issue getting mural paper in a week or two, B&H's lead times are pretty much spot on.

[Brian Ellis]

Before you make statements like that.......

Like I said, b&h has everything needed:http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ns=p_PRICE_2%7c1&ci=802&N=4288586366+4291407242&srtclk=sort

Bob carnie, clyde butcher, and others make large prints. Not sure why others couldn't.

I don't know what you mean by "before you make statements like that." Like what? All I said was that he should have an assistant to help him move the wet paper around - which I think he should - and he should use roll paper rather than trying to special order cut sheets from Ilford. The paper in the B&H catalog link you provided is roll paper, which of course I know is readily available, otherwise I wouldn't have suggested he use it. So I don't know what new information you think you're giving me with the link.

I know that Clyde Butcher makes large prints. I visited his darkroom in Florida some years ago. I still remember the tall vats of chemicals and the ladders used by the assistants (plural) to access them. It wasn't a set-up that would be feasible for most home darkrooms but then it isn't the only possible set-up either. If the OP wants to give it a try I certainly wouldn't (and didn't) try to discourage him.

[marfa boomboom tx]

Buy, from the usual suspects. 40 inch paper seems the wides now; used to have (dupont) much wider for BW.

use "roll trays" instead of flat trays. The souping technique is ancient. Troughs filled with chemicals; exposed paper rolled-up.
Insert paper; roll out some into "other" roll -- repeat. This technique was used to make life sized prints for auto-shows. It worked with color too... just more trays, a little wider.

It replaced the lay out paper, use sponges and mops, technique.

[Kirk Gittings]

Evan, you didn't mention how much experience you have making prints in general? If you are new to it I would start with prints anywhere near that large.

One thing to note (I have done a ton of very large b&w prints over the years). Every method I tried was pretty messy and required-not just a dark room-but a very large dark room with ventilation and floors that wouldn't matter if they stained and could be wet mopped..

Also think about how you are going to dry them?

To be completely honest? I personally wouldn't think about doing it myself now any method but printing digitally. It solves sooooo many problems related to making big prints like negs poping from the heat of looong exposures, handling problems, drying problems, etc. etc. I wish I had a dollar per square foot for every print I trashed just because they were out of focus from the negative popping or had handling marks. If I had to do it traditionally I would send it to a lab who does it professionally.

[vinny]

Kirk,
I can't believe you weren't using glass carriers.

Brian, I didn't read your post carefully. Sorry bout that.

[Kirk Gittings]

Why not ask first and spare yourself the disbelief? Did you try glass carriers? Yes. Life in the SW with multiple surfaces for dust collection-blown up huge. Want to spend a week spotting a 40x60 print with hundreds of dust spots?

[vinny]

Why not ask first and spare yourself the disbelief? Did you try glass carriers? Yes. Life in the SW with multiple surfaces for dust collection-blown up huge. Want to spend a week spotting a 40x60 print with hundreds of dust spots?

Aah yes, the southwest. I had a hell of a time with them when I lived in los angeles which is prolly the dirtiest place on the continent. Much better now that I'm in michigan.

[Vaughn]

We have our intermediate students make 40"x60" prints every semester (usually from 4x5 negs).

We use troughs (about 48" wide or so -- using RC paper). Two students on each end of the print, and the print is see-sawed through the troughs. Prints washed in a sink in the method described by Marfa. Once washed they are squeegeed on a large table, then tacked onto a wall and dried with a hair blow-drier. A bit rough, but it works -- especially considering that it is the first time for the students.

Doing 20x24 prints would be a heck of a lot easier!

Vaughn

[tgtaylor]

Imagine a 22x30 (or larger!) gold-toned well executed Vandyke or Kallitype on a high quality 140lb hot press paper! The darkroom at the San Francisco Parks and Recreation has a mural section complete with 30x40 trays. You bring the paper and gold and they supply the rest.

Thomas

[marfa boomboom tx]

... Two students on each end of the print, and the print is see-sawed through the troughs. Prints washed in a sink in the method described by Marfa. Once washed they are squeegeed on a large table, then tacked onto a wall and dried with a hair blow-drier. .....

Vaughn

V: we used a wash Wall... sheet plastic on plywood at angle... into rain gutter... turn on spray heads. Oh, the paper was pulled out slightly at top, so that water could get the back of the prints.

These things were done for TV stations around the nation, as well as restaurants etc... by the many hundreds.


Done using home-made horizontal enlarger in a room with a vacuum wall. Ah, those were the days.

[LF_rookie_to_be]

Imagine a 22x30 (or larger!) gold-toned well executed Vandyke or Kallitype on a high quality 140lb hot press paper! The darkroom at the San Francisco Parks and Recreation has a mural section complete with 30x40 trays. You bring the paper and gold and they supply the rest.

Thomas

30x40"! Been thinking of building those, too. For now three 25x31" trays suffice. 24x30" FB prints aren't really that difficult to handle. Just got another roll of EMAKS, not particularly expensive. If you like RC, find a big sewer/drainage pipe at a construction site and make a cupped drain/fill lid. Did perfectly developed 36x42" color prints recently in one such pipe. Simply go ahead and try it!

[Kodachrome25]

Evan, you didn't mention how much experience you have making prints in general? If you are new to it I would start with prints anywhere near that large.

One thing to note (I have done a ton of very large b&w prints over the years). Every method I tried was pretty messy and required-not just a dark room-but a very large dark room with ventilation and floors that wouldn't matter if they stained and could be wet mopped..

Also think about how you are going to dry them?

To be completely honest? I personally wouldn't think about doing it myself now any method but printing digitally. It solves sooooo many problems related to making big prints like negs poping from the heat of looong exposures, handling problems, drying problems, etc. etc. I wish I had a dollar per square foot for every print I trashed just because they were out of focus from the negative popping or had handling marks. If I had to do it traditionally I would send it to a lab who does it professionally.

When I considered years ago doing darkroom work again, the question Evan asked is one of the first questions I had....how big can I go, even if I never went that big. Sometimes people just want to know what the limits are. Yes, murals can be a tough and expensive road and if I were not making an income off of photography, I probably would not go there. But I am making a living off of it and prints that big can go for thousands around my parts.

This is not a one size fits all pursuit, so if a guy wants to try on a pair of moon boots, well I say more power to him...:-)

That said, 20x24 still feels big to me so I agree with start smaller and work your way up. 16x20 might be my favorite size to print as both 120 & 4x5 do really well on it.

[ROL]

Before you make statements like that.......

Bob carnie, clyde butcher, and others make large prints. Not sure why others couldn't.


Because "we" are experienced at it – and the darkroom in general.


I self–censored (deleted) my first post because I felt it was unnecessarily harsh for a first time poster. With the limited information given by the OP, it was difficult to know how to best help him achieve his goal – because those goals and his darkroom experience were not well communicated. Given the responses of others, I can in retrospect see that my post was in line and possibly even less abrupt than the general feeling. And BTW, anybody can make large prints, even good ones if the subject matter and negative support it, one is careful, consistent and plans ahead (traits not always present in the "artistic"), has sufficient room to work, yada, yada, yada.

[bob carnie]

My comfort level is 30 x 40 inch murals off film up to 11x14 inches. It is possible only because we have spent years modifying our working space to maximize ease of paper handling.
This did not come cheap, we scroll large paper murals 30 inch by 12 feet every two weeks here ,This paper is exposed on the lambda and the rip unit places the images and we found that 9-12 feet works well and then after the prints are fixed we cut them down to their individual sizes, and I have 7 monster trays to make my 30 x 40's flat.

Space, good glass, aligned enlarger, good sinks, good trays, good water supply and drainage, good disposal, and then a whole shitload of chemicals are required to make prints that shine.


A young man in British Columbia has built the largest silver gelatin darkroom that I am aware of in the world.. His goal is to make 50 inch by 84 inch silver gelatin , gold tone murals from 8x10 and 11x14 semi stand PYro cat negs.
When he is ready to pound his chest I am sure he will announce, His darkroom is in the last stages of completion, I am in complete awe of this young man and if he is any indication of the young photographers of today, then I am happy.
He has offered me his space to make the monster prints and I will take him up on his offer.

[superbowl2265]

Thanks for all of your replies everyone, as far as roll paper goes, that looks like it will be my route for now. I apologize for not clearly communicating my experience a little more, I would consider myself pretty experienced for 35mm and digital work. I still use a darkroom a lot but really was starting to get frustrated at the noticeable grain and errors that came along with printing large (16x20) for 35mm. I really wanted a more in depth (and rewarding) experience, so large format seemed like the way to go. As far as the debate for an assistant goes, since I don't do this professionally or anything I will most likely have a friend help me out.

Thanks again,
Evan

[bob carnie]

You absolutely do not need an assistant to make murals.

Thanks for all of your replies everyone, as far as roll paper goes, that looks like it will be my route for now. I apologize for not clearly communicating my experience a little more, I would consider myself pretty experienced for 35mm and digital work. I still use a darkroom a lot but really was starting to get frustrated at the noticeable grain and errors that came along with printing large (16x20) for 35mm. I really wanted a more in depth (and rewarding) experience, so large format seemed like the way to go. As far as the debate for an assistant goes, since I don't do this professionally or anything I will most likely have a friend help me out.

Thanks again,
Evan

[superbowl2265]

One quick question about drying that I have, when I would print 35mm I always would squeegee the print after it had been through the wash, and then would put it on a screen to dry. For something this large would it be ok to just hang it vertically when it's still wet? I know someone earlier mentioned a hairdryer, but would that be necessary? Couldn't you potentially ruin the paper?

[vinny]

Here's a recent long thread on addressing that question:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?91155-Drying-HUGE-fibre-prints

[bob carnie]

I squeegee large prints and I place face down, laying face up without squegee is flirting with huge whoopass.
I print murals every month and have been doing so for over 15 years I have seen the problems firsthand and am not guessing here or imagining what happens with large murals.


One quick question about drying that I have, when I would print 35mm I always would squeegee the print after it had been through the wash, and then would put it on a screen to dry. For something this large would it be ok to just hang it vertically when it's still wet? I know someone earlier mentioned a hairdryer, but would that be necessary? Couldn't you potentially ruin the paper?

[Vaughn]

...I know someone earlier mentioned a hairdryer, but would that be necessary? Couldn't you potentially ruin the paper?

We use the hair dryer on RC prints -- never a problem (and this is with students dong it -- and they are good at creating 'problems'!)

FB paper might have an issue with uneven drying.

[Kirk Gittings]

"You absolutely do not need an assistant to make murals."

But it sure does help! :)