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Meekyman
10-Aug-2012, 12:50
Hi Folks,

I'm thinking about getting into large format photography (landscapes) and am taking a workshop early September where I'll get to play with several cameras. If I get the bug, I've been thinking about a camera to get. Factors which are important to me are weight (but bearing in the mind the rest of the kit needed, maybe that's over emphasised??), rigidity and, as I'm new to all this, ease of use. I'd eventually plan on using lenses from 90-210 mm and do like longer lengths, so 300 (nikkor/fuji), 450 (fuji) etc in the future as well. So the ability to extend the bellows with minimum fuss would be good.

I don't mind wood or metal and am currently thinking of chamnoix 045n-2 (light, $900), toyo 45AX or AII (heavier, ~$500) or Toho if a used one ever comes up for sale. I know the toyo would limit me to Telephoto lenses. Is 300mm non-tele with toyo and focusing less than infinity possible?

I then came across the Shen Hao XPO (https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3420) and have read that this has >400mm bellows yet all the published data is 350mm maximum and also claimed that as a non-folder it is more rigid. Does anyone out there own this camera? Are the rigidity claims true? What advantages are associated with a non-folder like this? Are the centre tilts better/more useful than base tilts? How portable is such a camera in the field as it doesn't fold into a small space at all??

I know there's no end of threads like this, but please be patient as I read little about this camera!

Cheers

Graham

Roger Thoms
10-Aug-2012, 16:06
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?57638-Shen-Hao-4x5-prototype-Sinar-compatible-and-72-400mm-range-All-in-a-Field-Camera&highlight=Sinar


This may help.

Roger

evan clarke
10-Aug-2012, 18:28
I have one and it's a very good camera. I have a couple non folding Shen Haos and a couple Ebony non folders. No putzing around with folding/unfolding, just mount the camera and go. I have a Sinar shutter which goes on my XPO for use with barrel lenses. It's a lot of camera for the price, I got mine from Badger Graphic..

Meekyman
11-Aug-2012, 06:42
Hi Roger,

Thanks for the link. Think I've read series of posts before and am aware that Lachlan717 was involved in the development of this camera. Need to understand a bit more about Sinar mounted lenses first I think? Aren't the Sinar lens boards bigger than your linhof/technika type?

Thanks

Graham

Meekyman
11-Aug-2012, 06:46
Hi Evan,

Thanks for the reply. Good to see that someone owns one of these!

I don't have any lenses with Sinar shutters, so that wouldn't be so important for me and not sure, at this stage of understanding, why they would be advantagous...maybe you could enlighten me?

I read that the camera has 400mm of bellows. From experience is this true or only true of the prototype made for Lachlan717 mentioned in Roger's posts? Could it handle a fujinon c 450mm with a top hat extending lens board? Can you use a lens in a technika/linhof lens board and fit some sort of adaptor to the camera, so that the bulk of the lenses are reduced? How do you pack the camera? Is it light enough for field use? Would you recommend it to a beginner....is it complicated to use in any way (separate controls for different movements/zero detents/smooth focussing track etc.?)?

Really appreciate your time.

Cheers

Graham

ki6mf
14-Aug-2012, 17:15
I have the predecessor to this camera the Shen Hao HCZ II. The XPO compares to the Chamonix. For what you are looking to shoot the XPO probably would work. For the 400mm you may need to extend the lens with a lens extender going on the front standard. The alternative is to look for a view camera with a rail extension. The question is will you really shoot with those longer length lenses? I shoot landscapes and rarely go to my 210 lens. I usually use a 135, 90 MM or shorter length. You can not go wrong with Shen Hao and Badger Graphics is also a first rate as a dealer.

Lachlan 717
14-Aug-2012, 18:03
The XPO compares to the Chamonix.

Can you please explain this statement? I'm not sure what features/functions you're referring to when you make this comparison.

Thanks.

Light Guru
14-Aug-2012, 18:07
Can you please explain this statement? I'm not sure what features/functions you're referring to when you make this comparison.

Thanks.

Meaning the two cameras are comparable to each other aka vary similar.

Lachlan 717
14-Aug-2012, 18:16
Meaning the two cameras are comparable to each other aka vary similar.

Wow. Thanks for explaining what "comparison" means.

polyglot
14-Aug-2012, 18:28
I have a Toyo 45A and would not expect to be able to use a non-tele 300mm lens with it. I can sorta-kinda do 1:1 with a 150mm lens, which is 300mm of total extension and involves the bellows being a bit over-straightened and a lot of care to prevent deformation. I can use a 240mm lens on it but max magnification (from memory) with that is enough to only just do a torso portrait and certainly no headshots.

If you want a good 45AX or 45AII, expect to pay more along the lines of $700-$800 than $500 unless you can get lucky.

ki6mf
14-Aug-2012, 19:09
The XPO has standards that pivot in the middle. A heavy lens may balance easier with a center pivot. This is mostly a personal preference with a wood field camera. In addition this style may give your more movements than with a bottom movement standard. Again it may be more than you need. The HCZ will fold up into a box, with the lens removed and protects the camera body for transport. I rarely use this so again feel its not all that important.

evan clarke
15-Aug-2012, 04:13
Hi Evan,

Thanks for the reply. Good to see that someone owns one of these!

I don't have any lenses with Sinar shutters, so that wouldn't be so important for me and not sure, at this stage of understanding, why they would be advantagous...maybe you could enlighten me?




I read that the camera has 400mm of bellows. From experience is this true or only true of the prototype made for Lachlan717 mentioned in Roger's posts? Could it handle a fujinon c 450mm with a top hat extending lens board? Can you use a lens in a technika/linhof lens board and fit some sort of adaptor to the camera, so that the bulk of the lenses are reduced? How do you pack the camera? Is it light enough for field use? Would you recommend it to a beginner....is it complicated to use in any way (separate controls for different movements/zero detents/smooth focussing track etc.?)?

Really appreciate your time.

Cheers

Graham


Hi Graham, Please email me and I will return some info and make some pictures of it or a little video. I have a 450c and will see if it draws on the camera tonight. Evan

evan clarke
15-Aug-2012, 04:15
Meaning the two cameras are comparable to each other aka vary similar.


These two cameras are not similar in any respect other than they make photographs. The XPO doesn't fold and has full back movements...

Robert Budding
7-Sep-2012, 06:33
The Shen Hao XPO has a bellows draw of 360mm. You can have one customized, but it adds $100 to the cost, and shipping from China is $100.

Lachlan 717
7-Sep-2012, 07:04
I just received this from Mr Zhang (Shen Hao):

"Your prototype XPO45 was made for 400mm extension as your request, after that, we reduced it to 360mm which can satisfy most customers' need with a significant narrow on the ground plate. Now its only 130mm on length and 2.6kg on weight.
I dont clearly remember the dimensions of your prototype, but I believe that the XPO now is more compact than yours though 40mm less in focus range."

evan clarke
7-Sep-2012, 07:48
Still an excellent camera. I have a Sinar shutter mounted behind the lensboard and have a simar to Technika LB adapter . All my brass lenses are mounted on Technika boards..very compact setup..

Joseph Dickerson
7-Sep-2012, 08:59
Meekyman,

To answer one of your questions, I used to have a Toyo 45A, should never have sold it but that another story, and used a 300mm APO Ronar on it by simply mounting the lens on a reversed recessed lens board. This allowed relative close focus but I don't remember exactly how close.

Keep in mind that the flange distance, distance from the lens board to the film, varies on different 300mm lenses. It's something you need to consider when shopping for longish lenses. Also telephoto lenses require roughly 2/3rds of their focal length in bellows draw which gives you more options.

I also used a 300mm Geronar on a Shen Hao with no problems. This was on the HZ version, which has a shorter bellows than the XPO.

I'm currently using a Sinar F1 and find that although it's bulkier, it really doesn't add that much weight to the kit as compared to the Shen Hao. Plus used Sinars and accessories are plentiful on the ground, at least on this side of the pond.

Getting started in large format, and sorting through all the information available can be confusing, but it's really worth it. And you've found the best place to sort it all out...just keep a generous pinch of salt handy.

If you go to Toyo's (USA) web site you'll find an article I did comparing the Toyo CF and the Shen Hao. It's found under "what people are saying about the 45CF. It might be helpful.

JD

Robert Budding
7-Sep-2012, 13:29
Still an excellent camera. I have a Sinar shutter mounted behind the lensboard and have a simar to Technika LB adapter . All my brass lenses are mounted on Technika boards..very compact setup..

Agreed. I ordered mine from Badger Graphics this week. A custom camera with 400mm of draw would take close to 2 months to arrive (and would be $180 more with delivery added), so I'll use a top hat board if I decide to shoot a 300mm lens.

BradS
7-Sep-2012, 14:10
Agreed. I ordered mine from Badger Graphics this week. A custom camera with 400mm of draw would take close to 2 months to arrive (and would be $180 more with delivery added), so I'll use a top hat board if I decide to shoot a 300mm lens.


With 360mm of bellows, the standard XPO would allow one to focus a 300mm lens as close as about 1.8 meters.

Robert Budding
7-Sep-2012, 17:46
With 360mm of bellows, the standard XPO would allow one to focus a 300mm lens as close as about 1.8 meters.

I can live with that. But I'll wait to see if the 360mm of bellows draw is the true value of if it's a marketing number. Either way, I really am looking forward to getting my new camera.