Technika V - cams and rangefinder... questions [Archive]

mortensen

4-Aug-2012, 12:16

First a disclaimer - I have searched and didn't find answers to my stoopid questions ;)

Just got a wonderful Technika V, which came with a cam and infinity stops for a 150mm lens. I've learnt so much that I need cam and lens to be matched, i.e. I need a new cam to match one of my lenses. Here comes the questions:
- you can only have one cam on the camera, right? I know the question sounds stupid...
- how much, approximately, is it going to cost me to have it done?
- does the rangefinder match the focal lengths field of view or is it solely a focusing aid allowing you to avoid the gg?

I'm asking all of this because I initially wanted to strip the rangefinder, but got second thoughts. I like the idea of handheld shooting, but somehow find it a bit unlikely to ever happen. If I ever got the chance to shoot aerial, handheld would be the only way, I guess. But in that case, an infinity stop, a sportsfinder and a grafmatic would do the trick, right?

But in order to really benefit from the rangefinder, one need at least two cams simultaneously, I would (dare) say. If I strip the rangefinder and the cam, can it be reinstalled by a skilled technician?

Please offer your insights. And as an end note - what a dream of a camera! I really look forward to using it.

E. von Hoegh

4-Aug-2012, 12:23

The rangefinder is solely a focussing tool. Just look through it, you'll see.

One cam on the camera at one time, yes.

DO NOT REMOVE THE RANGEFINDER!!!! HERESY!!! Why would you think you would need two cams? There's only room for one.

Bob Salomon might know the cost to have a lens cammed. On the V and later, the cam needs only to be matched to the lens, earlier models needed the cam cut for a specific lens and body.

mortensen

4-Aug-2012, 12:35

DO NOT REMOVE THE RANGEFINDER!!!! HERESY!!! Why would you think you would need two cams? There's only room for one.

haha :D well, I use more than one lens! Hence, it would be nice to use the rangefinder for more than one focal length. If I can only use with, say, my 150 its use is quite limited. Do you use yours 'always' or only in specific situations?

David A. Goldfarb

4-Aug-2012, 13:34

The cams can be slipped in and out easily, and you need a different one for each lens, if you want to use them with the rangefinder. Only one may be installed in the camera at a time. I have six, but you don't really need for all of your lenses to be cammed--just the ones you think you are likely to use with the rangefinder. I've used all of mine at one time or another, but the ones I use most are 135mm, because that's my fastest lens, and 150mm, because that's a compact lens that closes in the camera.

If you have at least one cammed lens, you could get a focus scale for a second lens (or more than one), and use is like this: Say you have a cam for a 150mm lens, and you want to use the rangefinder with a 90mm lens. Focus with the 150mm cam in place, read the distance on the focusing scale for 150mm, then refocus to that same distance on the 90mm scale.

Bob Salomon

4-Aug-2012, 13:58

Why not download the Master Technika instruction book from the Linhof web site under the service tab? The camming instructions for the Master and the V are the same.
Ask the service center in your country for camming charges. Camming also includes the infinity stops and focus scale for the lens being cammed.

mortensen

4-Aug-2012, 16:42

thanks - it starts to make more sense :) didn't realize that the cams could be interchanged so swiftly.
I'm reading the manual and getting slightly wiser on the machine.

... one last question: If I someday should decide to perform the ungodly act of removing the rangefinder and the cam, can it then be reinstalled (provided I did a good job)?

Brian Ellis

4-Aug-2012, 16:55

haha :D well, I use more than one lens! Hence, it would be nice to use the rangefinder for more than one focal length. If I can only use with, say, my 150 its use is quite limited. Do you use yours 'always' or only in specific situations?

I think there's a fundamental misconception going on here. The rangefinder is usable for all lenses for which you have a cam. You have a different cam for each different focal length lens. When you want to use Lens #1 with the rangefinder you insert the cam for that lens. When you want to use Lens #2 you remove the Lens #1 cam and insert the cam for Lens #2. You can't and don't need to use more than one cam at a time but you can use the rangefinder for all lenses as long as you have a cam for each one. Removing and installing a cam is very simple, it takes maybe 5-10 seconds.

As for cost, I don't know about Denmark. However, when I talked to the authorized Linhof repair center here in the U.S. about having a cam ground I was quoted a price of $250 per cam as I recall. However, that was at least 10 years ago, I'd guess it's more today. I bought a used cam for a 150mm lens and it seemed to work fine even though it wasn't ground specifically for my lens. Again, I don't know the situation in Denmark but in the U.S. I used to see used cams for different focal length lenses available on ebay for about $30. If you can find one at a price like that it might be worth a try to see if it works with your lens.

I wouldn't remove the rangefinder. People do it to save weight and if done professionally it can look o.k. But to me if the camera was made with a rangefinder it should stay on there, especially considering that you save little weight by removing it.

David A. Goldfarb

4-Aug-2012, 16:56

If you don't wreck anything in the process, the rangefinder can be reinstalled, but really, why take the risk, and why own a rangefinder Technika, if not for the rangefinder? It doesn't add much weight, and if it's there and you have cammed lenses, you can use it for portraits with the camera on a tripod or focusing in low light--not just shooting Weegee-style. If you want a Technika without a rangefinder, better to get a Tech 2000 or 3000 that will be easier to use with wide lenses.

mortensen

4-Aug-2012, 17:21

Thanks, Brian and David - I think the penny finally dropped.
I see your points and I won't remove the rangefinder. The cam I have doesn't match my 150 Sironar-W and I probably won't spend $300 and up for a cam in the near future... but I might at some point, which - as you suggest - justifies leaving it on. I wanted to remove it mainly to make it more compact and have fewer movable parts inside the cavity (weight is not really a concern).

I have a Technikardan 45S already, so I have all the movements and wide angle capability I could ever ask for - the Tech V is a supplement for going more compact for landscape and travels. Can't wait to get to know it better.

Bob Salomon

4-Aug-2012, 19:30

"... one last question: If I someday should decide to perform the ungodly act of removing the rangefinder and the cam, can it then be reinstalled (provided I did a good job)?"

And what woud you gain? The rangefinder does not weigh all that much and then you have to add a plate to cover the hole where the rangefinder housing was. And you have devalued the camera.

Thomas Greutmann

5-Aug-2012, 05:53

I did remove the rangefinder from my Master Technika because I had to do it to install an in-housing focusing track for wide angle lenses, similar to the wide-angle focusing device inside the Technika 2000/3000. It is a complex job to get it removed - little ball bearings and things falling all over the place - and it would be even more complex to get it reassembled again. Installing the rangefinder again is a factory job I think, I couldn't do it myself. If you don't plan on a major conversion leave the rangefinder where it is. It will not bother you in any way.

As for the rangefinder cams: although the Linhof factory will advise to have each lens properly cammed and adjusted by an expert it is definitely possible to do it yourself, by installing used cams and infinity stops which you will find quite often. I have thus over time set up my old Linhof IV for rangefinder focusing with 7 lenses, ranging from a 90mm Grandagon to a 360mm Tele Xenar, with 135mm, 150mm, 240mm and even a 250mm Imagon in between. For most lenses with the same focal length the same cam will work. For instance, I use a single cam for both a 150mm Apo Ronar and a 150mm Symmar-S. That works very well. The only exception so far was a 150mm Xenotar which seems to need a special curve on the cam. For all other lenses I could match used cams perfectly to the lenses, long distance and near distance focusing works.

Rangefinder focusing is handy for people photography or other occasions where you want to use the camera handheld. For landscape or architecture you can go without, using ground glass focusing.

Greetings, Thomas

mortensen

5-Aug-2012, 10:45

Thanks, Thomas - just the info I needed. This Tech V is already a DIY project - new PU bellows, ground glass from Steve Hopf and black leather from cameraleather.com is on the way :)
So, the crucial question, how do you adjust a cam to make it work with a different lens than the one it was cammed to (same focal length of course). there's a cam for a 150 on the camera already - how do I adjust it to my 150 Sironar-W?

thanks...

David A. Goldfarb

5-Aug-2012, 11:23

If you want to try using a non-matched cam, first rack the focus all the way in, point the rangefinder at a distant object, and see if the rangefinder can focus on an object at infinity. If the superimposed images don't meet when pointed at a distant object and the focus is pulled in all the way, then the rangefinder is out of calibration to begin with, and needs to be serviced, but if it does focus on infinity, lock the focus at that point and slide the front standard with your 150mm lens on it, checking the groundglass with a loupe, so that the lens is focused at infinity. So at this point you've got the rangefinder, groundglass, and lens all agreeing on where infinity is.

Now unlock the focus rail and try to focus on some near objects with the lens wide open, comparing the groundglass focus to the rangefinder focus. Do they agree at 10m? 5m? 3m? 1m? If they do, you're in luck. Just set the infinity stops in front of the front standard, and you'll always be able to set up the camera quickly for rangefinder use.

If not, you can do more testing to determine how useful the cam is to you without having it matched to the lens and decide whether it is worth it to you to set the infinity stops, which will make a permanent indentation on the focus rail. Maybe it is good wide open to 5m, and stopped down two stops at 1m, for instance.

If you have an unmatched cam, you could have it reground for your lens of the same focal length, saving the cost of the part. If the actual focal length of your lens is slightly shorter than the actual focal length of the lens the cam was ground for (a "150mm" lens may be a bit less or a bit more, and there can be sample variation, which is why lenses are cammed individually), it should be easy. If your lens is slightly longer, then it may be necessary to thin the cam a bit to make it larger before machining it for your lens. A properly cammed lens will focus accurately wide open using the rangefinder to a near distance of around 1m for a 150mm lens.

Frank Petronio

5-Aug-2012, 11:41

Properly done the rangefinder works amazingly well. This sounds like a "beater" camera that you don't want to invest a lot of money into but it is really nice if you cam a lens that is compact enough to fit inside the folded camera, like a 135, making a very convenient package for quicker photos.

Thomas Greutmann

5-Aug-2012, 12:35

David gives a good description on how to set up a cam and a lens including all the fine-tuning. That is exactly how i adjusted mine.

Some additional things to consider if you plan to set up the camera with a whole set of lenses.
- Short, wide angle lenses will be set up with the rail in retracted position, long lenses with the rail extended by one or two stops.
- There are different type of infinity stops: some straight up in the middle, some straight up in one corner, some pointing back, some smaller, some bigger. Mix these in a clever way so you can marks stops for lenses that are very closely spaced.
- If you have many lenses cammed with different colors it is a good idea to carry a little cheatsheet with the camera, so you know which lens goes where and if the rack needs to be pulled out or back. I always forget this.
- Sometimes two lenses may require an infinity stop very closely together, say one millimeter or so. You will have to use the same infinity stop, and you can adjust position of one lens by putting a spacer on the lensboard so the lens moves forward just that little bit.

Greetings, Thomas

mortensen

5-Aug-2012, 12:53

thanks again, all of you... will look into it.
Actually, the camera is quite a beauty - no corrosion, allmost intact leatherette (I just prefer a different color, that all...) and smooth movements all over, no skips in the gears etc etc... so, the camera is actually worth investing both time and a dime in, hence new bellows, gg and leatherette.

mortensen

5-Aug-2012, 23:11

OK, just tried it this morning. The rangefinder works fine at infinity with the focus rack pulled in. When I slide out my 150, it seems to be approx. 4mm shorter than the infinity stops, i.e. it focuses at infinity 4mm before hitting the stop. I checked it roughly down to around 3m and it seems to be spot on. So, from your fine recipe above, I should just move the infinity stops in to match the lens' position at infinity, right?

I'd say that I'm about to see the very big potential of that little thing! ;)

Bob Salomon

6-Aug-2012, 03:15

Thomas Greutmann

6-Aug-2012, 05:48

Brian Ellis

6-Aug-2012, 06:02

Frank Petronio

6-Aug-2012, 07:22

You can always hit the cam with a Bastard file ;-)

Neal Chaves

6-Aug-2012, 18:32

Frank has a good idea, but actually you need a very fine file and probably a small hammer and anvil. Mount your 150mm lens and set the infinity stops. Then check the rangefinder focus at a number of distances from close-up to infinity. Focus at a point on the ground glass and then see how the rangefinder image matches up. If you need to extend the track to make the rangefinder coincide, there is too much metal on the cam at that point. If you need to bring the track back, the is not enough metal on the cam. Mark these spots with a Sharpie pen. High spots can be filed down. Low spots can be stretched out a bit by tapping with the hammer on an anvil and then touched up with the file. I used Linhofs and cut cams for them for many years. Many factory cams for Technika IV cameras showed sings of being hammered as above when originally fitted to cameras.

Cutting a new cam, or reworking an old cam involves a lot of "putting it in and taking it out".

mortensen

11-Aug-2012, 13:40

a delayed thanks for your further replies and tips. I'm getting wiser on the little machine I've bought. Bellows and ground glass have arrived - just waiting for the new leather and a pixi screwdriver to adjust the infinity stops and further explore the cam.

A little 'end question' to all you experienced technika owners: your favorite lens that fits inside the camera when closed?
All of mine have way too big front elements. Any tip for something in the 150-ish range with a large aperture?

David A. Goldfarb

11-Aug-2012, 15:13

I have a 150/4.5 Xenar that came cammed with my Tech V, but most of the modern 135-150mm f:5.6 plasmats in a Copal 0 shutter will close with the camera.

Bill_1856

11-Aug-2012, 17:51

. The cam I have doesn't match my 150 Sironar-W and I probably won't spend $300 and up for a cam in the near future... tter.

The cam may work better than it first appears. The difference between cams seems to be more in locating the infinity position, than in the shape of the cam.
It's been my experiece that if you focus the rangefinder on something moderately close (say 10 feet, or 3 meters), then lock the bed and carefully focus your lens by squeezing the little locks at the base of the front standard and moving it carefully back and forth on the track until the ground glass image is in exact focus, then the rangefinder image will probably track the focus of the lens quite well. Move the infinity stops to this position on the rails and you've got a rangefinder-focused lens, at least between 4 or 5 feet to infinity.
I have found this to work for several lenses, but as they say, it may not work for yours. It's an easy thing to do, and worth the effort.

Thomas Greutmann

12-Aug-2012, 00:44

A 150 Symmar will fit when closed, so will a 150 Apo Ronar. A 150 Symmar-S will fit also if you reverse it for transport (rear lens element pointing forward).

Greetings, Thomas

Bob Salomon

12-Aug-2012, 02:39

"will fit also if you reverse it for transport (rear lens element pointing forward)"

If the 150 Apo Sironar N or S or the Symmar or Symmar S are properly mounted on the 001015 lens board then the camera will close with the lens on the camera without changing the position of the lens from taking position.

Frank Petronio

12-Aug-2012, 06:31

If you mount it in the proper semi-recessed board, even the 135/3.5 Xenotar will close but it is ever so close - Linhof has figured this out for most likely lenses and made a large number of lensboards with precise spacing to get the lens to close (or in the case of wide angles, to hit the focusing track optimally). It is hard to underestimate the labor and engineering they put into figuring this minutia out.

You get what you pay for, in every case I've found it better in the end to spend the money on doing it right and having Marflex or the factory person in your area work on it with real OEM parts.

David A. Goldfarb

12-Aug-2012, 07:18

Also, if you have it done properly, lenses can share one set of infinity stops, like 90/150 or 75/135. With the shorter lens, you push the rail back one stop to compensate for the difference in focal length.

Thomas Greutmann

12-Aug-2012, 07:57

If the 150 Apo Sironar N or S or the Symmar or Symmar S are properly mounted on the 001015 lens board then the camera will close with the lens on the camera without changing the position of the lens from taking position.

Bob, thanks for the hint, I wasn't aware of this. My Symmar-S is on a flat board. I just tried it with a recessed board and everything fits and closes nicely. Much more convenient this way of course.

Learnt something.

Greetings, Thomas

richard700

14-Dec-2013, 22:29

Just wondering - how far are you from the "infinity" object on which you're focusing? My recollection from the days when I was setting infinity stops is that you should be at least a mile away, preferably more. When I was doing it I used the odometer on my car to clock a mile from a billboard, then focused on the billboard.

As an aside, I'm sure you know but just in case - you don't really need to buy infinity stops, you can mark the rail with a pencil.

Or get or make a focus scale - you now have a place to line up the lens at infinity.
Infinity stops do help to make sure the lens standard is square when you pull it out.

I've found that the easiest way to check infinity on any rangefinder is to draw two parallel lines on a piece of paper the EXACT same distance apart as the base of the rangefinder (generally the distance between the center of the two windows). On the Technika it is 90mm. Draw opposing arrows one on one side on the top line, and on the other side of the bottom line.

------------>-------------
|
90mm
|
|
--------------<-----------

Place it at any comfortable distance from the camera (say 8 ft) It's not critical - it just has to be viewable in the rangefinder spot.
When the two lines appear as one with the arrows opposite, that rangefinder will be focused on infinity.
(It's geometry).

In focus at infinity = -----------><-----------

On the Technika, with a correct cam installed, ifinity is supposed to be with the focus all the way back.
Once that is correct, mount your lens so it is at infinity with the bed all the way back. (For that you will need to find something far away, or use or make a collimator).
Then use a tape measure to see if the cam matches your lens at varying distances.

GG12

22-Dec-2013, 06:36

Thats a pretty cute trick. Do you put the paper up vertically, or lay it horiz?

richard700

22-Dec-2013, 08:30

Thats a pretty cute trick. Do you put the paper up vertically, or lay it horiz?

You put it so the the spacing between the lines are in the same direction that the rangefinder image moves.
In the case of a linhof, since the rangefinder is vertical, you place it with the spacing vertical (the lines horizontal).

Bob Salomon

23-Dec-2013, 07:44

107119
Or get or make a focus scale - you now have a place to line up the lens at infinity.
Infinity stops do help to make sure the lens standard is square when you pull it out.

I've found that the easiest way to check infinity on any rangefinder is to draw two parallel lines on a piece of paper the EXACT same distance apart as the base of the rangefinder (generally the distance between the center of the two windows). On the Technika it is 90mm. Draw opposing arrows one on one side on the top line, and on the other side of the bottom line.

------------>-------------
|
90mm
|
|
--------------<-----------

Place it at any comfortable distance from the camera (say 8 ft) It's not critical - it just has to be viewable in the rangefinder spot.
When the two lines appear as one with the arrows opposite, that rangefinder will be focused on infinity.
(It's geometry).

In focus at infinity = -----------><-----------

On the Technika, with a correct cam installed, ifinity is supposed to be with the focus all the way back.
Once that is correct, mount your lens so it is at infinity with the bed all the way back. (For that you will need to find something far away, or use or make a collimator).
Then use a tape measure to see if the cam matches your lens at varying distances.

Now here is Linhof's chart and instructions to properly install infinity stops and focus scales with a properly cammed lens. This instruction book and window chart are supplied with all lenses from Linhof that are cammed for the Technika when the user's camera is not sent to them for the camming.