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womble
3-Aug-2012, 02:48
Hi.

Sorry for the newbie question here. If you look at a colour positive on a lightbox or whatever and you make sure the film is the right way up etc., should the writing along the film edge be the right way round or mirrored?

The reason I ask is that I have just had my first ever couple of colour positives back from the lab (Fuji Provia). They have come out very dark and red, and the lab suggested that I had the film in back-to-front. Everything I read said that the notches go in the top right hand corner when loading darkslides. Holding the slides that way round has the image correct (showing I did indeed have the notches in the 'right' place when loading) but the writing mirrored; holding the slide with the writing the correct way round has the image mirrored and the notches in the top left hand edge. You'll appreciate I'm a bit confused!

Is there any other reason for the slides to be under-exposed and very red? Although I am inexperienced with LF photography I have been taking photographs with a variety of 35mm and 120 rigs for a number of years and I doubt I would get the exposure that wrong. twice!

Best wishes, Kris.

chuck94022
3-Aug-2012, 04:16
Notch on the right and up as viewed from the lens. If you are hold the sheet in front of you as if you were reading it, you'd be reading the emulsion side if the notch is in the upper right, as you look at it. Make sense? Your description of "to the right" is ambiguous.

chuck94022
3-Aug-2012, 04:19
Another consideration: underexposed and "very red" would happen if you forgot to remove a deep red filter from the lens, assuming you were shooting slide film after shooting the scene in black and white (he says from experience...)

womble
3-Aug-2012, 04:24
Notch on the right and up as viewed from the lens. If you are hold the sheet in front of you as if you were reading it, you'd be reading the emulsion side if the notch is in the upper right, as you look at it. Make sense? Your description of "to the right" is ambiguous.

Sorry about that. If I hold the sheet of film as you describe the image is correct (upside down of course, but not mirrored) but the writing on the edge of the film (the Fuji.... etc) is mirrored.

Thanks, Kris.

womble
3-Aug-2012, 04:26
Another consideration: underexposed and "very red" would happen if you forgot to remove a deep red filter from the lens, assuming you were shooting slide film after shooting the scene in black and white (he says from experience...)

I can see how that would easily happen but in this case it cannot be the answer. I have a plethora of filters for my other smaller format cameras but I do not have a red one that fits my LF lenses (yet). Good idea though.

Thanks for your help and comments.

Kris.

vinny
3-Aug-2012, 06:21
http://www.butzi.net/articles/filmload.htm

womble
3-Aug-2012, 13:01
http://www.butzi.net/articles/filmload.htm

Those were the guidelines I followed when I loaded them. Very useful website. Best wishes, Kris.

Vlad Soare
4-Aug-2012, 03:46
When you load the film - notches on the right and up.
When you look at it on the light box - notches on the left and up (assuming portrait orientation), or on the right and up (assuming landscape orientation). When the film is held in this position the writing on its edge, as well as the image itself, should be the right way around.

Underexposed and reddish could mean a sheet of film loaded backwards into the holder. Some people do this on purpose:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redscale

This would also explain why you're seeing the edge markings backwards while the image looks the right way around. If you load the film correctly, then the image and the edge text will both have the same orientation.

chuck94022
6-Aug-2012, 20:46
If you followed the directions at butzi.net, you had it the right orientation. But sounds very much like you did not. My suggestion: load the film both ways (one sheet notch on left as your brain seems to perceive reality, and the other way notch or right as your brain seems to perceive reality). See which way ends up with a successful result. Keep doing it that way.

I say it that way because we can write until our fingers fall off but you have been provided the correct information from multiple sources. Your next step is to evaluate and debug your own process.

Best of luck!

chuck94022
6-Aug-2012, 21:10
Oh, one more suggestion: grab your film holder, and your already developed slide. Show us (with a phone camera snapshot) exactly how you loaded it. Load it half way, put it on a table, take a photo of the film sticking out of the holder, and post it here so we can see what you are attempting. Then we can help.

Leigh
6-Aug-2012, 21:26
Is there any other reason for the slides to be under-exposed and very red?
It sounds like you loaded the film in the holder backwards, with the emulsion away from the lens, and exposed through the anti-halation dye.

That would cause both of those problems (assuming the dye is red, as it is on some films).

When loading the film holder, hold the film in your right hand with the notches at upper right.
With the holder flap open along the top edge, insert the film fully and close the flap. Then insert the dark side.

- Leigh

polyglot
7-Aug-2012, 00:53
Yes, you loaded it backwards. The problem as I see it is that the description of "notch in the upper-right" is completely ambiguous. It really means "on the right end of the top edge" not "on the top end of the right edge"; both descriptions describe "notch in the top right corner" as far as I'm concerned but they are opposite orientations. You want "notch on the right end of the top (short) edge" while looking at the emulsion side and inserting the film in a holder.

The other confusing thing is that when you look at a processed chrome in its proper orientation (i.e. so the scene is around the right way and the edge-printing is correct), you are actually looking at the BACK (non-emulsion side) of the film. So if you're reading the edge-printing, you're looking at the back of the film and will see the notch in the corner opposite to where they tell you it should be while loading the film.

Since your images are visible though dark, you can prove to yourself that the film was loaded backwards. Look at the film with the edge-printing showing correctly (from the back of the sheet) and you will see that your scene is reversed. If you flip the sheet so that the scene is correct, the writing will be reversed. For a properly exposed sheet, both the image and the writing will show in the correct orientation at the same time.

Vlad Soare
7-Aug-2012, 01:22
The problem as I see it is that the description of "notch in the upper-right" is completely ambiguous. It really means "on the right end of the top edge" not "on the top end of the right edge"; both descriptions describe "notch in the top right corner" as far as I'm concerned but they are opposite orientations.
Technically speaking, yes. But we have to consider that the film can only go lenghwise into the holder. So, it is assumed that you're holding the film in portrait orientation, in which case the description "notch in the upper right corner" makes perfect sense.

rdenney
7-Aug-2012, 04:57
Technically speaking, yes. But we have to consider that the film can only go lenghwise into the holder. So, it is assumed that you're holding the film in portrait orientation, in which case the description "notch in the upper right corner" makes perfect sense.

Yes. The way I learned it, one holds the sheet in one's right hand, with the thumb and the small finger holding the sheet by its (long) edges. The index finger can therefore rest on the notches. I hold the film holder in my left hand, with the hinge pointing in the same direction as my fingers. I can then slide the end of the film nearest me into the holder with my right hand while my thumb, small finger, and index finger are all touching the edges.

Rick "holding things in the correct--no--right--no--correct hand" Denney

polyglot
8-Aug-2012, 06:37
Technically speaking, yes. But we have to consider that the film can only go lenghwise into the holder. So, it is assumed that you're holding the film in portrait orientation, in which case the description "notch in the upper right corner" makes perfect sense.

Holding the film in portrait is a HUGE unstated assumption and if violated, it results in the directions being precisely backwards. I actually load my holders from the right because that seems, well, the most obvious way* for a right-handed person to do it. It's not like someone sat me (and I suspect, a majority of new LF shooters) down and said "this is how you load a holder"; I just got a bunch, stacked 'em in the darkbag with the film box at the far end and started loading. I figured out the film orientation by taking a sacrificial sheet out of my first box, looking at it in the light to see which side the emulsion was on and then practised loading it a few times where I could see it.


* pull the slide out halfway with left hand, then left index finger sitting next to the film rail, hinge on the right. Hold 4x5 sheet in portrait orientation between thumb (lower left), index (upper left) and pinky (right) of right hand, notch at bottom of right edge. Bump left-index finger with film edge, slide it under the rails, get it in about 3/4 of the way and then lift the tail to make sure it's properly engaged with the rails. Then slide it all the way in and close the hinge and darkslide. If there's an easier way than this, do tell!

Vlad Soare
9-Aug-2012, 00:51
Holding the film in portrait is a HUGE unstated assumption and if violated, it results in the directions being precisely backwards.
Indeed. You're right about that. The portrait orientation seemed so natural to me, that it never occurred to me that I could do it any other way. But I guess you're right, it's an unstated assumption.
I always hold the sheet of film with both hands while loading it, and using both hands somehow cries for portrait orientation. I suppose one could hold the sheet in one's right hand and slide it horizontally from right to left, though I find it much easier to use both hands and to slide the sheet downwards, especially when loading thin, flimsy sheets, like Rollei IR 400, or when loading 8x10" sheets.

cosmicexplosion
9-Aug-2012, 01:17
i had this same problem.... i had every book suggested from this forum, and they all assumed you knew how to load the film!

i spent dozens of sheets of film thinking that i had it round the right way, and i can tell you its very frustrating, i am a bit dyslexic and the one instruction i found was baffling to say the least...soooo

if you are holding the darkslide in your left hand and putting the sheet film in with your right, the notch is on the bottom right.

when it came out red it was upside down... i did the same thing, had a red image.

you can see the emulsion side as it has a matt finish where the other side has a shiny finish. it also scratches when wet.

after a lot of frustration

i looked up the great oracle you tube and found:http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcjgKjEQDT4&feature=endscreen