First 8x10 - Field Camera or Monorail?

[Cletus]

I hope I don't get beat up on this question as badly as I did over the "equivalent focal length" debacle, but I'll take my chances:

I've been preparing to make the jump from 4x5 to 8x10 and having some difficulty deciding on a camera. I pretty much had it narrowed down to either the Chamonix or the Shen Hao FCL810A. Now, I'm wondering whether I shoud have been considering a much less expensive (and much heavier) monorail all along, at least to start out with? Even with 4x5 I never go far from my truck, maybe 1/4 mile tops. I'm starting to think spending the extra TWO OR THREE THOUSAND for a field camera to save 10 pounds over a $500-800 monorail might not be the wisest move until I am sure about the format.

Anyone have any advice, or an experienced suggestion for a good "starter" 8x10 in this class? I'm thinking Toyo, Sinar, Horseman, Cambo, etc. I'm not really interested in the antiques. I know there are some positive experiences out there with Grovers and various Kodaks, but not for me when a more modern camera can be had for similar dollars.

My primary tripod is a Series 3 Gitzo, so I guess anything under 20lbs should be okay there, but still, the lighter the better. I also have a HUGE Majestic 4800, but I think that will be overkill for all but the heaviest of heavies? Is there even such thing as a 15lb monorail? (I was eyeing a Sinar P2 recently, at ~18lbs) - Or on the other hand, maybe I should just jump right in and drop the coin on the Chamonix and never look back?

Thanks for your help and input on this somewhat difficult decision...

[welly]

My Cambo 8x10 is a monster. I wouldn't like to guess how heavy it is but I wouldn't choose to take it hiking if it was up to me. I'm making an uneducated guess that most 8x10 monorails are going to be heavier than their field camera brethren. But I'd wager most people would recommend the camera that best suits your needs and if your needs is a light camera then get your wallet out.

[Pfiltz]

Sorry didn't catch that your going from 4x5 to 8x10. My bad.

[chassis]

My recent revelation about camera weight is that large format cameras are heavy! I have my 4x5 Toyo field camera with me now, and I thought to myself how heavy it and the tripod are, as I was loading them into the car.

I am planning an October overnight backpacking trip of about 15 miles, and thought about bringing the 4x5. There is no way I will do this, after being reminded of the weight.

[Frank Petronio]

I had an 8x10 Arca-Swiss in the older design that was light, compact, under $1000, and a fully capable monorail.

I had an 8x10 Sinar Norma that was more light/compact than many monorails, only $600, and more robust/capable than the Arca.

If you are patient you can do better than an Ebony or Chamonix IMHO. If you are impatient, get the heavier 8x10 Cambo for $400 and plop it on the Majestic and see whether you can even afford to shoot 8x10 film and find the whole process worthwhile? It may not be your ultimate 8x10 camera but at least you'll know whether you want to pursue it further. Frankly although I love many aspects of 8x10, my lack of owning one illustrates my decision ;-p

Remember that the weight of the holders and paraphernalia really adds up so you need to find your working style... if you try to walk for miles with a dozen 8x10 holders you'll understand. But going backpacking with two holders, as some have done, seems even more stupid.

If you do portraits, having a heavy camera and tripod is advantageous, not a hinderance. You can bump it, slam the holders in, not pay as much attention to it and concentrate on your subject without being overly fussy. Same if you use a lot of movements - go for the monorail and use simple, direct movements. Folders are cool designs but accessing movements is a bit like working a puzzle, and isn't using movements an important part of what this is about? Plus a lot of the people I see using them seem really anal and uptight about it all.... takes them forever to get the shot set up, they dither and dawdle, I often think they like bragging rights over owning a Deardorff more than using it.

[E. von Hoegh]

One thing to keep in mind, is that if you buy a camera - any camera - at a fair price, you will be able to resell it at no loss if you decide that the camera (or format) is not for you.
My first 8x10 is also the 8x10 I still have, 20+ years later. A Deardorff V8, made in 1950. Weighs about 13 1/2 pounds, 30" of bellows, movements which will use up the coverage of most any lens you are likely to use, and rigid enough if the rear standard sliders aren't worn out.

[cosmicexplosion]

You cant get beat up... Words will never hurt you
Every single human on this site used to shit their nappys once
So.....
I got a Kodak 2d after buying a sinar 810 and a sinar 45
They dont get used
Myth one, a field camera is not a studio camera
Of course it is. Just depends where you use it.
I read what you said.
And will fall on deaf ears but I have two of the best mono rails gathering dust
Ashe Kodak 2d does every thing I want.
Unless you want extreme movements

But I found a monorail a burdon trying to cart around
So I don't bother
Now I just keep my 2d in the van and am ready in a few minutes
I think I paid 400 shipping to oz cost me 200
And guess what
It works

The other sweet thing is that people have a very warn response to the 2d
The sinar is just a black junk of modern life

If you want z mono rail for extre movements I would suggest making a large box
You can hang it in so you don't need to keep taking it a part and putting it back together


You could always paInt the Kodak black !

You can make lens boards for cents to the dollar as well

Light

Cheap

Resale high

Works

The only bit you will get stick on is finding the mythical beast of cheap and brilliant.

[Cletus]

E., I think that's good advice and the possibility of reselling (if it doesn't work out) is a primary consideration if I end up going for a folder. I thought about a Deardorff for this very reason, as the cameras and accessories seem to be abundant on the used market. The only reason I haven't already pulled the trigger on a V8 Dorff is when I compare it to the newer design Shen Hao (or Chamonix for a grand more) there isn't much difference in the initial price point and I think I'll have a better chance of gettng a good sample buying one new. Last thing I need is a problem camera to turn me off on the format altogether.

If I could find a 'cheap' 8x10 monorail that didn't weigh 36lbs to start with, I'd be inclined to give it a go. I have both types - a field and monorail - in 4x5 and I can definitely appreciate the easier movements and more straightforward operation of the studio camera, just not sure how well that will translate into 8x10, where it'll pretty much all be outdoor use. Even 20lbs is pretty heavy for a camera and even though I don't stray far from the truck, as I mentioned, I'm still not sure it's worth the hassel. The other problem with the monorail is that a folder will easily go into a camera bag or backpack!

The lightweight Arca monorail sounds pretty intriguing, but I don't think I've ever seen one on the used market. Even Arca-Swiss 4x5s seem to be pretty scarce. I guess nobody is selling?

[AnselAdamsX]

Some of the field cameras are not that light either. I'm looking at a Toyo 810M and its 15lbs. The Canham JMC is 9lbs. I have a Sinar P2 8x10 rear with a Sinar F front and it weighs 16 or 17 lbs. I wouldn't worry about the Gitzo tripod handling the weight. I have a 3 series and it handled a 23lb full Sinar P without any problem.

[E. von Hoegh]

E., I think that's good advice and the possibility of reselling (if it doesn't work out) is a primary consideration if I end up going for a folder. I thought about a Deardorff for this very reason, as the cameras and accessories seem to be abundant on the used market. The only reason I haven't already pulled the trigger on a V8 Dorff is when I compare it to the newer design Shen Hao (or Chamonix for a grand more) there isn't much difference in the initial price point and I think I'll have a better chance of gettng a good sample buying one new. Last thing I need is a problem camera to turn me off on the format altogether.

If I could find a 'cheap' 8x10 monorail that didn't weigh 36lbs to start with, I'd be inclined to give it a go. I have both types - a field and monorail - in 4x5 and I can definitely appreciate the easier movements and more straightforward operation of the studio camera, just not sure how well that will translate into 8x10, where it'll pretty much all be outdoor use. Even 20lbs is pretty heavy for a camera and even though I don't stray far from the truck, as I mentioned, I'm still not sure it's worth the hassel. The other problem with the monorail is that a folder will easily go into a camera bag or backpack!

The lightweight Arca monorail sounds pretty intriguing, but I don't think I've ever seen one on the used market. Even Arca-Swiss 4x5s seem to be pretty scarce. I guess nobody is selling?

Buying a new camera is fine if you know are going to keep it. Sell it, and you are guaranteed to take a beating. You might see if you can borrow, or even rent a camera.

[Cletus]

Dear Ansel - :)

Sinar F or P was one of those on my short list. You think about 16lbs? How do you transport the camera? Surely you aren't slinging the tripod over your shoulder with camera attached - unless you have the mightiest head I've ever heard of...

I am in the E. Weston camp with the motto "anything worth photographing can be seen from the road". For the most part anyway. I kinda figured if I was using the heavy non-folder I could just shlep everything over to the "photosite" (ha ha), set up, make exposure, shlep back to the truck and repeat for next image. That's pretty much what I do now with the 4x5, but that camera isblight enough I feel comfortable leaving it on the tripod and therefore slightly increasing my range. Also allows me to make a photo with only one trip to/from my vehicle.

Do you find you can make a picture with a single trip using the 810 monorail? How do you pack the camera? Surely it don't fit into any camera bag or backpack?

[Frank Petronio]

It's a chicken or egg question, you have to use something for a while to know what you want to do, then make adjustments. You may find that you want to shoot a lot of cheap X-ray film or maybe you want to do color neg that costs a fortune? Same with how you carry and move about. Are you going to have a rack of lenses or blow a wad on some fancy old Brass thing? Or shoot with an old beater lens from the 1920s?

The folder will always be more compact in storage but if you use a rack type case to carry the monorail assembled and inverted, then it is ready to go in seconds with hardly any set-up at all if you have a good tripod mounting scheme. I've had C1s and 2Ds too and while some people love them, they never inspired confidence in me. Of course putting an 8x10 on a #3 Gitzo doesn't inspire much confidence either but there are people here who routinely use even lighter tripods with larger cameras.... Whatever!

[Frank Petronio]

I got a Kodak 2d after buying a sinar 810 and a sinar 45
They dont get used


From what we've seen of your output, that's obvious.

[rdenney]

One thing to keep in mind, is that if you buy a camera - any camera - at a fair price, you will be able to resell it at no loss if you decide that the camera (or format) is not for you.
My first 8x10 is also the 8x10 I still have, 20+ years later. A Deardorff V8, made in 1950. Weighs about 13 1/2 pounds, 30" of bellows, movements which will use up the coverage of most any lens you are likely to use, and rigid enough if the rear standard sliders aren't worn out.

Past performance is no guarantee of future results, however. If 8x10 film of the type the OP is willing to use (meaning: not many will be prepared to coat their own film) becomes unavailable or prohibitively expensive, that V8 will be valuable only as a sculpture. Prices may drop significantly, as they did in the past when most pros stopped using this equipment for commercial work.

But the less one pays for a camera, the less the downside risk. A Calumet for half a kilobuck could become unsellable and still not cause too much pain. An Ebony for eight times that can take a deeper bite.

We should, however, recognize the separate but still valid hobby of collecting. Even if some of the cameras I own become completely unusable, I will still keep some of them just because it would pain me to see such a precision piece of equipment go to the landfill. I own a collection of old clocks for the same reason; certainly not because I need them to tell time. We just should not make the mistake of confusing the collecting hobby with the making photographs hobby.

To the OP: I am not an 8x10 user, but general advice that usually works is this: If you intend to do the same sorts of things that pros did when they used such equipment, then get the stuff they used. Equipment for them was designed for flexibility, speed of use, and durability, reflecting years of working pros making their requirements known to manufacturers who then endeavored to fulfill those requirements.

Rick "with Frank on this as usual" Denney

[Drew Wiley]

Monorails and folders handle a lot differently. I use both. Folders are more compact but
slower to set up. I personally use a Phillips 8x10, but a Chamonix or perhaps Wilderness
seems like a reasonable substitute. Lotus or Ebony are nice but pricey. Maybe you can
get lucky and find a true Sinar 8X10 F2 with the steel front standard, but beware of patched together units using 4x5 front ends. Filmholders etc add significantly more wt than
in 4X5. I frequently carry my 8X10 with big Ries tripod on 5 to 10 mile dayhikes, but am
about to attempt a two-week long backpack which mandates the lighter wt of a 4x5 folder. When I was a youth in 40's or even mid-50's that meant a Sinar monorail; but nowadays it means an Ebony folder. Just as much a matter of compactness as weight.
If was was carrrying a big Sinar F or P 8x10 I'd customize an external pack frame, maybe
like the ones elk hunters use to carry back their trophies.

[Leigh]

Hi Cletus,

I have two 8x10 cameras, a Tachihara field camera and a real* Sinar F2 monorail.
They really serve different purposes. I seldom find myself unsure of which to use in a given situation.

If you're doing close-ups of any significance, the F2 monorail will definitely win on bellows extension.
I have an additional bellows and an auxiliary standard, which will get me out to at least 60" of bellows draw.
For 1:1 (full size) reproduction, your bellows draw must be at least twice the lens focal length.

The monorail would also win if you need extreme movements, either in the studio or in the field.

For more modest functional requirements I find the field camera more convenient. The Tachihara is an outstanding field camera.
The monorail comments above should no be construed as implying that the Tachihara is deficient in any way. It's just different.

HTH

- Leigh

*Note
There are different versions of the Sinar F2 8x10 camera. (This may also apply to the F, but I've never owned one.)
The "real" one has very heavy standards, with the rear risers 20mm in diameter, and the front ones 15mm.

The cameras that started life as 4x5 and were converted to 8x10 have 10mm risers front and rear.
Also, the front risers on the converted 4x5 are too short to provide proper rise. I do not recommend this version.

[E. von Hoegh]

Past performance is no guarantee of future results, however. If 8x10 film of the type the OP is willing to use (meaning: not many will be prepared to coat their own film) becomes unavailable or prohibitively expensive, that V8 will be valuable only as a sculpture. Prices may drop significantly, as they did in the past when most pros stopped using this equipment for commercial work.

But the less one pays for a camera, the less the downside risk. A Calumet for half a kilobuck could become unsellable and still not cause too much pain. An Ebony for eight times that can take a deeper bite.

We should, however, recognize the separate but still valid hobby of collecting. Even if some of the cameras I own become completely unusable, I will still keep some of them just because it would pain me to see such a precision piece of equipment go to the landfill. I own a collection of old clocks for the same reason; certainly not because I need them to tell time. We just should not make the mistake of confusing the collecting hobby with the making photographs hobby.

To the OP: I am not an 8x10 user, but general advice that usually works is this: If you intend to do the same sorts of things that pros did when they used such equipment, then get the stuff they used. Equipment for them was designed for flexibility, speed of use, and durability, reflecting years of working pros making their requirements known to manufacturers who then endeavored to fulfill those requirements.

Rick "with Frank on this as usual" Denney

If 8x10 film becomes unavailable, that V8, far from becoming a sculpture - although it would make a nice one - will become a plate camera, dry and/or wet. I've no intention of selling it, ever. There's also the cachet of Deardorff, it is and will remain one of the more sellable cameras, which cannot be said of a Shen Hao.

[rdenney]

Do you find you can make a picture with a single trip using the 810 monorail? How do you pack the camera? Surely it don't fit into any camera bag or backpack?

Wheels, man. That's the trick if you are staying within sight of your vehicle, but not necessarily right next to it. Lots of folks get one of those jogging strollers, and carry all their stuff in that. I mounted wheels on my Sinar 4x5 case so that I didn't have to lift it (it's about 35 pounds, of which the camera is only about 8, not including the tripod). Luggage carts may also work, but the rougher the surface, the bigger the wheels need to be.

Rick "who plays tuba and is used to being a pack animal" Denney

[Drew Wiley]

There were Sinar 8X10 C's with light front ends, something else like an F1 with thicker alum
rods, then the true F2 with the much more preferable steel thick rods on the standard.
But still much lighter than a P or P2. An 8x10 Norma would in my opinion be even better,
but finding one that doesn't take a lot of work to refurbish takes some luck and patience.

[rdenney]

If 8x10 film becomes unavailable, that V8, far from becoming a sculpture - although it would make a nice one - will become a plate camera, dry and/or wet. I've no intention of selling it, ever. There's also the cachet of Deardorff, it is and will remain one of the more sellable cameras, which cannot be said of a Shen Hao.

Yes, it will be worth more as a sculpture (or as an item in a collection)--no doubt about that.

But your statement that you have no intention of selling undermines your previous argument that it will hold its monetary value. If one has no intention of selling it, then its value on the market is of no consequence.

Wet plate? Not on my list of possibilities and it does not fit with my style of photography. But maybe it fits with the OP's. And it sorta sounds to me like the photography serving the camera rather than the camera serving the photography, if the plan is to switch to wet plate as a strategy to avoid the camera no longer being usable.

Rick "who owns a few cameras for their sculptural qualities" Denney

[Cletus]

These are the practical, real world advice and comments I was hoping for. Thank you! I know certain cameras are better suited to certain things, but info like the variations between the Sinar Fs and other suitable, lighter monos is exactly what I was looking for. And with Rick's rather obvious suggestion of wheels (I didn't actually think a that...dur!), that pretty much takes care of the questions I had about the best way to manage the big camera on shoots - i.e. short treks from the car.

I'm pretty sure that settles the question of what camera to get me started in 8x10. If it all works out well with the BIG MONORAIL and I end up satisfied with 8x10 contact prints only (from an earlier post of mine) - I'll just keep it and get a folder later for the added mobility of the lighter camera. That worked will with 4x5 and I still use both cameras when the situation calls for it.

And BTW - to address the question of medium and materials - I don't now and never expect to do wet plate or anything else like that. I am a straight up B&W film guy only and other than the possibility of some alternative printing processes, intend to stay that way. I used to shoot color 35mm and now I have a little digicam for that on those rare occasions when color is necessary. I figure I can get the rest of my lifetime's worth mastering monochrome photography and have no intention of moving off that path anytime soon. Hopefully that will keep me squarely in the market for materials for the foreseeable future.

Thanks again all, for your input and your experience in helping me make this decision. That's exactly why I come here!

[E. von Hoegh]

But your statement that you have no intention of selling undermines your previous argument that it will hold its monetary value. If one has no intention of selling it, then its value on the market is of no consequence.

The value of the camera is unaffected by my intentions, and while my camera is not for sale, others are.

[AnselAdamsX]

I have packed it fully assembled upside down into a regular top loading backpack with the glass facing my back (75 liter /4500 cubic inches). The 12" base rail keeps most things away from the camera. I don't bother padding it but you could wrap a dark cloth around it. I only have 4 holders and a couple of lenses so I think my total pack weight was under forty pounds. I don't think I've carried it more than 0.5 miles. I have also carried it attached to a tripod. I pick it up by the base rail to not put any strain on the ball head. I have a folding hand cart and plastic totes I have used as well.
Dear Ansel - :)

Sinar F or P was one of those on my short list. You think about 16lbs? How do you transport the camera? Surely you aren't slinging the tripod over your shoulder with camera attached - unless you have the mightiest head I've ever heard of...

I am in the E. Weston camp with the motto "anything worth photographing can be seen from the road". For the most part anyway. I kinda figured if I was using the heavy non-folder I could just shlep everything over to the "photosite" (ha ha), set up, make exposure, shlep back to the truck and repeat for next image. That's pretty much what I do now with the 4x5, but that camera isblight enough I feel comfortable leaving it on the tripod and therefore slightly increasing my range. Also allows me to make a photo with only one trip to/from my vehicle.

Do you find you can make a picture with a single trip using the 810 monorail? How do you pack the camera? Surely it don't fit into any camera bag or backpack?

[Scott Walker]

My field camera is a Sinar P2 8x10. I hike and snowshoe with it usualy over my shoulder on the tripod. If I am heading to a destination more than a few miles away it all goes into a backpack (not the one in the picture) and I almost always have my lovely assistant with me to carry film holders in her pack.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg90/Beecool/HeadingupIdahoPeak.jpg

[John Kasaian]

I know of some parking lots I wouldn't want to carry a Calumet "metal monster" across.
Just sayin'

[Lynn Jones]

Make your choice based on your use. If you work primarily out of the studio I strongly suggest the use of a flat bed view camera commonly (but incorrectly) called a field camera. Be sure to get necessary track extenders for over 24" (the Calumet C1 gives you 35") the Deardorff around 24. It is also very desirable to have a 4x5 reducing back. I suggest that if you don't have a huge budget, consider used VC's as obove. C1 and Deardorff both use identical lens boards.

If you only shoot in studio then you'll love a monorail systems camera but they are big, ungainly, and difficult.

Lynn (co-creator of the Calumet C1 and VP of B&J, makers of lots of VC's)

[MIke Sherck]

I carry an 8x10 Burke & James Grover monorail (that's it, in my avatar photo.) It weighs 12 lbs and I paid somewhere between $0 and $100 for it (bought it in a lot, sold the rest. Can't exactly recall how it all netted out but I recall being happy that I'd gotten an 8x10 nearly free.) In the field I carry two lenses, four film holders + all the rest in a soft-sided cooler bag and the camera and tripod go over a shoulder, like Scott's picture above. I'm 50-mumble and can easily carry it several miles that way. It's an interesting camera and I could undoubtedly take at least a couple of pounds off by removing excess knobs, etc. but I don't find 12 lbs. unreasonably heavy. More to the point, I don't go mountain climbing with it. Not at my age! :)

Mike

[cosmicexplosion]

From what we've seen of your output, that's obvious.

Well that's philasophical. A I don't have a scanner. And b. I don't really have any thing worth showing as I am still stuffing up all my exposures. So when I do get something worth showing I'll show it.
Then again maybe I would progress faster showing every one my stuff ups. Still need a scanner.
Besides that I just had a sabotage of a building project I was running which put me in the red and have been
Living on peanuts most of the year. So film and chemistry comes after food.
Good news is that I am settling things so expect a big cheque.
But thanks for your interest. I'll keep you posted.

[welly]

My field camera is a Sinar P2 8x10. I hike and snowshoe with it usualy over my shoulder on the tripod. If I am heading to a destination more than a few miles away it all goes into a backpack (not the one in the picture) and I almost always have my lovely assistant with me to carry film holders in her pack.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg90/Beecool/HeadingupIdahoPeak.jpg

I'm trying to picture where the rail is in that photo.

[Scott Walker]

I'm trying to picture where the rail is in that photo.

LoL, well it's position has nothing to do with the look on my face. :p

[jeroldharter]

Scott,

You might try carrying your car with the other arm. That is a serious workout.

I have tried both monorail and field. The distinctions can blur a bit. Some monorails are relatively light and some field cameras are heavy. Also, most monorails are very bulky and hard to pack.

If you are by nature a pack horse (or someone who would rather buy an orthopedist than a lightweight camera) who is willing to carry a burden to get a solid setup, then go with the monorail. Also, if you don't venture far afield and could carry your gear in a jogging stroller the monorail is much more attractive. But if you truly intend to walk outside with a big camera and film holders, stick with the field camera. I would add Ritter to your list.

[tgtaylor]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=75992&d=1340474150

Toyo 810G....17.7lbs
Schneider 360mm Symmer-S.......~3 lbs
Gitzo G1500 (Series 5)...10lbs
Session hard case.....30lbs
Two tripod blocks....~2lbs
Total weight:....~70lbs

Camera and tripod rolls arounds easily on the two wheeler shown as long as the terrain is level. When it goes up you start humping and when it goes down its similar to walking your energetic dog when you were 9 or 10 years old.

Why the Toyo? All my other LF cameras are Toyo's and the parts and lensbords are interchangeagle. Why change?

Why the monorail? Well for ytears I looked religiously for a used 810M or MII which rarely showed up and when they dod were well out of my budget range. I bought the above 810G "accidentially" without actually looking for one. It and the lens came at a very good price which I could afford. Incidentially the Toyo field weighs 15lbs which is not that much less than the monorail and although its more compact than the G it still would take a large pack to backpack with which wouldn't dream of doing anyway. With the 2 wheeler I can easily access every location I want to shoot with this format.

Thomas

[John Kasaian]

Everything is a trade off with 8x10s.
Gowlands are very light, but lightness brings up issues when it comes to rigidity.
Calumet C-1 are sturdy, but heavy (and those are aluminium or magnesium cameras!)
Agfa Anscos are delightful (Ansel liked his) as well as the Kodak 2D, but bulky to carry.
I like wood clamshells as a compromise for ease of use and sturdiness like Deardorff, Century Universal and the Tachiharas, but these ain't cheap.
Another clamshell, metal not wood, is the Kodak Masterview.
Add film holders (big and heavy) and a tripod that will support an 8x10 and you have quite a load to take to the field---but it can be done. Lots of us do it.
The important consideration is to really want to shoot 8x10 bad enough to go for it. Having a pack mule also helps:rolleyes: Try playing around with as many different cameras as you can---if you can see yourself shooting with, say, a C-1 or a 'dorff V8, thats a good indication of what camera to start with.
My 2-cents and worth exactly what you paid for;)

[Cletus]

Thomas -

I don't guess there's any chance you just acquired that 810G recently is there? Off of a "well known auction site"? I ask that as I recently lost out on an 810G with 300 Symmar, standards to convert the whole thing to a 4x5 and some other interesting stuff.

I still wasn't completely sure this was the camera for me, but for a time it was looking like a very good deal and I bid on it for awhile anyway. I'm sure there's little chance this was you, just wondering...

Incidentally, the loss of this auction was what prompted this question here in the first place. I'd had my heart set on a Chamonix 8x10 for a while now, but after seriously considering this really nice (and really heavy) 810G setup, I really began to consider whether a monorail would make more sense for a first 8x10.

I see you put the weight of the 810G at ~17lbs. I did a little looking earlier and everything I saw put that model closer to 21lbs. Maybe there are some variations, or extra gimmicks that can be eliminated to save weight?

Anyway, nice camera and one that might also make my short list for an 8x10 monorail.

Phil

[cosmicexplosion]

I guess if you aren't going far from your car
A mono rail is fine. I dont think there is too many questions if you are pulling up and rolling out
You could use any camera in the known universe.
Unless you have no arms or can't pick up a few pounds it all seems a non issue.
So I would get a toyo g
Cheap sturdy full movements parts are all over the map
Don't even give it another thought.
Too much thinking is bad for your health.

[Alan Gales]

Everything is a trade off with 8x10s.
Gowlands are very light, but lightness brings up issues when it comes to rigidity.
Calumet C-1 are sturdy, but heavy (and those are aluminium or magnesium cameras!)
Agfa Anscos are delightful (Ansel liked his) as well as the Kodak 2D, but bulky to carry.
I like wood clamshells as a compromise for ease of use and sturdiness like Deardorff, Century Universal and the Tachiharas, but these ain't cheap.
Another clamshell, metal not wood, is the Kodak Masterview.
Add film holders (big and heavy) and a tripod that will support an 8x10 and you have quite a load to take to the field---but it can be done. Lots of us do it.
The important consideration is to really want to shoot 8x10 bad enough to go for it. Having a pack mule also helps:rolleyes: Try playing around with as many different cameras as you can---if you can see yourself shooting with, say, a C-1 or a 'dorff V8, thats a good indication of what camera to start with.
My 2-cents and worth exactly what you paid for;)


You can add the Wehman. The standard model only weighs 8.7 lbs. and folds up into a metal clam shell. I have seen several go for around $1,500.00 used. In fact that's what I paid for mine which included a few extras.

You can google Wehman Cameras for all the specifics on the camera if the OP is interested. It's just another option!

[Drew Wiley]

I dunno Tom ... I have no problem hauling my 8x10 system clear up Mt Tam from the beach, replete with big Ries wooden tripod, and I'm getting to be a geezer. Got a carbon
fiber tripod in reserve for when I get even older. The right camera, lenses, and kind of pack make all the difference. Some of these newer field folders are both lightwt and fairly
rigid. I've got an original Phillips 8X10, but there are reasonable substitutes. Maybe I'll eat
my words in a couple of days attempting a hundred-miler with a view camera, but gotta
keep at this kind of nonsense while I'm still capable of it...

[tgtaylor]

Thomas -

I don't guess there's any chance you just acquired that 810G recently is there? Off of a "well known auction site"? I ask that as I recently lost out on an 810G with 300 Symmar, standards to convert the whole thing to a 4x5 and some other interesting stuff.

I still wasn't completely sure this was the camera for me, but for a time it was looking like a very good deal and I bid on it for awhile anyway. I'm sure there's little chance this was you, just wondering...

Incidentally, the loss of this auction was what prompted this question here in the first place. I'd had my heart set on a Chamonix 8x10 for a while now, but after seriously considering this really nice (and really heavy) 810G setup, I really began to consider whether a monorail would make more sense for a first 8x10.

I see you put the weight of the 810G at ~17lbs. I did a little looking earlier and everything I saw put that model closer to 21lbs. Maybe there are some variations, or extra gimmicks that can be eliminated to save weight?

Anyway, nice camera and one that might also make my short list for an 8x10 monorail.

Phil

I bought the camera off an ebay auction back in the spring of 2011. I bid at the “last second” and had a 10% off the purchase price up to $1k from ebay which knocked the final cost down considerably. It came with the case and the original owners manual which list its weight as 17.8 lbs. This is a “late” G that has black rails and standards as the newer GII with the only difference being that the knobs are plastic and not the heavier metal knobs as with the newer model and 4x5 ROBOS which I also have. The plastic knobs knock ~ 3lbs off the weight so that is why the G is lighter than the GII. When the newer GII was introduced with the newer knobs Toyo made available a replacement set for owners of the older G. I inquired about the replacements at Toyo repair but they threw cold water on the idea as being expensive and I got the idea that the replacement set was no longer available. The camera arrived from the seller as advertised with a new bellows, flawless GG, and very minor scratches which were only visible under very close inspection. The only “issues” were a missing GG protector which I bought from Toyo for $40 (the black acrylic version) and the side to side tilt bubble on the front standard was dry. I'm debating whether or not to order a new bubble set for the front standard ($41) or replacing it with the one from my 45C. The vertical tilt bubble, which is fine, is the more critical of the two on that standard and I'm not in a hurry.

The lens, which I got off ebay was in absolutely mint condition and I got it at an extremely good price due to the fact that nobody was bidding! The series 5 tripod and G1575M head I picked up from the forum's for sale thread at very reasonable prices – no one picked up on it either after two or so days and it was still available when I saw it and bought it. Although I have a Manfrotto 475B w/329RC head which will work with the 810G I was really interested in a solution that would enable me to mount two tripod blocks securely and the Gitzo combination was the ideal choice. In fact the seller used the same combination which is pictured in my avatar.

Also if you do get a monorail you will definitely need a case sufficient to protect the camera from damage. Take that into consideration when purchasing and plan accordingly.

Finally, I forgot to add in the weight of the head which is ~2.5lbs. So transporting the camera, tripod w/2 blocks, head, and case is ~ 72.5lbs and not the 70 quoted. The film holders, spot meter, etc., is carried in a Lowepro AW backpack. A two wheeler is a must.


I dunno Tom ... I have no problem hauling my 8x10 system clear up Mt Tam from the beach, replete with big Ries wooden tripod, and I'm getting to be a geezer. Got a carbon
fiber tripod in reserve for when I get even older. The right camera, lenses, and kind of pack make all the difference. Some of these newer field folders are both lightwt and fairly
rigid. I've got an original Phillips 8X10, but there are reasonable substitutes. Maybe I'll eat
my words in a couple of days attempting a hundred-miler with a view camera, but gotta
keep at this kind of nonsense while I'm still capable of it...

In a pinch I'm sure that I could carry the 810G with attached lens and tripod and my 5 film holders up Mt. Tam but I'm too old and smart enough now to even think about it. Nope...I'll either drive the 8x10 up (there's a paved road all the way up you know) or carry the Toyo 45CF (or smaller!) up from the beach.

The idea, as you age, is to save the knees and back.

Thomas

[Cletus]

Thomas -

Congrats on your nice EBay win. I didn't figure this was the same camera I was looking at, but you never know. Good news though, last night I closed a deal on a Sinar F2 8x10, complete with 2 lenses (Sironar 210 and 240 - little short?), 6 Fidelity holders, extra rails, dark cloth, and more. This kit even includes a nice Bogen tripod and a big Pelican case to fit everything.

The only hard part will be waiting the two weeks or so to take delivery!

Also want to say thanks to everyone here for your many comments and valuable advice. Leigh turned me on to some important points about Sinar Fs in particular, which was quite helpful in making this decision.

I am looking forward to making some contact prints soon and I have sworn that next week I will finally begin scanning some of my work and get a website up and running. Finally. Should have some photos up within the next month - day job permitting.

Cheers,
Phil aka "Cletus"

[Frank Petronio]

Not knowing the particulars, the 240 will probably just cover 8x10 with minimal movements and the 210 is a fine lens for 5x7 or smaller. You could always sell it to help fund a 300 or 360....

[Cletus]

Frank -

Yep, I was worried about that too, but I looked up the lenses and both are in C3 shutters. The 210 is a Sironar W with a 352 IC@f22 and the 240 is a Sinaron S with 372 IC@f22, so shouldn't have a major coverage problem. Also, the guy I bought the camera with looks like a pretty well established, published artist and he used only those lenses for all his 8x10 work. I already have Fujinon CM-W 250/6.3 that just barely covers 8x10, but I'll probably keep it for 4x5, it's a really nice lens. Either way, I will definitely be looking for a 300-360 and maybe a Fuji 450C too, before long. That should make for a pretty decent lens kit for 8x10.

Any other thoughts or suggestions on lenses?

R, Phil

[Frank Petronio]

That 210 Sironar-W is very valuable lens. (The Sironar-S is no slouch either.) Don't tell me how good a deal you got ;-p

[Cletus]

Incidentally, I usually refer to the LF Home Page "Lens Comparison Charts" for info and data on most current LF lenses. That's where I got the data for these two lenses I just mentioned. I also just found another source, which I'm sure most of you are familiar with, but it looks pretty comprehensive, at least for basic data.

It's the Ebony Lens Tables and here's the link. I just came across this:

http://www.ebonycamera.com/articles/lenses.html

If you haven't seen this already, it might of some use to you - or whoever...

Phil

[Cletus]

Frank -

Ha ha! I thought this might be a winner when I did my little research! And I won't tell you either, to preserve the seller's confidence, but I will say the whole package with camera, lenses, holders and all went for less than I was planning to pay for the wood 8x10 I was considering before I started this thread. Let's just say it was a good deal. :cool:

Phil

[Cletus]

I think I will be a happy camper in a couple weeks!

[rdenney]

(The Sironar-S is no slouch either.)

He said "Sinaron S", which is really a Sironar-N. Excellent lens, but it is not a Sironar-S, and will not have quite the coverage of a Sironar-S. Rodenstock claims 350mm coverage at f/22 for the N, not the 372mm coverage provided by the S.

Yes, it's confusing for Sinar to have relabeled the Sironar-N (aka APO-Sironar-N) to Sinaron-S, but I'm reasonably sure they did that before Rodenstock came out with the new Sironar-S design, so perhaps the confusion was partly was Rodie's fault.

Perhaps Phil actually meant the "Sironar-S" instead of "Sinaron-S".

Rick "who has a 210mm Sinaron-S" Denney

[E. von Hoegh]

Frank -

Yep, I was worried about that too, but I looked up the lenses and both are in C3 shutters. The 210 is a Sironar W with a 352 IC@f22 and the 240 is a Sinaron S with 372 IC@f22, so shouldn't have a major coverage problem. Also, the guy I bought the camera with looks like a pretty well established, published artist and he used only those lenses for all his 8x10 work. I already have Fujinon CM-W 250/6.3 that just barely covers 8x10, but I'll probably keep it for 4x5, it's a really nice lens. Either way, I will definitely be looking for a 300-360 and maybe a Fuji 450C too, before long. That should make for a pretty decent lens kit for 8x10.

Any other thoughts or suggestions on lenses?

R, Phil

240 and 360 is a nice set, you won't really need the 300. When I go hiking, the 240/360 (actually 9 1/2 and 14 inch Dagors) are the set I bring. The 360 will give you miles of movement.

[Cletus]

Rick,

From what I can tell, the 240 5.6 is a "Sinaron S" and the 210 5.6 is a "Sironar W", apparently based on the Rodenstock Geronar, but not sure.

I had to do a little Googling this morning, trying to understand the difference between Sironar and Sinaron. Evidently, the Sinaron badge is similar to a Linhof lens in the way they "rebrand" a select Schneider, or other mfg lens.

As for the Sironar line, it seems to be a similar rebadging for Sinar of Cambo/Calumet's Caltar lens lines.

Does this sound about like what you understand about Rodenstock lenses? The remarks about the different Rodenstock for Sinar lens names came from a comment on APUG or somewhere, which does not necessarily mean it's fact.

[E. von Hoegh]

Rick,

From what I can tell, the 240 5.6 is a "Sinaron S" and the 210 5.6 is a "Sironar W", apparently based on the Rodenstock Geronar, but not sure.

I had to do a little Googling this morning, trying to understand the difference between Sironar and Sinaron. Evidently, the Sinaron badge is similar to a Linhof lens in the way they "rebrand" a select Schneider, or other mfg lens.

As for the Sironar line, it seems to be a similar rebadging for Sinar of Cambo/Calumet's Caltar lens lines.

Does this sound about like what you understand about Rodenstock lenses? The remarks about the different Rodenstock for Sinar lens names came from a comment on APUG or somewhere, which does not necessarily mean it's fact.

Sironar is the name Rodenstock uses for their Plasmats. There are three or so series.

[Cletus]

Oops, I meant to say "endorse" or "sign" the lens the way Linhof does. Seems to me most Linhof lenses also say Schneider in the same we the Sironar also says Rodenstock on the barrel.

This is confusing. I think I'll just consider them both Rodies and leave it at that. I was only looking into this to find the specs anyway and I think I have that now.

[Leigh]

The Sironar lenses (of various flavors like -N, -W, etc.) are made by Rodenstock in Germany.
These are excellent lenses. All of my six lenses from 135mm through 300mm are Apo-Sironar-S.

Sinaron lenses are rebadged Rodenstock Sironars, but the suffixes (-N, -W, etc) don't correspond to the Sironars.

Cambo/Calumat do not make any lenses. They buy and rebadge.

- Leigh

[Cletus]

Oh, I see. Sironar and Plasmat is a little like Biogon for Zeiss lenses? Sironar is a design, rather than a monicker?

[Leigh]

Sironar is a design, rather than a monicker?
Yes. Rodenstok also makes Grandagon and other series of lenses.

- Leigh

[E. von Hoegh]

Oh, I see. Sironar and Plasmat is a little like Biogon for Zeiss lenses? Sironar is a design, rather than a monicker?

No. Plasmat is the design, "Sironar" is the moniker. Schneider calls them "Symmars".

[Cletus]

Leigh - yep, I get it now. A "Symmar-S" is a Schneider optical design for a Plasmat (or Super Angulon for Biogon?) and that's the mfg's name for it. S would be the series, same as Rodenstock's -S or W? Makes more sense to me that way. I can understand a lens marked "Sinaron" and no other name is a rebadged Rodenstock for Sinar, same as Caltar is Rodenstock for Cambo.

Am I on the right track now?

[Cletus]

Bottom line, as long as I am albe to decipher enough of the name(s) to understand what the lens is and what the specs are, that's good enough for me.

[E. von Hoegh]

Leigh - yep, I get it now. A "Symmar-S" is a Schneider optical design for a Plasmat (or Super Angulon for Biogon?) and that's the mfg's name for it. S would be the series, same as Rodenstock's -S or W? Makes more sense to me that way. I can understand a lens marked "Sinaron" and no other name is a rebadged Rodenstock for Sinar, same as Caltar is Rodenstock for Cambo.

Am I on the right track now?

Yes. However, a "Doppel Anastigmat Symmar" is Dagor design, and a Plasmat is an air-spaced Dagor. Isn't LF fun?? (winking smiley)




Warning ; You are now being "messed with".

[Cletus]

E., I will say that for now, any lens with "Doppel Antistigmat" in the name will be something for future (read that: FAR future) consideration! :eek:

Let's see if I can figure out how to take a picture with this beast first, then I'll start thinking about exotic lenses and optical formulas!

[Cletus]

....and yes I figured I was being "messed with"! :p

[E. von Hoegh]

E., I will say that for now, any lens with "Doppel Antistigmat" in the name will be something for future (read that: FAR future) consideration! :eek:

Let's see if I can figure out how to take a picture with this beast first, then I'll start thinking about exotic lenses and optical formulas!

Dagors aren't exotic, far from it. Give it a few weeks.

[Leigh]

No. Plasmat is the design, "Sironar" is the moniker.
Sorry to disagree, E.,

Lenses in the modern Sironar family are based on the Plasmat design, but they're not Plasmats.
In particular...
1) The front cell is larger diameter than the rear (they're the same in the standard Plasmat) resulting in a wider angle of view.
2) The use of ED glass to reduce aberrations.

This is sort of a pointless argument, based entirely on semantics. :D

- Leigh

[Leigh]

...as long as I am albe to decipher enough of the name(s) to understand what the lens is and what the specs are...
All you care about are the specs. You'll find few focal lengths at which you have a choice of lens designs.

While it's good to know the basic characteristics of different designs, the manufacturers have already
done a lot of research to choose the optimal design for a given application.

- Leigh

[Frank Petronio]

Nomenclature aside, a 210 Rodenstock Sironar-W is a rare and valuable lens not based at all on the Geronar design. Some people will pay their eye teeth for one.

The Rodenstock Geronars were their "cheap" "generic" line. Fine lenses but 10x difference in price.

It may be a good candidate to sell or trade for the 360, but be aware of its value. If you do trade, you'd get a top notch 360 in exchange and maybe some cash too. Of course finding a buyer is always difficult with exotic gear but be patient and don't give it away.

[Leigh]

I know that, even though the front cell is a larger diameter (more even illumination) it is still considered a Plasmat type. The modern Nikkors, Symmars (after the triple-convertible), and Fujis are all Plasmat types as well.
I agree. They're all Plasmat types, which is not to say they're Plasmats. Fine point of semantics. :D

I think most LF lenses of moderate FL are based on the Plasmat design.
Other designs include the Rodenstock Grandagon, Apo-Ronar, and Imagon.

Exceptions by category would be short FL and long FL lenses.
In both cases other designs are used because the FFL becomes unreasonable.

On edit:
There's actually a good reason for pursuing this fine point of distinction...
Lens design has evolved rapidly with the introduction of computer optimization.

Making the simple statement that a given lens is a "Plasmat" implies that it will perform the same as any other "Plasmat",
and that is definitely not the case. For example, an Apo-Sironar-S design is distinctly different from a Sironar-N, even
though both are based on the original Plasmat design.

- Leigh

[John Kasaian]

I guess now you guys get to go film holder shopping!:)

[Jim Noel]

WHy not begin with a flatbed like a Kodak 2D. Much less expensive, large lens board, not appreciably heavier than a field and reasonably easy to carry for short distances. Any lens you choose wil fit on the large lensboard.

[Cletus]

Jim -

I thought about one of the older field cameras like a 2D or B&J to start out with, just because of the reasonable price which they can sometimes be got. But now, after this rather long discussion on the finer points of large cameras, I was able to find a really nice deal on a Sinar F2 8x10. In the end, since I almost always stay near the car when photographing, the extra weight won't be too much of a liability and I think I will appreciate the additional capability of the rail camera.

Beside all that, this kit is complete with a couple lenses, including the apparently much lauded APO Sironar W 210. Which I am fairly excited about. In the past I have drooled over the massive Super Symmar 210, which as an even larger IC, but I think this Rodenstock 210 will keep me happy for awhile. So the 8x10 F2, 6 nice film holders, extra rails, dark cloth, a nice tripod and even a Pelican case to keep it all in was a deal I couldn't pass up.

Anyhow, I had tried to say thanks to everyone in an earlier post for all the help and advice, which made this decision a much easier one to make. Before this, I hadn't really even considered the possibility of anything other than a wooden field camera for the step up in format. We'll see how this one works out soon....

R, Phil

[rdenney]

Oh, I see. Sironar and Plasmat is a little like Biogon for Zeiss lenses? Sironar is a design, rather than a monicker?

No, Sironar is a model name for their plasmat (note small "p") design. The plasmat is an air-spaced derivative of the dagor design, and provides a wide field compared to the standard normal lens of yesteryear, which was a tessar design. Sironar is a model name used by Rodenstock.

Schneider's plasmat is the Symmar, at least up through the Symmar-S.

There was never a Sinar-labeled lens that was a Rodenstock Geronar, which is a triplet design intended for a low price point (but they still work very well at small apertures). Later plasmat designs have gotten more sophisticated with the use of different glasses and design methods. The result of that evolution has been lenses like the Sironar-S, which is NOT to be confused with the Sinar Sinaron-S. The Rodenstock Sironar-S is a newer, wider design than the Sironar-N/Sinaron-S. The Sironar-W was a previous wider design as an alternative to the N, and available at the same time as the N. They are nice and not terribly common--keep yours. But they are still Sironars--plasmat designs derived from the dagor.

There are wider designs. The Rodenstock Grandagon is similar to the Schneider Super Angulon, and is like two retrofocus wide-angle lenses in opposition. Big and heavy for their speed and focal length, but a very flat, wide field providing lots of coverage for their focal length. The design derives somewhat from the Zeiss Biogon.

The Sironar-N and the APO-Sironar-N (basically the same lens) was Rodenstock's name for a lens that they also sold through Sinar. With a Sinar badge, it is a Sinaron-S. (A Sinaron-W is a Rodenstock Grandagon).

Sinar just bought them with their label applied to them. Rodenstock's quality control was sufficient for Sinar not to feel the need to perform their own testing. In more ancient times, Linhof would specially test the lenses they applied their badge to. But Linhof just applied "Linhof" to the lens, they did not rename in the lens in the process.

Calumet's Caltars have been made by everyone at one time or another. That takes a whole chapter to explain.

Yes, it's confusing. But you'll pick it up.

Rick "summarizing" Denney

[Frank Petronio]

A Sinar or Linof selected lens is worth a little more because of the reputation of the two companies and the implied promise of superior quality control over the OEM brand.

A Calumet Caltar is worth a little less because of the company offered slightly discounted lenses compared to the OEM brand.

People will argue that there is no difference between any of them and experience shows that they are all fine lenses, but the superstitious side of me will still kick in an extra $20 for the better brand when it comes down to two equal lenses. I've never heard of a bad Linhof lens unless it was abused.

I might actually shy away from the Sinar lenses unless I know their history. Some originated in Sinar DB shutter mounts and may have been clumsily remounted into Copals at a later date, sans important shims or ignoring correct spacing requirements. This would be very uncommon but I know it has happened, and you will often see lens cells paired with shutters from different eras, or "wrong" aperture scales on the shutter - those are best to avoid unless you want to pay for them to be checked out by a good technician. Or are "OK-ed" one of the supreme experts here of course ;-p

[tgtaylor]

Thomas -

I don't guess there's any chance you just acquired that 810G recently is there? Off of a "well known auction site"? I ask that as I recently lost out on an 810G with 300 Symmar, standards to convert the whole thing to a 4x5 and some other interesting stuff.

I still wasn't completely sure this was the camera for me, but for a time it was looking like a very good deal and I bid on it for awhile anyway. I'm sure there's little chance this was you, just wondering...

Incidentally, the loss of this auction was what prompted this question here in the first place. I'd had my heart set on a Chamonix 8x10 for a while now, but after seriously considering this really nice (and really heavy) 810G setup, I really began to consider whether a monorail would make more sense for a first 8x10.

I see you put the weight of the 810G at ~17lbs. I did a little looking earlier and everything I saw put that model closer to 21lbs. Maybe there are some variations, or extra gimmicks that can be eliminated to save weight?

Anyway, nice camera and one that might also make my short list for an 8x10 monorail.

Phil

Phil,

Was this the camera that you were biddubg on: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230826264026

That is a nice set-up and I "watched" it to see what the ending selling price would be. The only thing that it lacked, IMO, was a case to hold everything in and that would add to the final price. The ending price for my kit was ~$1400 after I had purchased the GG protector, tripod and head, 5 new Fidelity Elite holders, Lens, 8x10 BTZS focusing cloth, GG protector latch (one was missing with the rivet broken off) and paying $50 to have a rivet made and installed. The neat thing aout sticking with the Toyo is that I can convert the Robos to 8x10 with parts from the 8x10G and use the Robos parts on the 8x10G. One adaptor works on both cameras so I don't have to worry about if the lens boards will work when switching cameras. Makes life simpler.

Congrats on your purchase of the F2. That's a fine camera and I'm sure you will enjoy it immensely. BTW, I have found the 360mm lens the perfect FL for the 8x10 - much better that the 300mm.

Thomas

[Cletus]

Thomas -

Ayup! That was the one. It stuck at like, $500 for almost the entire auction, then, poof! When sky high and past what I was ready to pay for it. Oh, well, I'm really glad I ended up with the Sinar anyway.

Phil