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View Full Version : ROTARY DEVELOPMENT: Uneven development : Xtol 1:1 / Jobo 3010 ???



l2oBiN
22-Jul-2012, 07:21
I have been facing this problem for quite some time. I can't seem to figure out why this is happening. Any suggestions? It seems random and the pattern is always the same. Below are two scans of two separate negatives developed on two separate runs showing the problem. I have increased the contrast in PS to make the problem more evident.

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww12/l2oBiN_Ho0D/UnevenDev/20120617_R37_scanWEBcntr.jpg
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww12/l2oBiN_Ho0D/UnevenDev/20120617_R38_scanWEBcntr.jpg

Things I have tried to eliminate this

-Levelled the drum on the rotary base making sure there is no wobble as it spins
-Used fresh stocks of Xtol
-Pured dev on opposite compartments of the jobo 3010 in reference to film
-increased frequency of changes in drum development spin direction

My dev is
(done on cibachrome motor base)

5-10 min prewash (multiple water changes [~2-3])/ flip direction per wash
4 min dev /flip direction every 30s
1 min wash with water /flip direction every 30s
6 min Tetanol super fix plus /flip direction every 3min
1 min wash with water /flip direction every 30s
3x 5 min wash with water /flip direction per water changes
take negs out of drum and immerse in water+tetanol mirasol
dry on clothesline initially "mopping" away the excess buildup of water at bottom edge

Bruce Osgood
22-Jul-2012, 08:37
The first thing I'd do is get rid of the pre-wash.

Oren Grad
22-Jul-2012, 08:40
How much developer solution are you using? How much wash water to chase the developer?

How do you fill and empty the drum?

Have you tried leaving out the prewash?

4 minutes is a *very* short, very unforgiving development time, especially if you need to stop the drum's rotation to fill and empty it.

vinny
22-Jul-2012, 08:44
pre wash is fine but no need for 10 min!
Where'd you get this idea?
2 minutes has always worked for me.
how much developer are you using?
only 4 minutes in developer? that's unusual too and kodak manuals will tell you that as well. dilute your developer and double that time.
no need to flip direction with the expert tanks. I do it with my jobo for the first minute of each step but it's not going to help with development.
don't push the film all the way down in the tubes.

check the film after your stop bath (open the drum, pull a sheet and look at it)

Andrew O'Neill
22-Jul-2012, 09:25
As Bruce said, get rid of the prewash. It's really not necessary.

tgtaylor
22-Jul-2012, 09:44
I'd:

1. Skip the pre-rinse.

2. You didn't mention the film brand but it would appear that you are processing at a high temperature - 75 to 80F. I would lower the processing time to 68F which would give you a longer development time.

3. Consider a 1:1 dilution with Xtol - especially with night shots.

4. Download the Xtol datasheet from the Kodak website.

Thomas

l2oBiN
22-Jul-2012, 11:01
The film used is Acros 100. The developer is Xtol 1:1; 100mL is used per film sheet. The dev time is so short because I am trying to capture the high contrast. Longer dev times blow the highlights in bright street lamps. I have been mentally discouraged in trying a more dilute developer dilution as I thought this might significantly increase grain (which I am trying to minimise). On a more minor note, the increase the volume of the developer per sheet of film (e.g. 1:2 =50mL Xtol +100mL h2o = 150mL) would prevent me from using 10 sheets per run. But perhaps this could be a good idea... 1:2 for 6m? 1:3 for 8m?

Of note, its is quite strange that not all film sheets turn out like this in any given single run (OR perhaps I the uneven dev is not object able in uneven/textured areas??). That is in a run some sheets might have such anomalies while others do not. This made me think that the pouring of the dev into the tank (tank being off the machine base) might have been the cause. However, I have tried loading film in one chamber and then pouring dev in an opposing chamber of the 3010 therefore the dev should not touch the film sheet until the rotation starts. I still ocassionally get this problem. Perhaps the way the film sits in the chamber is important?

Its interesting that so many people recommend eliminating the prewash? I have tried this before and found that the prewash assists in getting a more even development. So this step seems counter intuitive.

What might be a clue is that the film perforation (top right in negs) seems to have inconsistencies in the dev of film area surrounding it. Possibly from the disturbance of the dev currents?

What impact would a longer prewash have on the dev inconsistency? My impression is that a longer prewash ensures all the film is evenly soaked?

I like the idea flowering temperature but I do not have the option to do this.I try and keep my water/dev at 20*C.

The next thing I though of trying is pouring in the dev while the drum is spinning?? It might be a bit challenging..

timparkin
22-Jul-2012, 11:49
The film used is Acros 100. The developer is Xtol 1:1; 100mL is used per film sheet. The dev time is so short because I am trying to capture the high contrast. Longer dev times blow the highlights in bright street lamps. I have been mentally discouraged in trying a more dilute developer dilution as I thought this might significantly increase grain (which I am trying to minimise). On a more minor note, the increase the volume of the developer per sheet of film (e.g. 1:2 =50mL Xtol +100mL h2o = 150mL) would prevent me from using 10 sheets per run. But perhaps this could be a good idea... 1:2 for 6m? 1:3 for 8m?

Of note, its is quite strange that not all film sheets turn out like this in any given single run (OR perhaps I the uneven dev is not object able in uneven/textured areas??). That is in a run some sheets might have such anomalies while others do not. This made me think that the pouring of the dev into the tank (tank being off the machine base) might have been the cause. However, I have tried loading film in one chamber and then pouring dev in an opposing chamber of the 3010 therefore the dev should not touch the film sheet until the rotation starts. I still ocassionally get this problem. Perhaps the way the film sits in the chamber is important?

Its interesting that so many people recommend eliminating the prewash? I have tried this before and found that the prewash assists in getting a more even development. So this step seems counter intuitive.

What might be a clue is that the film perforation (top right in negs) seems to have inconsistencies in the dev of film area surrounding it. Possibly from the disturbance of the dev currents?

What impact would a longer prewash have on the dev inconsistency? My impression is that a longer prewash ensures all the film is evenly soaked?

I like the idea flowering temperature but I do not have the option to do this.I try and keep my water/dev at 20*C.

The next thing I though of trying is pouring in the dev while the drum is spinning?? It might be a bit challenging..

Having fought with patterns like this in C41 I would suggest trying to use a longer time somehow - the pouring time will probably be long in comparison with the overall time of dev. In fact turning it around won't be helping much either.

I also had a slightly 'warped' 3010 in which the film was touching the back of the drum slightly which didn't help much. Check you have an even space behind the film once loaded. I would mark the film positions so you can check which ones may be causing a consistent problem.

Pre-wash shouldn't cause any problems and in my case it solved some problems. Longer prewash won't do anything once the emulsion is soaked.

Tim

Brian C. Miller
22-Jul-2012, 12:52
My dev is
(done on cibachrome motor base)

OK, there's your problem. The streaks are from the developer not initially being distributed correctly as it flows on the film. When a tank is attached to a Jobo unit, the developer is poured in as the drum rotates. In your case, you are pouring the developer in without the drum in motion.

For doing something like this, leave one tube empty when you are loading your film. Put the developer into the empty tube, before you put on the lid. Then, with the motor base running, flip the drum onto the base.

While a prewash isn't necessary, it does retard the first contact of the developer with the film. You'd have to leave a slot empty, do the prewash, and then pop the lid and put the developer in the empty tube.

Peter De Smidt
22-Jul-2012, 13:08
OK, there's your problem. The streaks are from the developer not initially being distributed correctly as it flows on the film. When a tank is attached to a Jobo unit, the developer is poured in as the drum rotates. In your case, you are pouring the developer in without the drum in motion.

Brian is right. I use expert drums on a CPP-2 with Acros and Xtol with no pre-rinse on a regular basis. It works just fine. I've heard of people rigging up systems to enable adding solution while the drum is spinning on a base. A search on APUG should prove useful.

Henry Ambrose
22-Jul-2012, 13:18
You need 100 ml stock Xtol per 80 square inches, not 100 ml per 4x5 sheet (20 square inches). Definitely increase dilution to give at least 8 minutes in the developer. I'd even go to 1:3 which should get you over 10 minutes. Longer development times help consistency of the process.

For taming the high contrast you might also want to try stand development at 1:3 or even 1:5 for about 30 minutes. Agitate for the first minute then let it sit for about 10 minutes then agitate again, let sit for the balance then proceed as usual.

rfesk
22-Jul-2012, 13:42
Definitely increase your development times - that alone may even things out.

You can add the developer using a tube with a funnel attached. A larger diameter tube will shorten the time required to fill the tank.

I have never had a problem using the prewash (5 minutes.)

I am assuming you are loading the film with the emulsion side in.

jcoldslabs
22-Jul-2012, 14:34
I use Cibachrome drums on a reversing Unicolor motor base for film developing and have never had this issue. I regularly develop 8x10 film (without pre-wash) for four minutes and my development is as even as can be. I use 240ml of developer (HC-110 dil. E) in the drum for each 8x10 sheet. I don't use JOBO drums so I'm not sure how the developer is released onto the film, but with the Cibachrome drums once the drum is tilted toward horizontal the developer cascades from the holding cup into the drum. I make sure that the moment the drum is fully horizontal it is turning on the base. I also lift one corner of the motor base now and again to add a rocking motion to the rotating agitation. With the Unicolor base the rotation reverses direction every five seconds or so.

I don't use Acros myself, but I have had issues with T-Max films where the anti-halation dye does not fully clear with such a short development time so extra washing and fixing is needed. Of course, in the Cibachrome drums the film is plastered to the inside wall and there is little fluid exchange with the back of the film.

Jonathan


EDIT: Also, for what it's worth, Steve Anchell (in the Film Developing Cookbook) recommends a minimum of 125 ml of developer per 4x5 sheet when used with XTOL 1:1.

Ed Richards
22-Jul-2012, 15:37
I use a 3010 and Xtol, on a Bessler base. I pour the fluids in right out of the graduate, with the tank on the bench, slightly tilted to let the air out. I pour it in as fast as I can and put it on the rotating base. Development is 6.5-10 minutes, depending on contrast management. (6.5 is usually a hail Mary when the scene contrast is just too high)

I had uneven development until I went to a prewash - 5 minutes. Then, no problems. I would not do water changes during prewash. You want to cut down how many pours you do before development is done. I agree with the consensus that your development time is way too short. If you are in the tropic cannot get the temp below 80 degrees, get some ice. What film are you using?

rfesk
22-Jul-2012, 16:32
" You can add the developer using a tube with a funnel attached. A larger diameter tube will shorten the time required to fill the tank. "

To clarify the above, you pour in the developer while the tank is rotating on the base using the tube and funnel.

sully75
22-Jul-2012, 17:23
I used to do print (chromega and unicolor) drums on a motor base (bessler and chromega bases).

When I got the 3010 it seemed like the motor base was way too fast to allow the chambers to empty out of chemicals. I switched to gentle hand rotations. Results so far have been really good.

With the print drums, the developer has almost nothing in the way to getting to the film, so a good rotation speed is fine. But with the jobo the developer has to drop out of each tube.

Hand rolling isn't too bad. You could try some sort of reostat (?) on the base to slow things down though.

Also I'm using way too much chemicals but it prevents you from having problems.

jeroldharter
22-Jul-2012, 18:03
Does the Ciba base change directions when it rotates? If so, its roation may not be long enough for the entire circumference of the 3010 to spin around sufficiently for even development.

I use a Beseler base with a 3010 and 3005, TMY2, and Xtol 1:1 with no problems. I use a 5 minute pre-wash.

I would shorten the prewash to 3-5 minutes and adjust development to get longer times, e.g. 7 minutes.

tgtaylor
22-Jul-2012, 21:57
I small tank (hand inversion) process Acros in Xtol 1:1 for 10 minutes at 20C and rotary process it for 9.75 to 10.25 minutes at 20C with excellent results. If you (like me) don't like to experiment with your film, download the data sheets for Xtol and Acros and carefully compare the development times that are given for 100 TMax and Acros and you won't go wrong. Try one run at 9.75 minutes and increase the 2d to 10 minutes and finally the 3d at 10.25 minutes and see which you like. I always process 120 Acros by the inversion method using Fuji's agitation methods for 10 minutes at 1:1 (20C) with superb results.

Thomas

polyglot
23-Jul-2012, 00:40
Those are developer splash marks. As others have said, you need to pour the developer in while the drum is rotating. Pre-wash is good (it will never cause problems like this and it can help prevent issues with water-dribbles from the tank) but you don't need more than 2:00.

You need only 25mL of Xtol stock per sheet, which is 50mL of 1+1 working solution. However, you can't go below about 350mL because that's the drum's minimum-coverage quantity.

Acros in Xtol 1+1 is a favourite combination for me; I give it 9:00 of rotary development at 20C and it works beautifully (http://www.brodie-tyrrell.org/pad/index.php?id=2012/07/16d) for night photos. 4:00 is a crazy-short development time.

Denis Pleic
23-Jul-2012, 00:57
" You can add the developer using a tube with a funnel attached. A larger diameter tube will shorten the time required to fill the tank. "

To clarify the above, you pour in the developer while the tank is rotating on the base using the tube and funnel.

This is sound advice, given your setup (type of drum and rotary base).
I'm not familiar with 3010 drum and how long it takes to fill it with chemicals, but try the above, and things might improve. As Polyglot said above, those look like developer marks.

On another note, your times need adjusting: 10 min prewash is unnecessary: 2-3 min should be enough.
Which film are you using? Across 100? But, that's waaay too short (4 mins) for Xtol 1+1!

I'm using Acros 100 (medium format, i.e. 120), with STOCK (seasoned) Xtol in Jobo rotary processor, and my times are around 7 to 7.5 minutes... That's for STOCK (undiluted) Xtol... so, if you dilute it 1+1, it should be even longer.
There's something fishy about your dev. time: check dev. times on apug.org, or even Digitaltruth Massive Development Chart (although I wouldn't trust that one much...).

Anyway, here's what Fuji says about dev. times in their official documentation for Across 100:


Xtol, EI 100:

18C/64F: 9:30 mins
20C/68F: 8 mins
22C/72F: 6:45 mins
24C/75F: 5:30 mins
26C/79F: 4:45 mins

Shorten that a bit (10-15% for rotary processing, but still....

Are you developing at 26 deg C (79 deg. F)? Only then your dev. time seems even close....

Fuji Acros 100 (120 format) data sheet attached FYI.

Regards,

Denis

Keith Tapscott.
23-Jul-2012, 01:01
I have been facing this problem for quite some time. I can't seem to figure out why this is happening. Any suggestions? It seems random and the pattern is always the same. Below are two scans of two separate negatives developed on two separate runs showing the problem. I have increased the contrast in PS to make the problem more evident.


Things I have tried to eliminate this

-Levelled the drum on the rotary base making sure there is no wobble as it spins
-Used fresh stocks of Xtol

-Pured dev on opposite compartments of the jobo 3010 in reference to film
-increased frequency of changes in drum development spin direction

My dev is
(done on cibachrome motor base)


I don't know much about the Cibachrome motor-bases, but I have found that using a rotation speed that is too slow on my CPA2 will cause uneven processing as does not using enough processing volumes of developer. Omitting the pre-rinse as already suggested may also help.

Greg Davis
23-Jul-2012, 06:05
Its interesting that so many people recommend eliminating the prewash? I have tried this before and found that the prewash assists in getting a more even development. So this step seems counter intuitive.

Part of the reason for that is Kodak doesn't recommend a prewash anymore, particularly with Xtol. In some instructions, it states a prewash requires a 10% longer development time to counter the diluting that occurs from water left in the tank after a prewash.

Eric Biggerstaff
23-Jul-2012, 06:47
I have developed thousands of sheets of film (both 4X5 and 5X7) in a 3010 with all sorts of film (including Acros) and many different developers (including Xtol) and have generally had very reliable results and even development. The times there were issues they were caused by me - not the drum, film or developer. And I use a Beseler base that does not change directions (and I don't change them when I am developing, I am lazy). Also, I always use 5 minute pre soak in the drum with it rotating. Lastly, I use 750ml of developer per run.

The drum needs to be rotating whenever chemicals are entered into the system. I use a large funnel with a hose that I purchased from an auto parts store. The uneven lines look almost like surge marks from developer not being evenly entered into the system.

Good luck and I hope it works out for you, I am sure with a little time and testing you will figure it out.

ic-racer
23-Jul-2012, 07:05
Those negatives show up positive on my screen. When I invert them it looks like there is not enough developer in the drum. I can't find any reference to the volume of developer in the tank. I get even results with 470ml of T-max developer in a 3010 and no presoak.

Bruce Watson
23-Jul-2012, 13:15
OK, there's your problem. The streaks are from the developer not initially being distributed correctly as it flows on the film.

Yep. That's exactly what causes this kind of streaking. Glad somebody finally said it. So...

1) drop the prewash
2) don't use development times below 5 minutes
3) use the development workflow that Brian suggests

Should see your problems gone.

As an aside, it looks as if your exposure might be too high, which might account for your density at this (very) short development time. But without some densitometer readings I'm just guessing.

timparkin
23-Jul-2012, 13:39
1) drop the prewash


What problem is the pre-wash causing?

timparkin
23-Jul-2012, 13:44
Part of the reason for that is Kodak doesn't recommend a prewash anymore, particularly with Xtol. In some instructions, it states a prewash requires a 10% longer development time to counter the diluting that occurs from water left in the tank after a prewash.

What's wrong with 10% extra development time? Kodak perhaps say not to use a pre-wash to get around problems with variable wetting amounts and potential for water ph to affect the final development times. I can't see how it could affect the rate of development across the film, only help it.

Tim

Greg Davis
23-Jul-2012, 14:47
What's wrong with 10% extra development time? Kodak perhaps say not to use a pre-wash to get around problems with variable wetting amounts and potential for water ph to affect the final development times. I can't see how it could affect the rate of development across the film, only help it.

Tim

There is nothing wrong with using a prewet or increasing the published times by 10% to compensate for a prewash. I am merely stating that is what Kodak says in their publications. They no longer include a prewet in the instructions, and state if one is used, then compensate your time for the reduced contrast that will happen. I am guessing the extra time is needed either from a slight dilution from any remaining water, or more likely, extra time needed to displace the water in the gelatin emulsion from the prewet. Because they do not include it in their instructions, their recommended development times are based on not using one.

timparkin
23-Jul-2012, 14:56
There is nothing wrong with using a prewet or increasing the published times by 10% to compensate for a prewash. I am merely stating that is what Kodak says in their publications. They no longer include a prewet in the instructions, and state if one is used, then compensate your time for the reduced contrast that will happen. I am guessing the extra time is needed either from a slight dilution from any remaining water, or more likely, extra time needed to displace the water in the gelatin emulsion from the prewet. Because they do not include it in their instructions, their recommended development times are based on not using one.

Ah OK - so really there is no reason not to do the pre-wash. I can understand that some people manage without but from my experience it has solved issues of uneven development *because* it slows down penetration of developer, hence allowing time for the developer to distribute itself around the tank.

Tim

Erik Larsen
23-Jul-2012, 14:57
It's quite simple to rig up a way to pour the solution in on a roller base while it is spinning. It might help with your problems. Here's a pic of a simple wood stand to hold my funnel and 3005 drum. Made with spare wood laying around in the shed and a coat of poly urethane.
erik

Greg Blank
23-Jul-2012, 15:19
Erik;
Glad to see you are making good use of that and getting good results ;)


It's quite simple to rig up a way to pour the solution in on a roller base while it is spinning. It might help with your problems. Here's a pic of a simple wood stand to hold my funnel and 3005 drum. Made with spare wood laying around in the shed and a coat of poly urethane.
erik

Erik Larsen
23-Jul-2012, 19:14
Erik;
Glad to see you are making good use of that and getting good results ;)

Works like a charm, I'm quite happy with the hundreds of sheets I've put through it so far.

SamReeves
23-Jul-2012, 20:23
More juice. My Jobo is level east, west, north and south…but the f'er didn't like less than 600mL of chemistry with the 3010. Go figure, but Jobo's recommended volumes are much too low.

Bruce Watson
24-Jul-2012, 14:13
What problem is the pre-wash causing?

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?36750-Xtol-dilution-and-pre-rinse

timparkin
24-Jul-2012, 14:25
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?36750-Xtol-dilution-and-pre-rinse

Thanks for the response Bruce.. That sounds like the only problem is development time (or overall density) which isn't an issue?

I'm wondering if pre-rinse is causing any issues beyond limiting the rate at which developer starts to work by slowing down it's penetration into the emulsion.

Tim

Lenny Eiger
24-Jul-2012, 16:18
More juice. My Jobo is level east, west, north and south…but the f'er didn't like less than 600mL of chemistry with the 3010. Go figure, but Jobo's recommended volumes are much too low.

I think you are absolutely correct. I think that changing the amount of liquid is well, to be polite, not recommended. Especially at the level they suggest. Another person said he used 750ml's. I use 1250 ml's for each tank. I've done endless amounts in a 3005 and 3010 and it has always been consistent. Xtol is fairly cheap.

I also use a presoak for 5 minutes. I don't care about an extra minute of developing time. My times are 5-8 minutes at 1:1 (72F). Who would care about a 10% difference. Presoak is a smart thing to do. It means that the developer will spread more evenly, initially, when it first hits the film. This is good.

Lenny

SamReeves
24-Jul-2012, 16:48
I think you are absolutely correct. I think that changing the amount of liquid is well, to be polite, not recommended. Especially at the level they suggest. Another person said he used 750ml's. I use 1250 ml's for each tank. I've done endless amounts in a 3005 and 3010 and it has always been consistent. Xtol is fairly cheap.

I also use a presoak for 5 minutes. I don't care about an extra minute of developing time. My times are 5-8 minutes at 1:1 (72F). Who would care about a 10% difference. Presoak is a smart thing to do. It means that the developer will spread more evenly, initially, when it first hits the film. This is good.

Lenny

Yep, I'm sticking to a pre-wet too. I've been preweting with Jobos since the 1990's. Although I'm using old boring D-76 1:1, I still encountered the same problems. Until I figured out it didn't have enough juice.

Jim Cole
25-Jul-2012, 05:39
I use 4x5 and 8x10 Acros in 3010 and 3005 tanks. Never a problem with a 5 minute prewash and my uneven development ended when I started using 600-700ml minimum of developer solution as others have suggested. I also always add all water and chemicals while the tank is spinning. No problems since I started following all these rules a few years ago.

tgtaylor
25-Jul-2012, 08:35
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?36750-Xtol-dilution-and-pre-rinse

Since that thread I have switched to rotary processing all sheet film (4x5 and 8x10, color and B&W) and do not use a pre-rinse. However I continue to hand process 35mm and 120 B&W and always use a pre-rinse but only to bring the film and drum to the proper processing temperature which for me is 68F. Otherwise the temperature of the developer will rise or fall to reach an equilibrium with the tank. When rotary processing I always start the unit with a trough temperature of around 64 or 65F. When the temperarure in the trough reaches 68F then I know the chemistry, drum, and film is at 68 also and begin processing.

Thomas

Greg Blank
25-Jul-2012, 12:19
Here is my Y-tube video of how the Expert drum works on the CPP2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0ZsaHw93B4&feature=g-upl

Steve Barber
25-Jul-2012, 19:04
5-10 min prewash (multiple water changes [~2-3])/ flip direction per wash
4 min dev /flip direction every 30s
1 min wash with water /flip direction every 30s
6 min Tetanol super fix plus /flip direction every 3min
1 min wash with water /flip direction every 30s
3x 5 min wash with water /flip direction per water changes
take negs out of drum and immerse in water+tetanol mirasol
dry on clothesline initially "mopping" away the excess buildup of water at bottom edge




Why no stop bath? You do not mention a stop bath following development and I see where Kodak recommends it in their datasheet.

Joseph O'Neil
26-Jul-2012, 06:31
I use a jobo tank for my 4x5, but I use older unicolour motorized bases. I have always used a presoak of 5 minutes, and in my case, it seems to help with even development. you mileage may and can vary, as the saying goes.

Two specific thoughts. First off, with my local water supply, which is very hard, I never had good results with Xtol and local tap water, I always have to use distilled and/or filtered water. I also find you have to follow the instructions EXACTLY on mixing Xtol to get good results. Secondly, I think - as identified with others - 4 minutes is too short. For me, I find I have the best results overall with a weak developer and extended developing times. Not just for 4x5 and rotary development, but all B&W processing from 35mm film to fibre based 20x24" prints. Go weak, do slow, and in the case of film, go one shot developer. For me, that works the best

good luck

joe

l2oBiN
26-Jul-2012, 08:22
Thank you for kindly for all your insights.

========================================
To answer some questions...
========================================

You need 100 ml stock Xtol per 80 square inches, not 100 ml per 4x5 sheet (20 square inches)
Its 100mL of Xtol 1:1, (i.e. 50mL Xtol + 50mL h2o)



I am assuming you are loading the film with the emulsion side in.
The film is loaded emulsion side facing the time center. The notches face the top of the tube/drum i.e. the side the lid attaches to.



Why no stop bath? You do not mention a stop bath following development and I see where Kodak recommends it in their datasheet.
I found (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?68658-XTOL-with-FOMA-100-white-specks-in-1-1&highlight=xtol)it causes white specs on fomapan and trix. Tried water and it eliminated the specs...

========================================

So, gathering from the various replies I should;


1. Use a prewash [slows down the penetration of the developer]

It is still unclear to me how long the prewash should be and what are the negative side effects of a longer pre-wash (e.g. 2-5 min versus 10+ min)?

2. Pour the developer in while the drum is rotating [helps with even application of developer across they negative]

This is also a little unclear because if the the entry/pouring is too slow, would that not result in the same problem? Perhaps point 3 will take care of that...

3. Use at least 750ml of developer per run [accounts for cross-negative development variation arising from potential small differences in the structure of each drum chamber as well as variation in drum rotation]

4. Use a longer development time [ensures consistency between development and minimises small variations in development across time]
Perhaps I need to set down to 1:2 or 1:3 extol. I hope the grain is not going to be too big..???


Further Concern:

Could the developer "pour out" cause the variation. Once the development time is done, I empty the tank by hand (turning it upside down). Could this (at least in theory) cause part of the negative to remain in contact with the developer for a longer period of time, causing the uneven swirls?

Greg Blank
26-Jul-2012, 12:01
Ten minutes is going to swell the emulsion a lot- there by reducing the developers action. 2-3 minutes will remove the anti halation backing which is one of the prime reasons to prewet. My understanding was Kodak films do better with it and Ilford does not recommend it.

The main issue is dispelling air trapped on the surface or behind the film. Faster rotation and bi-direction seems to do this well, I have also tipped the drum up slightly then back down to resume the process...works also achieving even results.

If you look at my video as suggested you would that 250 does cover all sheets as the drum spins each tube has enough chemicals, the core issue is enough chemical to actually process the silver....not the bare minimum coverage. I go with 500ml most times and sometimes run two baths of developer. So folks don't get this but cummulative dev time is all that matters.

Last run a film test, shoot a grey card or better a calibration chart for exposure for the lens intended, then you will know all the answers. Exposure speed and developer dilution time and temp.



Thank you for kindly for all your insights.

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To answer some questions...
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Its 100mL of Xtol 1:1, (i.e. 50mL Xtol + 50mL h2o)



The film is loaded emulsion side facing the time center. The notches face the top of the tube/drum i.e. the side the lid attaches to.



I found (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?68658-XTOL-with-FOMA-100-white-specks-in-1-1&highlight=xtol)it causes white specs on fomapan and trix. Tried water and it eliminated the specs...

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So, gathering from the various replies I should;


1. Use a prewash [slows down the penetration of the developer]

It is still unclear to me how long the prewash should be and what are the negative side effects of a longer pre-wash (e.g. 2-5 min versus 10+ min)?

2. Pour the developer in while the drum is rotating [helps with even application of developer across they negative]

This is also a little unclear because if the the entry/pouring is too slow, would that not result in the same problem? Perhaps point 3 will take care of that...

3. Use at least 750ml of developer per run [accounts for cross-negative development variation arising from potential small differences in the structure of each drum chamber as well as variation in drum rotation]

4. Use a longer development time [ensures consistency between development and minimises small variations in development across time]
Perhaps I need to set down to 1:2 or 1:3 extol. I hope the grain is not going to be too big..???


Further Concern:

Could the developer "pour out" cause the variation. Once the development time is done, I empty the tank by hand (turning it upside down). Could this (at least in theory) cause part of the negative to remain in contact with the developer for a longer period of time, causing the uneven swirls?

Steve Barber
26-Jul-2012, 15:12
“The film is loaded emulsion side facing the time center. The notches face the top of the tube/drum i.e. the side the lid attaches to.”

I thought of this, earlier, but had the impression that it was not the problem. What you wrote, however, makes me wonder about it again. Just to be clear, if you are loading with the notch codes at the top, what is important is that the notch code is on the right with the film between you and the interior surface of the drum tube you are loading it into.

SamReeves
26-Jul-2012, 20:01
If you look at my video as suggested you would that 250 does cover all sheets as the drum spins each tube has enough chemicals, the core issue is enough chemical to actually process the silver....not the bare minimum coverage. I go with 500ml most times and sometimes run two baths of developer. So folks don't get this but cummulative dev time is all that matters..

Unfortunately the drum is off the lift at the beginning of the video, thus not letting us see if 250mL did cover the film.

Greg Blank
27-Jul-2012, 12:43
Not sure if you looked at the complete video, I made it with my Iphone- so polished it is not. It was non-scripted and part of an article written for View Camera magazine. My goal was to show that once the drum is spinning that the chemistry covers the complete length of the tube....which it does and is apparent when one looks at the sequence shot from the control side of the drum. The rear view shows the action of the chemistry inside the tubes, sort of an ocean wave effect. if you mark a specific tube when it is on the top spinning down almost all chemistry is absent, on the downside when a specific tube is lowest more or most chemistry is in that tube. When the tubes are approaching the mid way spot raising or lowering chemistry is flowing in the tubes front to back. So the film is receiving agitation and new chemicals from the moving chemicals at least 3/4 of the time and air pockets should be removed by this agitation. That is when the drum spins bi-directionally.



Unfortunately the drum is off the lift at the beginning of the video, thus not letting us see if 250mL did cover the film.

SamReeves
27-Jul-2012, 15:18
Not sure if you looked at the complete video, I made it with my Iphone- so polished it is not. It was non-scripted and part of an article written for View Camera magazine. My goal was to show that once the drum is spinning that the chemistry covers the complete length of the tube....which it does and is apparent when one looks at the sequence shot from the control side of the drum. The rear view shows the action of the chemistry inside the tubes, sort of an ocean wave effect. if you mark a specific tube when it is on the top spinning down almost all chemistry is absent, on the downside when a specific tube is lowest more or most chemistry is in that tube. When the tubes are approaching the mid way spot raising or lowering chemistry is flowing in the tubes front to back. So the film is receiving agitation and new chemicals from the moving chemicals at least 3/4 of the time and air pockets should be removed by this agitation. That is when the drum spins bi-directionally.

I'm not convinced on that liquid engineering even with bi-directional rotation. Big cavernous drums need more juice to get it all covered. If it were a 2500 series drum where the engineering is totally different without 5 pockets, then you can conserve all the chemicals you want. In a 3010 it's better to play it safe so all slots are getting chemistry to them. I'm sticking with 600mL.

jeroldharter
27-Jul-2012, 22:08
Developer is cheap and these problems are vexing and time consuming. For the 3010, just use 1 liter of chems and be done with it. For standardization, it is best to have excess developer regardless of the number of sheets rather than cutting it close. Plus, it is easy to remember.

Greg Blank
28-Jul-2012, 10:06
Hey Sam, personally I don't advocate less than 500ml I use that with my average run of 3-4 sheets. I also agree Jobos minimum is way too low. So we are on the same page more or less.


I'm not convinced on that liquid engineering even with bi-directional rotation. Big cavernous drums need more juice to get it all covered. If it were a 2500 series drum where the engineering is totally different without 5 pockets, then you can conserve all the chemicals you want. In a 3010 it's better to play it safe so all slots are getting chemistry to them. I'm sticking with 600mL.

Greg Blank
28-Jul-2012, 10:15
This is true and yet 1000 ml as a single step is probably hard on the motor regardless of the version. Breaking the 1000ml into two evenly timed 500ml developer steps is no more difficult and puts way less strain on the motor and circuitry.


Developer is cheap and these problems are vexing and time consuming. For the 3010, just use 1 liter of chems and be done with it. For standardization, it is best to have excess developer regardless of the number of sheets rather than cutting it close. Plus, it is easy to remember.

Michael Alpert
29-Jul-2012, 11:52
I have been facing this problem for quite some time. I can't seem to figure out why this is happening. Any suggestions?

Everyone wants to help you, but no one is addressing your real problem. You are using your Expert Drum in a way that was never intended. You are also fabricating processing times and procedures that do not correspond to any established methodology. God knows what else you are doing incorrectly. By dreaming up your own darkroom practice, you are, so to speak, shooting yourself in the foot--perhaps both feet. I suggest that you (1) buy a Jobo processor (with lift) for your drum, (2) read Jobo's manual (which is filled with good, reliable information) cover to cover; and (3) follow Jobo's instructions to the letter. When you follow instructions, the problems that you have created will magically disappear. If you cannot afford a processor, follow the standard times and methods for tray processing, or find and follow another standard established film-processing method.

originalphoto
29-Jul-2012, 22:03
even you just develop a single sheet of film, you need to add minimux of 300 ml developer and other wise you could end up with uneven developed film that is my experience.

LF_rookie_to_be
10-Aug-2012, 14:00
-Pured dev on opposite compartments of the jobo 3010 in reference to film


Here's what I did:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?42835-Jobo-drum-question&highlight=jobo+3010

It solved all problems before they could even appear. No processor needed.