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Alan Gales
3-Jul-2012, 21:26
A real good friend of mine has a very clean Super Speed Graphic with a 1/1000 sec Optar lens. I think its cool due to being metal instead of wood and having a rotating back. These are two features that I really like. I'm trying to trade him out of it if possible. To me it seems much cooler than a Speed Graphic or Crown. I don't need a focal plane shutter. What do you all think?

Frank Petronio
3-Jul-2012, 21:32
Those 1/1000th leaf shutters were not known for being reliable or easy to repair. The bodies are nice though.

joselsgil
3-Jul-2012, 21:36
If you can purchase it from your friend for a sweet price and still remain friends. Go for it!

If it turns out that you don't like the camera, you can always sell it.

Alan Gales
3-Jul-2012, 21:46
Thanks Frank. I never knew about the shutters being unreliable and hard to repair. Like I said I'm trying to trade him out of it. I have offered him a digital Pentax spotmeter and he is thinking about it. I'd like to use a 210 and 135 mm with it. Are lens boards different than the regular Speed or Crown?

John Kasaian
3-Jul-2012, 21:50
I don't know about "cool" but I sure wouldn't mind having a Super Speed. As Frank points out, that shutter does have a bad reputation but you can mount about any lens/shutter that fits.
Deardorffs however, are definately cool!

Frank Petronio
3-Jul-2012, 21:58
You can shim Crown/Speed boards or find the proper boards with bumps on all four edges. Don't bother with the electric release nowadays....

Alan Gales
3-Jul-2012, 22:02
Thanks joselsgil and John.

John, I know Deardorffs are definitely cool but I own a Wehman. Not as pretty but gets the job done. I also own a Tachihara 4x5 in mint- condition which I paid $650.00 brand new. I'm thinking about selling it due to the crazy prices they are going on Ebay lately. A cheap Super Speed is enticing!

Alan Gales
3-Jul-2012, 22:07
You can shim Crown/Speed boards or find the proper boards with bumps on all four edges. Don't bother with the electric release nowadays....

Thanks Frank. Shimming would be no problem. I just want cheap boards. I planned to use a regular cable release. Thanks for all the advice!

Jim Andrada
3-Jul-2012, 22:54
You can buy new boards at several places. They're easy to bore out to size as they're just aluminum. I use a lathe for boring them but hole saws in a drill press will work. A small piece of gaffer tape in the right place will usually be thick enough to mount a board without the side bumps well enough. At least it works for me for the few non Super boards I have. I made an adapter to mount the boards on my Seneca and I also have an adapter that lets me mount the super board on my Linhof boards so I mount just about any lens that's small enough in a Graphic board - makes it easy to switch lenses among cameras. I also use a cable release. Before I got it someone had modified my camera to take a Linhof hand grip - works very nicely.

Jim Jones
3-Jul-2012, 23:20
Since buying a Super Graphic just for that high speed between-the-lens shutter is risky, why not consider the several other makes of cameras with similar features. The later B&J metal body press cameras have good front movements and a rotating back, and should be cheaper than the Super. They also use the same easy to fabricate lens board as the Anniversary Graphic. Busch and Meridian usually sell for more than the B&J. The Pacemaker series of SG were well made and had an extensive variety of available accessories. Don't be put off by their wooden bodies: the company had well learned how to make quality cameras by then.

Kuzano
4-Jul-2012, 06:36
Since buying a Super Graphic just for that high speed between-the-lens shutter is risky, why not consider the several other makes of cameras with similar features. The later B&J metal body press cameras have good front movements and a rotating back, and should be cheaper than the Super. They also use the same easy to fabricate lens board as the Anniversary Graphic. Busch and Meridian usually sell for more than the B&J. The Pacemaker series of SG were well made and had an extensive variety of available accessories. Don't be put off by their wooden bodies: the company had well learned how to make quality cameras by then.

The Super Graphic has two additional movements on the front which are not often found by many users. There is a chrome tab at the bottom of the front standard, and if you push down, you will find swing and side shift on the front movements. There is a tweak that can be done by reversing the front standard which gives more front tilt.

As mentioned the 1000 shutter w/rodenstock lens is not reliable, and I have been told that with the best CLA and under the best circumstances, lucky to get 1/800th speed.

The red shutter release mechanism is often incapacitated. The batteries are very expensive. Cams for the rangefinder are often lost, and each lens focal length requires a different cam. There is a source on the internet for measurements to cut the cams.

The front (red button) release relies on three ribbon cables that run inside the folds of the bellows to transfer current to the solenoid on the front standard to operate it. Plus that, the front release requires a special lens board that has linkage inside to trip the shutter from the solenoid. (Chances are you have that board if you have the 1/1000 shutter on this camera).

However by now most red button shutters are non-operational. Battery doors are often lost as well by this time.

I use a lightened Super Speed Graphic. Weight reduced stripping all the rangefinder and handholding equipment out and tweaking all the movements for the most. Now considering another tweak for some back movement. I have "flat topped" the body taking an inch off the top. (This was a non operational and non redeemable Super Graphic- I would not disable a good Super or Super Speed Graphic). The difference between a Super and a Super Speed is that the Super Speed came equipped with the 1/1000 Rodenstock lens and shutter. The name plate on the door indicates which one it is. So if you have a Super Speed name plate but not the fast Rodenstock lens, it is the same as a Super.

There are a couple of pages on Steve Gandy's Cameraquest site (http://www.cameraquest.com/supergrp.htm) that thoroughly outline the features and advantages and features of the Super/Super Speed, including the "hidden" front movements as I refer to them. In addition, he has a page that explains all the movement tweaks, and a page that shows one person's mod of the back for some back tilt.

Graflex sold the rights to the Super/Super Speed to Toyo, and they were made by Toyo for a while as predecessor to the Toyo 45 metal field cameras. The Toyo model name plate indicates Super or Super Speed with the name Toyo after, and are quite hard to find.

Dan Fromm
4-Jul-2012, 06:43
Hmm. Graflex offered two versions of the Super Graphic, identical in all respects except that the one sold as Super Speed Graphic had the infamous 1/1000 shutter. The plain Super Graphic was offered with normal lenses in other shutters.

The Super Graphic (both versions) has two advantages over Pacemaker Graphics (Crown and Speed). As Kuzano pointed out, it offers better movements. And it has a rotating back. Pacemaker Graphics' native orientation is landscape; they have to be put on their sides -- by an odd coincidence there's a tripod socket on the side -- to shoot in portrait orientation.

The Super Graphic has one large weakness relative to Pacemakers. Pacemakers' inner and outer bed rails (yokes, in Graphic-speak) are linked, making focusing with short lenses that make infinity with the front standard on the inner rails easy. The Super Graphic's inner bed rails are fixed, so with a Super short lenses have to be focused by tugging/pushing on the front standard.

"Coolness" is a poor reason for doing anything.

Joseph Dickerson
4-Jul-2012, 08:47
Just a small correction to what Kuzano says, you don't have to modify the front standard on a Super Graphic to achieve front/forward tilt. The Supers had that as standard. On the Crown/Anniversaries et al, the front tilt only tilted to the rear and needed to be modified to tilt forward.

The 1/1000 shutter speed was never really that fast, most seemed to top out at 1/750th or so. At least that's what I remember was the wisdom back in the day. Actually, the Super is the only Graphic I'd even consider as a user. I actually used to sell the things when i worked in a camera shop. No need to go into how long ago that was. :rolleyes:

JD

Ivan J. Eberle
4-Jul-2012, 09:18
I think it's one of the most hand-holdable 4x5s, especially if the electric release yet works. Shutter propagation time on the 1/1000 Super Speed was extremely low, but so were TLR Rolleis. I can think of some peak of action sports shots where that'd be critical. These were a Newsie's camera toward the end of the era where 4x5s were necessary (offset printing changeover).
I liked my beater SG but kept the Meridian instead for better wide-angle handling.

Alan Gales
4-Jul-2012, 09:28
Thanks everyone, you have all been a big help! Now the hard part of talking my friend into trading. He has it sitting in a display case in his home.

Dan, as far as cool goes, I'm just joking around. :) I like the fact that it is robust, easy and fast to set up, and I can change to portrait orientation easily. I plan on shooting people outdoors sometimes alone and sometimes in small groups.

Peter York
4-Jul-2012, 09:40
"Coolness" is a poor reason for doing anything.

Dan, coolness has utility. It helps build social capital. :D

In my opinion, though, the Pacemakers are the coolest!

photobymike
4-Jul-2012, 09:49
Its always puzzled me why you would need a rotating back on a graphic... added weight and expense ... i just turned the camera sideways for a vertical

Alan Gales
4-Jul-2012, 10:00
You make a very good point but if you have the camera mounted on a tripod it's faster and easier to spin the back instead of adjusting the tripod head. Just convenience really.

IanG
4-Jul-2012, 10:14
Its always puzzled me why you would need a rotating back on a graphic... added weight and expense ... i just turned the camera sideways for a vertical

Pacemaker Graphics have some although poor tilt + rise/fall in landscape mode but none at all in portrait mode, the Super Graphic's rotating back along with better movements overcome this. If Graflex had brought out the Super Graphics in the late 1940's the'd have possibly survived a lot longer.

Ian

Peter York
4-Jul-2012, 10:35
Pacemaker Graphics have some although poor tilt + rise/fall in landsacpe mode but none at all in portrait mode, the Super Graphic's rotating back along with better movements overcome this. If Graflex had brought out the Super Graphics in the late 1940's the'd have possibly survived a lot longer.


With a top rangefinder Pacemaker you can reverse the standard to easily get forward tilt. I'm not sure if this works with a Kalart - I think the rangefinder interferes with the reversed standard. With this configuration, if you choose your wideangles carefully (easier for moderate-wides with a speed because the body is deeper) they will rest on the inner rails, and you avoid the problem of having to tilt the lens backwards with the bed dropped.

There are DIY instructions on how to grind down part of the front standard to achieve some front swing. Which means you can get some tilt, swing and shift in portrait mode. Yes, these movements are limited.

For me the Super lies between a Press and a Technical camera, and if I want a technical camera, I certainly want one with more movements that the Super. For this reason, I think the Pacemakers are the apex of Graflex. They are marvellously engineered press cameras. The Super is a poorly-engineered technical.

Jim Andrada
4-Jul-2012, 10:46
Another thing I like about my Super is that it's easy to pop the folding focusing shade assembly off completely and focus under a cloth - makes it so much easier to use a loupe.

I also have a Crown and honestly I sort of like it better - particularly when I want to use a 75 mm lens as was stated above. Super front tilt is also nice but depressing the silly tabs to release it is a bit fiddly. With the mod that was done to it to use a Linhof hand grip it is easy to use a cable release which seats in the grip - I've never tried to use the electric shutter even though I have a couple of sets of the batteries.

Re cool - I got one of the Graflex flash guns and a few dozen flash bulbs - it works fine and it's great fun to hand the whole thing to a waitress and ask her to take a picture. Sort of like handing a slide rule to a recent engineering grad and watching him try to figure out what it is.

John Kasaian
5-Jul-2012, 09:16
Thanks joselsgil and John.

John, I know Deardorffs are definitely cool but I own a Wehman. Not as pretty but gets the job done. I also own a Tachihara 4x5 in mint- condition which I paid $650.00 brand new. I'm thinking about selling it due to the crazy prices they are going on Ebay lately. A cheap Super Speed is enticing!

Whenever I think of the Supers, I think of---
http://graflex.org/articles/experiences/vacchiano/
:cool:

photobymike
5-Jul-2012, 11:44
Whenever I think of the Supers, I think of---
http://graflex.org/articles/experiences/vacchiano/
:cool:

Good article ... but the pictures ech.... like most photographers they over sharpen for the computer screen...

If you want to rotate or get some swings and tilts, there is a cheaper camera used that would fit the need.... Omega or Toyo .. 200 bucks and you can swing and tilt the cows come home... Whatever happen to the right tool for the job... why would you want your Graflex to do everything... where did that mentality come from.. I have a Canon F1 that i wish had a rotating back or could swing and tilt more.... Graflex is a great camera ..had a couple myself... Just cuz its a 4x5 with some features, does not mean it has to work like a Linhof <really great camera ... but big bucks... I just dont understand photographers that pay 300 hundred for a Crown or a Speed and then lament cuz they cant get a the swings and tilts they want.... its a Graflex ... !!

I knew a guy that could fix any car with pliers and a screw diver.... now that guy (Jack Sweet) was an artist....

John Kasaian
5-Jul-2012, 17:11
Come to think of it all Graflex cameras are cool!:cool:

photobymike
5-Jul-2012, 19:34
Name another camera that enjoyed the history and longevity as a Graflex. American made; went thru WWII with some of the most iconic images ever taken with any camera. Heck Yea The greatest camera ever made right along with leica .... Its an American icon like Chevrolet apple pie and Baseball ... Graflex used to promote the lader .... John yea Cool Great ....

Ivan J. Eberle
5-Jul-2012, 20:14
The Super Graphic might have been dominant had it come along in '46 instead of '57; but it might also have been upstaged by the Meridian 45C (I've got a prototype) had PK not pulled the marque to re-import Linhofs instead. Coolest, I think, is that these cameras are yet capturing spectacular images on vastly better emulsions than were available 50 or 60 years ago.

Vaughn
5-Jul-2012, 20:22
Come to think of it all Graflex cameras are cool!:cool:

Even my Graflex 22 (Model 200) is cool. A bare-bones TLR, 6x6 with a 85mm/3.5 Graftar taking lens. Manufactured after Graflex, Inc bought the rights, tools and so forth of the Ciro-Flex. Though I must admit I take the Rolleiflex out when I go MF. But the Graflex 22 might be the camera to take out kayaking until one has a system down for keeping things safe and dry...or for other less than safe circumstances that I do not wish to risk the Rollei.

We have a Graphic View II we check out to students -- shoot, I may have checked it out as a student 30 or so years ago. With the red bellows it is a beautiful camera in an American industrial sort of way. Still works fine, though it has needed some tune-ups through the years. It does not get a lot of use. Students tend to go for the field 4x5's or the more modern (but 20 years old) Calumet 4x5 monorails first.

Vaughn

cyrus
6-Jul-2012, 14:21
Realistically speaking, you probably won't use any movements if you use this camera handheld.

IanG
7-Jul-2012, 01:39
With a top rangefinder Pacemaker you can reverse the standard to easily get forward tilt. I'm not sure if this works with a Kalart - I think the rangefinder interferes with the reversed standard. With this configuration, if you choose your wideangles carefully (easier for moderate-wides with a speed because the body is deeper) they will rest on the inner rails, and you avoid the problem of having to tilt the lens backwards with the bed dropped.

There are DIY instructions on how to grind down part of the front standard to achieve some front swing. Which means you can get some tilt, swing and shift in portrait mode. Yes, these movements are limited.


Reversing the front standard means the camera won't close with a side mounted rangeinder, and it does nothing to really improve usage.

I have modified a Super Graphic front standard to fit a Pacemaker (and pre & Anniverasry Speed Graphic despite being told that there was no way it could be done, actually it just needs some grinding.

Ian

Frank Petronio
7-Jul-2012, 04:16
Hate to admit it but a Crown Graphic is much lighter, and therefor easier to handhold than a Linhof Technika. The Technika has a superior grip and rangefinder, and adequate movements for field work making it a much better all-arounder.

But for press photographers who used flash bulbs liberally and could stop down to minimize focusing errors, I'd rather carry a Crown.

The Super Speed I had was fine, but the extra bits on it kind of bothered me, I like the stripped down Crown.

Since Graflex soldiered on until the 70s, I doubt a better camera design in the late 40s would have made a long-term difference. I think it was the US government's policy of transferring our optical industry technology and military contracts to the Japanese as part of their rebuilding that really did them in. We lost a lot of camera building capability and knowledge that way. But I don't want to get rebanned for bring up politics - I mean the truth.

Steve Smith
7-Jul-2012, 05:27
Its an American icon like Chevrolet apple pie and Baseball

The last two have English origins!

Personally, I think the rotating back of the Super Graphic is enough of a feature to make me want one regardless of any other advantages it might have.


Steve.

Steve Smith
7-Jul-2012, 05:29
I have modified a Super Graphic front standard to fit a Pacemaker........ despite being told that there was no way it could be done

That would be enough to make me do it.


Steve.

Jim Jones
7-Jul-2012, 07:30
That's the spirit, Steve! Without people willing to tackle the impossible, progress would be lethargic.

Steve Smith
7-Jul-2012, 08:02
I run into a lot of negativity at work. People are quick to give reasons why something won't work but are very reluctant to try it out or suggest methods which will work. I would rather try something and know for sure if it works or not rather than speculate.

I was most impressed with Polaroid pioneer Edwin Land when reading his biography. He didn't like finding a solution to a problem quickly as although that gave him an answer, it didn't tell him what the variables in the process were. he preferred to do lots of trial and error. A process he called success through failure.


Without people willing to tackle the impossible, progress would be lethargic.

Ironically, the Edwin Land book is titled 'Insisting on the Impossible'.


Steve.

photobymike
7-Jul-2012, 10:17
The last two have English origins!

Personally, I think the rotating back of the Super Graphic is enough of a feature to make me want one regardless of any other advantages it might have.


Steve.

LOL yea so does America.... with due respect to our friends across the pond..... :-)

Replace the shutter if you get one thats original... then again you dont see many original lenses on the super these days

Kuzano
7-Jul-2012, 11:19
LOL yea so does America.... with due respect to our friends across the pond..... :-)

Replace the shutter if you get one thats original... then again you dont see many original lenses on the super these days

The Key word on the front of a Super/SuperSpeed is SPEED. As far as I know the only difference (watch somebody make me wrong) was the word SPEED on the front of the camera, when it was equipped from Graflex with the 1000 shutter and Rodenstock lens.

If the word SPEED does not appear, but just the words Super Graphic, it never came with the wind-up chrome 1/1000 shutter or the rodenstock lens as standard. The camera with Super SPEED Graphic on the door was the upgrade, in lens only I believe. I struggled with that for some time.

I had only one Super SPEED, and the 1000 shutter. It was a miserable shutter, while the rodenstock lens was good. Shutter speeds were all over the place at higher speeds. (Yeah Right! you get used to it and compensate)

All the others I owned were Supers and I had not nearly the problems shutter and lens wise.

So all those Supers that you see on eBay... look at the door. If you see a Super SPEED with a lens shutter other than the chrome ring hanging out in front, it's already been swapped out.

If you see a Super without the SPEED on the door, and it has the chrome ring, it's likely been "upgraded" by a user to the rather wonky 1000 shutter lens. (WHY? It never shot 1/1000 on it's best day. According to Fred Lustig, the components inside the 1/1000 shutter were too large and heavy to reach the top speed)

I spent so much time learning and wrestling with that useless information, I just had to say something.

disclosure: I expect to be corrected on some of this. However, I do not know if the marketing/availability of the Super vs the Super SPEED overlapped, or whether you could still order a Super, with the upgraded lens. My references here are merely from personal experience.

One more little tidbit... Graflex sold the Super to Toyo and Toyo place their own brand in front of the Super and it became the Toyo Super Graphic, on the name badge on the door... predecessor to the Toyo metal field cameras. There is a Toyo Super Graphic on eBay at this time at $1495 Buy It Now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GRAFLEX-TOYO-SUPER-GRAPHIC-50-0200353-4X5-CAMERA-F4-7-127MM-LENS-/150732160002?pt=US_Vintage_Cameras&hash=item2318563c02