Getting started with a Graflex..

[Magua]

Hello. This is my first time posting. I have a little experience with film, only having taken a photography class with 35mm B&W film cameras years ago.

I have a R.B. Graflex Series B 4x5 camera that I inherited from my great-grandfather. It has a Cut Film Magazine attached to the camera. There is also a Graflex Film Pack Adapter. I think the film pack adapter still has film in it. There are tabs 8,9,10,11,12 sticking out the side; Kodak Super-XX. From what I read on the internet, this type of film-pack had been discontinued long ago. I think the Cut Film magazine might have film in it as well. When I lift the small door, I can see the number "9" behind the red window.

I am feeling a bit enthusiastic about this camera and the film it might contain. The idea of a 4" x 5" image "sensor", compared to the tiny CCD in digital cameras sounds overwhelming. I am thinking of developing the film in it and trying to use this camera. So, I have a few questions, maybe someone could help me out.

After 45+ years of sitting around, is it possible to develop the film that is in the camera and holder? It would be awesome to develop film that was taken by my great-grandfather so many years ago. I've never worked with this type of film and camera. I do not know how to open the film pack or develop it.

Could the unexposed films 8,9,10,11,12 be used to take photographs today and still produce an image?

If I decide to use this camera, can anyone recommend how I should go about it, and what would the estimated costs be? I guess that I would need a different back to hold film. I would have to invest in film, darkroom equipment, chemicals, etc.

Thanks for any guidance and replies!

[Bill_1856]

The cut film magazine (known in the trade as a "bag-mag") is still one of the best ways to use a 4x5 camera,(provided the leather part hasn't rotted).
You need to get a copy of Graphic-Graflex Photrography, long out of print, but available often on eBay.
The film might still be good, but it probably isn't.

[Joe Smigiel]

You can probably find all the info needed at http://graflex.org/.

A couple suggestions follow regarding your plans on using/developing the film. Developing sheet film is not difficult, but it is different and harder than processing the 35mm film you may have used in class. I understand that the film in a film pack adapter is thinner than normal sheet film and is supplied in a long continuous strip that would complicate the process further. If you would really like to see if there are any pictures taken by your grandfather in the pack, I would suggest trying to find a photographer experienced with developing this type of film even if it means not shooting the rest of the pack. (It's probably fogged as a result of age anyway and with no experience using the camera, you might inadvertently do something wrong that would expose and ruin the film. I wouldn't chance that with this particular pack.)

You might also try to pick up a double-sided sheet film holder for this camera. I believe it takes special slotted Graflex holders. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.) They would be easier to use starting out than the bag magazine.

Have fun with it.

[Jay DeFehr]

Hi Magua,

The numbers in the window of the bag mag are on the septums, or metal film sleeves inside the holder, that might, or might not have film in them. The only way to check is to take the holder off the camera (be sure the dark slide is in place) into a dark room -- a completely dark room -- and open the holder. There's a hidden button on the bottom of the holder, under the leather, that releases the top cover. Once the holder is opened, you can remove the top septum and feel for film.

Any film you have is probably too old and fogged to get a good image, but you might be able to get some kind of image that might be interesting for you.

Operating the camera itself involves several steps. There's a shutter curtain at the focal plane (near the film), and exposure is set by choosing the width of the slot in the shutter curtain, given in fractions of an inch on the knob on the upper right side (from the operator position, or camera right) of the camera, in combination with the tension setting, given in numbers 1-5 or 6, and set by the knob on the lower right side, and the aperture, as set on the lens. There should be a table on the right side of the camera that gives combinations and their resulting exposure time values.

There is also a reflex mirror, set by the T-knob on the right side. The mirror has to be in the up position (so that you can see through the lens) to make an exposure. The shutter release is on the left side - bottom -front of the camera.

The exposure sequence is:

Set mirror in up position for focusing

Select curtain slit

Select tension number

Focus with the focus knob, right side - bottom - front

Release shutter with release lever, left side - bottom - front.

For your next exposure, the sequence is the same, but the tension number remains set, while the slit setting moves to the next widest setting, so if you want to make another exposure at the same exposure value, you need to re-set the slit, after re-setting the mirror.

If you remove the film holder, you can play with the settings and should be able to see the shutter working.

Operating the bag mag is as follows:

Remove dark slide

Make exposure

Actuate pull slider on the right side of the holder to move the front septum up into the bag

Grasp the septum and move it to the rear of the stack

Repeat

Film Pack Adapters were before my time, so I can't help you with those. I have a 3x4 Graflex, and it's a great camera, but the 4x5 is more practical, because there are more film stocks available in that format, and all of the associated equipment for film processing and printing. Graflex.org is a great resource, and there are some members here who are very familiar with all aspects of these cameras.

Good luck, and enjoy!

[cyrus]

I have yet to see a bagmag that is light tight. The leather just didn't take the usage too well, and dries up over time and cracks.

[Jay DeFehr]

I have yet to see a bagmag that is light tight. The leather just didn't take the usage too well, and dries up over time and cracks.

I must be lucky! I've never seen one that leaks. I have four and they all work perfectly.

[Magua]

Cool. Thanks for the quick and detailed replies, everyone. I think the leather bag on the "bag mag" is still in very good condition, but I have not inspected it fully. The whole camera looks to be in really good condition. I'll try to find an experienced person who might be able to develop the old films. I know that I would probably ruin it if I tried to do it myself. Having to extract and develop film, in pitch blackness, that I've never used, seems nearly impossible for me.

Are there many people still around that would have the darkroom setup for large format and would know how to develop these old film packs? Should I be looking for a camera store, or find an independent photographer? FWIW, I live near Chicago. Thanks!



You can probably find all the info needed at http://graflex.org/.

A couple suggestions follow regarding your plans on using/developing the film. Developing sheet film is not difficult, but it is different and harder than processing the 35mm film you may have used in class. I understand that the film in a film pack adapter is thinner than normal sheet film and is supplied in a long continuous strip that would complicate the process further. If you would really like to see if there are any pictures taken by your grandfather in the pack, I would suggest trying to find a photographer experienced with developing this type of film even if it means not shooting the rest of the pack. (It's probably fogged as a result of age anyway and with no experience using the camera, you might inadvertently do something wrong that would expose and ruin the film. I wouldn't chance that with this particular pack.)

You might also try to pick up a double-sided sheet film holder for this camera. I believe it takes special slotted Graflex holders. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.) They would be easier to use starting out than the bag magazine.

Have fun with it.

[RawheaD]

Get the back converted to a graflok back with rotation. Bert Saunders can send you the necessary adapter plates (bert saunders <bsaunders1@bak.rr.com>), you just need to score graflok part from Ebay.

[Jay DeFehr]

Get the back converted to a graflok back with rotation. Bert Saunders can send you the necessary adapter plates (bert saunders <bsaunders1@bak.rr.com>), you just need to score graflok part from Ebay.

I wouldn't convert the back. The Graflex back works perfectly for the job, unless one wants to shoot Polaroid, but since that is all but extinct, I don't see the point in converting, which would make the bag mag useless.

[jnantz]

great camera !

i have a series d (4x5 ) with a hand full of bag mags
( that don't leak ) and armloads of film holders.
before you expose your film, you might want to
remove the bagmag and see how active your shutter is.

if you have a friend who has a calumet shutter speed tester
or a repair shop that you can bring it to, it will be great help
giving you an idea what your speeds are.
that way you will know that the 1/4 inch slot at setting 1 is really 1/15th S and not 1 second :)

have fun !
john

[Magua]

I haven't done anything with photography in a long time. Besides the old Graflex, I just have a point-and-shoot digital. I was thinking I could test the shutter speed with some electronics test gear I have: Laser pointer, photo diode and oscilloscope. It should be fun to try.

I wonder about the quality of 4x5 film. It would seem to me that large format should offer much better image quality, compared to 35mm. Just because the film is so much bigger. Does this make sense?



great camera !

i have a series d (4x5 ) with a hand full of bag mags
( that don't leak ) and armloads of film holders.
before you expose your film, you might want to
remove the bagmag and see how active your shutter is.

if you have a friend who has a calumet shutter speed tester
or a repair shop that you can bring it to, it will be great help
giving you an idea what your speeds are.
that way you will know that the 1/4 inch slot at setting 1 is really 1/15th S and not 1 second :)

have fun !
john

[Bill_1856]

I wonder about the quality of 4x5 film. It would seem to me that large format should offer much better image quality, compared to 35mm. Just because the film is so much bigger. Does this make sense?

Only if the lens quality is good enough. Most of the lenses for Graflex cameras are several generations behind the latest multi-coated, aspherical zoom lenses on digital cameras.

[Jim Jones]

[QUOTE=Magua;906199]. . . I was thinking I could test the shutter speed with some electronics test gear I have: Laser pointer, photo diode and oscilloscope. It should be fun to try. . . .QUOTE]

You're set up to do a better job of testing shutter speeds than most of us. A laser pointer isn't necessary: any incandescent light source suffices. A low voltage high current lamp is best. The output of low current incandescent lamps varies slightly at a line voltage rate, although this won't affect basic accuracy. The photo diode should have a small aperature relative to the size of the narrowest slit in the shutter for best accuracy.

The lenses on old Graphics aren't the latest state-of-the-art, but many were and still are capable of fine photos. Consider this: a new lens for small format might have better resolution, but sheet film is much larger. This gives a net increase in detail over the whole image, even with lenses half a century old. Multicoating is necessary on today's complex zooms, but the Dagor and even the Rapid Rectilinear with only four air to glass interfaces did fairly well with no coating at all.

[Jay DeFehr]

Quality is subjective. Resolution, corrections, flare resistance are objective measurements. The qualities of old lenses produce images on large format film with qualities distinct from images made with modern lenses on smaller formats. It's up the the viewer to judge image quality.

[Jim Noel]

Film Packs were not one long strip of film. The film was roll film cut into 5" lengths. There were 16 exposures per pack. Each piece of film had a paper tab attached on which information could be written. As an exposure was made the next tab was pulled bringing the fresh film around the bottom and into position for exposure.
In the darkroom the pack could be opened, the exposed film removed for processing and the pack re-closed so the remainder of the film could be used.

Many people tore the paper tabs off when they pulled them. I preferred to leave them attached as it made it easier to take out the correct pieces of film for processing. I still have a few of these frozen. There is no better way to travel light with 4x5. Too bad they went out of favor.

[Jim Noel]

I forgot about processing the film. The exposed sheets may still be in the FPA in addition to that likely to be in the bag mag.

To develop it, get some D-76 and sodium benzotriazole. add about 100 ml of benzotriazole to each liter of diluted developer and give it a go.

If there is unused film, it will still record, but be slower than when new. It is likely also fogged and the benzotriazole wil be needed.

[Jay DeFehr]

Film Packs were not one long strip of film. The film was roll film cut into 5" lengths. There were 16 exposures per pack. Each piece of film had a paper tab attached on which information could be written. As an exposure was made the next tab was pulled bringing the fresh film around the bottom and into position for exposure.
In the darkroom the pack could be opened, the exposed film removed for processing and the pack re-closed so the remainder of the film could be used.

Many people tore the paper tabs off when they pulled them. I preferred to leave them attached as it made it easier to take out the correct pieces of film for processing. I still have a few of these frozen. There is no better way to travel light with 4x5. Too bad they went out of favor.

Thank you for this excellent description! As odd as it may seem, I've never read a description of how these FPAs worked, and I admit, despite your excellent description, it's still a little fuzzy in my head. I think I'll do a google search and see if I can find some illustrations. Thanks again!

[Hugo Zhang]

I must be lucky! I've never seen one that leaks. I have four and they all work perfectly.

Jay,

Do you have issues with dusts on the negatives with bag mag? I have a few bag bellows with my Super D and no matter how carefully, air blow each septum before loading the film and air blow inside the box, I try to load and unload the films, I seem to get tiny dusts on at least 3-4 negatives from each bag. I talked to Kim Weston the other day and he had the same problem and said they came from the inside of the leather bag and the only solution was to change the leather pouch into something that does not have small particles falling off.

I love those bag bellows though.

Hugo

[Louis Pacilla]

Hugo

Do you mean "Bag Mag" and NOT Bag bellows? Ah, I thought so.;)

[Hugo Zhang]

Louis,

I meant bag mag. Sorry about that.

Hugo

[Jay DeFehr]

Jay,

Do you have issues with dusts on the negatives with bag bellows? I have a few bag bellows with my Super D and no matter how carefully, air blow each septum before loading the film and air blow inside the box, I try to load and unload the films, I seem to get tiny dusts on at least 3-4 negatives from each bag. I talked to Kim Weston the other day and he had the same problem and said they came from the inside of the leather bag and the only solution was to change the leather pouch into something that does not have small particles falling off.

I love those bag bellows though.

Hugo

Hugo, it's hard for me to say where dust comes from, but it always seems to come from somewhere, whether I'm using a bag mag, a double sided holder, or a roll film holder. I haven't noticed an increase in dust with my bag mags, compared to other film holders, but I haven't made any formal evaluations, either.

To be honest, I don't shoot my Graflex much. When I first bought it, I bought 10 (I think) 25 sheet boxes each of Forte 200 and 400 from J&C, and another 100 sheet box marked "Pan Portrait 125", from an ebay seller, and I still have most of it in my freezer. I recently picked up a 6x9 roll holder for it, and I've put one roll through that, so I'm not really very experienced with any of this stuff. I should probably seel my outfit, but I have all this film, and this morning I read an article about using a film pack adapter (which I also have) as a wet plate holder, so maybe I'll give that a try.