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Pfiltz
28-Jun-2012, 04:35
Good day all. New to the forum and large format photography.... ;)

I've been shooting with my newly acquired RB67, and now have moved to a Speed Graphic as a starter for my LF experience.

I noticed yesterday, that I can't get the shutter to close on T or B settings on the lens, while using the cable release. The only way it will shut, is if I manually turn the shutter speed dial to 1, then I hear it closing.

I've also noticed that while turning the shutter speed dial, it kind of gets tighter for the lack of a better term, the more I get closer to the fastest setting, as in 400th I believe it is.

Not sure how long the camera has set, before getting in my hands. I bought it off Ebay from someone else. Someone else mentioned that I might try to get an older shutter release cable. This was one of his comments.....

The cable release has too long a shaft inserting into the shutter. Often, the old lenses used a shallow draft for the cable release. Look for a shorter shaft cable release. The old cloth bound cable releases are example of what you would need.

Second, look careful at your opening on the shutter, it may be designed to have NON-TAPERED thred cable releases. In the old days these types of cable release were common and their draft was quite shallow.

Any thoughts on my B & T situation?

TIA

sumo
28-Jun-2012, 04:52
Does it work without the cable release?
The "getting tighter" thing is quite normal for some shutters. What shutter is it?

Pfiltz
28-Jun-2012, 05:04
Does it work without the cable release?
The "getting tighter" thing is quite normal for some shutters. What shutter is it?

Not too sure how to make T and B work without a cable release, but it does work in all other shutter speeds without the cable.

The lens has these markings on the inside ring Kodak Ektar ER4977 f:4.7 127mm

George E. Sheils
28-Jun-2012, 05:06
Mmmmm....a CLA is probably required.

Clean, Lube and Adjust by a qualified technician.

rdenney
28-Jun-2012, 05:13
Mmmmm....a CLA is probably required.

Clean, Lube and Adjust by a qualified technician.

Agreed. This is nearly always a problem of the shutter sticking while open. None of my lenses with Graphex shutters (or any other shutters, for that matter) will stick in B because the cable release extends too far. Every shutter I've ever seen on the inside has a mechanical stop beyond which the cable release can't extend in any case.

Note that the B, T, slows speeds, and fast speeds often use different means to control the timing of shutter operation, so the fact that it does not stick on 1 second doesn't mean it can't be sticking on B.

Don't change the shutter speed while the shutter is open. This can do more harm than good.

Rick "ask me how I know" Denney

Pfiltz
28-Jun-2012, 05:16
Appreciate it folks... Will probably not need those T n B settings, but I was more confused as to why it wasn't working. I'm probably going to get a stronger lens anyway in the future, if some of my test shots come out decent. I've only shot 2 pieces of film so far with it ;) And that was last night... ;)

When I do get a stronger lens, I'll make sure those options work, because I would like to possibly shoot some water falls in the fall.

Jim Jones
28-Jun-2012, 05:20
The between-the-lens shutters most common on Speed Graphics increase main spring tension when going from 1/200 to 1/400, so an increase in resistance when changing speeds is inevitable. Most lenses on post-WWII Speed Graphics use the tapered cable release socket, including your 1945 vintage lens. Earlier American cameras and shutters often used a relase with straight 5-44 threads.

sumo
28-Jun-2012, 05:21
Different shutters have different ways of operating them. For example a "press" shutter is one where you don't need to cock it as a separate step. Some older ones don't need to be cocked when using the T and B settings and can actually damage them if you cock them. Usually though you cock the lens with the speed set (either B or T) and press the shutter release lever. For B, it will stay open as long as you keep it pressed and close when you let go. On T it will open when you press-and-release and close on a second activation of the release lever. For a press type shutter, the operation should be the same except you don't need to cock.
An Ektar is a relatively old lens but not super old. Your lens is from 1945. What does the body of the shutter say? That would help in getting some more specific operation instructions.
B and T might not seem very important now but if you are shooting waterfalls you will definitely want either one of them for long exposures or you will be snapping a load of 1 sec exposures. In large format you usually stop down a bit more to get more DOF and shutter speeds end up being longer than on MF. 1 sec and longer exposures are not uncommon in LF, although it depends on what kind of photography you want to do.

Pfiltz
28-Jun-2012, 05:25
Unfortunately, the sticker for the model has been gone a long time. There is no Model Number Plate attached to the camera that I can find. Later today, when I get to the shop, I'll take a closeup of the front of the camera i.e. Lens, and will post a link so you good folks can see what I have.

I did list some info from the lens that I found, up above.

Here is all the info that I can find on the lens.

Kodak Ektar ER4977 f:4.7 127mm
Made by Wollensak Rochester, USA for the Folmer Graphlex Corp.
Shutter speeds 400 through T
The lens board has a plate on it, stamped "Speed Graphic"


BTW, if I chose to get this thing cleaned and lub'd, where would you suggest I send it? Is it an expensive process as well? I'm kind of a nervous wreck when working with the lens. I've never had to mess with this stuff before. My RB67 was my first film camera, and I've only had it for 6 months. Now I have this guy....

All very new to me.

sumo
28-Jun-2012, 05:49
Its not a particularly rare lens or valuable etc so its easily replaceable. LF lenses are quite different to other modern smaller format lenses but they are quite simple in operation. As long as you don't force anything you can't really do much damage.

E. von Hoegh
28-Jun-2012, 06:34
Always select the shutter speed you will use before cocking the shutter. At 1/400 sec., an auxiliary spring comes into play, which is tensioned (in some shutters) by moving the speed selector to 1/400 (or 1/500).

Your shutter likely needs to be Cleaned, Lubricated, and Adjusted - what is meant by "CLA".

E. von Hoegh
28-Jun-2012, 06:35
Its not a particularly rare lens or valuable etc so its easily replaceable. LF lenses are quite different to other modern smaller format lenses but they are quite simple in operation. As long as you don't force anything you can't really do much damage.

Except that by using a shutter that is dirty and not properly lubricated, you will cause unneccessary wear and perhaps damage.

Jody_S
28-Jun-2012, 06:42
You will find that 'T' and/or 'B' are your most valuable shutter settings, it is almost impossible to do large format photography without one or the other (the shutter needs to be open for you to focus and compose your image). Some shutters are designed to not close, from T, without re-cocking or changing shutter speeds, but probably not the one you have. Still, if there's an easy way to get it closed, such as rotating the dial to the next speed, I wouldn't worry too much about it yet and just go take some photos. Yes it could benefit from a 'CLA', but the problem might just go away with a little usage. Sitting idle for years and years isn't that good for a large format shutter. Or any shutter.

Pfiltz
28-Jun-2012, 06:42
Where do I send one in for CLA...?

I only spent 160.00 for the whole rig. 3 film holders, the camera, and manual.

I'm not sure I want to sink a lot of coins in this, wide angle lens, rather than invest in a stronger lens. If that makes sense.

I really want to see what my first 2 images look like before spending money on the rig, as well ;)

Dan Fromm
28-Jun-2012, 08:07
I have a 127/4.7 Ektar, s/n ER7138, in Graphex in front of me. It was made in 1945, like the OP's lens, and it is in the same shutter. My shutter, like his, is gummy and needs a CLA. Fine, wonderful. Its cable release socket takes a standard tapered cable end. Fine, wonderful.

It has a shutter release lever too. And it has a little silver tab sticking out of its side between the flash terminal (bi-post, with "(X)" on the face plate) and the cocking lever. This little silver tab is for press focus. Cock the shutter, press the tab down (towards the flash terminal) and the shutter will open. Press the shutter release and the shutter will close and the tab will spring back to its rest position. One doesn't have to use T or B to hold the shutter open for focusing. The press focus tab (button on, e.g., Supermatic shutters, Copals have a lever) eliminates the barbaric practice of using T or B (with a locking cable release. Disgusting!) to focus. Modern shutters have press focus.

About wide angles. Comparing the formats' diagonals, 127 mm is to 4x5 as 66 mm is to nominal 6x6. Not particularly wide. The 127/4.7 Ektar is, if the glass is in good order, a fine lens. Graphex (rebadged Rapax) are good shutters. IMO the OP should spring for a CLA and learn how to use what he has before chasing after other lenses.

rdenney
28-Jun-2012, 08:16
Where do I send one in for CLA...?

I only spent 160.00 for the whole rig. 3 film holders, the camera, and manual.

I'm not sure I want to sink a lot of coins in this, wide angle lens, rather than invest in a stronger lens. If that makes sense.

I really want to see what my first 2 images look like before spending money on the rig, as well ;)

Fair enough. The typical 127mm or 135mm Ektars found on Graphics are probably nearly as cheap to buy as to repair (which might cost $50 or more). They are probably cheap enough to apply the blunt-instrument repair method: Remove all the glass (unscrew the glass groups from the shutter), soak it in lighter fluid (actuating the shutter while wet with lighter fluid to flush out the moving parts to the extent possible), let it dry completely (several days), and put the glass back in. It might free things up; it might not. It will remove useful lubrication (if there is any left, which there probably isn't), so it's not a long-term fix, but for occasional use it might last long enough.

But what do you mean by "stronger" lens? Longer focal length? While it's possible to put a longer lens on a Graphic, it might be more trouble that its worth. If you like what you get from 4x5 but want more flexibility, sell the Graphic and spend the proceeds on something like an old Calumet monorail view camera, which typically sell without lens for perhaps a hundred bucks. It's heavier and less portable but it will be much more flexible and you won't have to worry that changing the lens requires recalibrating the rangefinder (because it won't have a rangefinder). Then, find an old Schneider Symmar of the focal length you prefer. It will come in a good Compur shutter that will be worth a $50 CLA by someone qualified.

So, between Dan and myself, you have two directions to consider. Both have been tested by experience.

Rick "thinking a Speed Graphic press camera doesn't offer much that's different from an RB67 (and therefore worth the trouble) compared to a monorail view camera" Denney

John Kasaian
28-Jun-2012, 08:38
Carol Miller at Flutot's is the place to send your lens for a CLA, but she may still be swamped with back logged lenses so check with her---you may have to wait a while. IMHO, the 127 Ektar is a sweet lens on a Speeder!

If you'll have to wait on a CLA, and your budget allows, I suggest looking for a 203mm Ektar or Wollensak if not too expensive (say $100-ish) to use in the meanwhile. 210mms from the big manufacturers are also available pretty cheap (less than $200) from Keh and elsewhere. Any of these should serve you well should you upgrade to a camera with more movements in the future.

Pfiltz
28-Jun-2012, 12:18
Thanks folks... for all the insight and suggestions. Much Appreciated.

I tried what you mentioned, and I think I have a grasp of it now.

http://www.keepsakephotography.us/Shutter.jpg

BrianShaw
28-Jun-2012, 12:26
I know Carol Miller is the sweetheart of the forums for shutter overhauls (and is darn good at them too) but she is far from the only repair source available. Seek out your alternatives and select a repairperson who cna do the job in a timely manner for you. A properly serviced shutter will serve you for quite a long time but a unknown shutter (even though it may operate better than your current one) will serve you for un unknown period of time. I always prefer KNOWN versus UNKNOWN with regard to camera functionality.

Just food for thought and not intended to be critical of anyone elses previously stated opinion.

BrianShaw
28-Jun-2012, 12:26
p.s. I hope that hole at the 7 o-clock position on your lensboard does not go all the way through.

rdenney
28-Jun-2012, 12:41
That's an anniversary model (or earlier--my lore doesn't go back that far and I can't remember when Graphic boards changed from a 4x4 plate-style board like this one to the thin shell style used on later Pacemakers), and as Dan says the lens dates from 1945.

I would want to check to make sure the solenoid isn't preventing the necessary movement of the shutter release by being too tight or something. If you are not going to use a flash, you could simply remove this solenoid and the linkage to the shutter, and then tape over the holes. (Also, tape over that hole on the board at lower left in the picture--that will leak light.)

The button at the top is the press-focus button. When the shutter is cocked, that button should open the shutter.

Also, the flash synchronizer is currently engaged. If you are not going to use a flash, slide that around to "off".

Rick "who'd try these things before coming to further conclusions" Denney

Pfiltz
28-Jun-2012, 12:44
p.s. I hope that hole at the 7 o-clock position on your lensboard does not go all the way through.

It doesn't. I didn't know until now, but I actually removed the whole front end, which I thought I would never do.. ;)

Pfiltz
29-Jun-2012, 05:29
I have 1 more question if you don't mind.

Let's say for giggles, I get back some decent images from my test shots, and now I decide to move up, and get a stronger lens. Focal length wise that is. How do I determine what lens's I see on FleaBay will work with my camera? Are the lens's specific to the lens board I have? If so, what do I have? Sorry for the stupid question, but the lens and lens board of this stuff really confuses me.

Dan Fromm
29-Jun-2012, 05:44
Well, your first step is to stop being so clueless. Read this site's FAQs. Buy a book on LF. Or two books. Steve Simmons' Using the View Camera and Leslie Strobel's View Camera Technique are both recommended often. And since you have a Graphic, go to www.graflex.org and read their FAQs too.

Pfiltz
29-Jun-2012, 05:46
Thanks Dan... Love it.

E. von Hoegh
29-Jun-2012, 06:59
Thanks Dan... Love it.

Well, Dan's right. All your questions above can be answered by a perusal of the homepage here.

Pfiltz
29-Jun-2012, 07:14
Well, Dan's right. All your questions above can be answered by a perusal of the homepage here.

Agreed

I'm reading this now.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses-long.html

Dan Fromm
29-Jun-2012, 07:39
Agreed

I'm reading this now.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses-long.html

Good start. If self-help, including reading Simmons or Strobel with your Graphic in front of you, fails, you may need tutoring. In that case, ask if there's a member located near you who'd be willing to have you visit and be shown things.

In my experience, bulletin boards are fine for delivering zingers but aren't so good for delivering masses of information. Books are much better, one-on-one tutoring is sometimes very effective.

Good luck, have fun,

Dan

Pfiltz
29-Jun-2012, 07:44
Thank you Dan. I've never been fond of reading. Not sure why. I'm more of a hands on person per se. Everything I know has been self taught. I understand lighting, composition, etc... but this is my 2nd film camera, and my first is my RB67 which I bought 5 months ago.

I do think there are some folks in Nashville, I may try to hook up with sometime down the road. I really wanted a field camera, but opted for this one, to cut my teeth on.

I just printed this out, and intend on reading it later today. I'm trying to get a crash course on this 4x5 world, so I can take advantage of a trip to Seattle in Sept...

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/portrait-lenses/

Regards,

Jim Jones
29-Jun-2012, 11:47
Even people who prefer not to use books as references can put Graphic Graflex Photography by Willard Morgan and Henry Lester to good use. It does have lots of illustrations and a few articles by prominent photographers of that era. Editions through the 7th cover the Anniversary model and other contemporary Graphic and Graflex cameras. Later editions also include the Pacemaker series.