Film holders for 8x10, advice please.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

I have a B&J Grover 8x10, without film holders, back, or working lens/shutter. I've been looking and there is a lot of different types of 8x10 film holders on e-bay.
What are the differences? Which are the ones I need? What/why should I avoid?
Anyone have a GG/back for the camera?

[Ken Lee]

As long as they don't leak, and the slides are not too sticky, they should be pretty much the same with regards to image quality. Some really old ones may have missing spots of black paint inside - avoid those or paint them black again.

Old ones will also tend to have worn tape at the ends, which can be replaced with black "gaffer's tape", a kind of opaque black duct-tape material.

One way to restore smooth movement of dark slides, is with a bit of wax. My 1930's wooden holders work like new after a bit of butcher's wax.

Wooden holders can be lighter than the plastic ones, and their slides made of metal rather than plastic (because the older ones were made before the invention of plastic). Like wooden cameras, they have a nice feeling about them that the plastic ones just don't have. :cool:

Try to make sure they still have the little locking pins at the end, which prevents you from pulling out the slide accidentally.

[SMBooth]

If the wooden one are in good shape then I rather have them, the metal light trap along the front doesn't bow like some plastic models.

[cyrus]

They should all fit. Up to 8x10, they're all supposed to be standard. There are some much older holders out there that are not standard but you'll have a hard time finding them. The difference between wood and plastic is a personal preference. I like the wooden ones because they don't generate static electricity and thus don't attract dust. Looks better on an old camera like yours too.

[E. von Hoegh]

If the wooden one are in good shape then I rather have them, the metal light trap along the front doesn't bow like some plastic models.

Not only does the trap not bow, but it can be disassembled to renew the velvet if neccessary and also to remove the dust which accumulates there. I have a set of 8 old Folmer/Kodak holders, they're all I've used since moving to 8x10.

[TheDeardorffGuy]

I like wood over plastic anyday. Mine all have the metal top caps. I use lemon pledge on the darkslides but not before I blow out the slot where the Dark Slide fits. And not with a "dust off" type sprayer. 150PSI of filtered air used in my machine shop. You may have to go to a service station and ask the mechanic. The air compressor I have was the best purchace I ever made. My oldest holder is from 1938.

[John Kasaian]

The black wood ones saying "Graflex made for Eastman Kodak" are fine, so are the wood Agfa/ Anscos but I like the Kodaks better because of the plate on the light trap. I also like Liscos for plastic versions. Basically if a film holder works--it works and if it doesn't, it goes in the cannibal box for rebuilding or parts. I like the idea of getting a stack of used holders from a reputable dealer such as Jim at Midwest who will swap out any "leakers" they might have indvertantly sent you---in the long run thats usually going to be a better deal than ebay.
Hinges can be retaped, dark slides can be lubed with wax or replaced, locking ells can be replaced, even black plastic can be repaired with epoxy. There are lots of things you can do to put a sad film holder back in action (with my twisted brain, I actually enjoy the challenge of resurrecting Frankenstein film holders) but it is simpler just to send it back for a replacement. A small shop vac dedicated to your photo gear is a valuable accessory for keeping you holders dust free as are zip-lock plastic storage bags (IIRC the 1.5 or 2 gallon size---it's been awhile since I bought any---Walmart usually has them) will fit 8x10 holders, the more common 1 gallon size are too small.

[jose angel]

I have a Graflex wooden one in one hand, a current plastic Lisco in the other.
As far as they are in good shape, I`d say it doesn`t matter. I wonder if the wooden one is lighter. It is a bit thicker. The finishing quality looks the same. The metal top is slightly bow in one side, (the plastic one on both sides -not affecting performance-). Mine has the inner paint scratched, so I`m keeping it for spares.
If the holder is in good shape, I`d not care if wood or plastic. It`s true that good wooden ones are "special".

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Thanks everyone for your input. I'll keep my eyes open, esp for wood ones.
I do not think I'd need all that many. How many is enough? Still need a back for that 8x10 B&J Grover.

[John Kasaian]

The black wood ones saying "Graflex made for Eastman Kodak" are fine, so are the wood Agfa/ Anscos but I like the Kodaks better because of the plate on the light trap. I also like Liscos for plastic versions. Basically if a film holder works--it works and if it doesn't, it goes in the cannibal box for rebuilding or parts. I like the idea of getting a stack of used holders from a reputable dealer such as Jim at Midwest who will swap out any "leakers" they might have indvertantly sent you---in the long run thats usually going to be a better deal than ebay.
Hinges can be retaped, dark slides can be lubed with wax or replaced, locking ells can be replaced, even black plastic can be repaired with epoxy. There are lots of things you can do to put a sad film holder back in action (with my twisted brain, I actually enjoy the challenge of resurrecting Frankenstein film holders) but it is simpler just to send it back for a replacement. A small shop vac dedicated to your photo gear is a valuable accessory for keeping you holders dust free as are zip-lock plastic storage bags (IIRC the 1.5 or 2 gallon size---it's been awhile since I bought any---Walmart usually has them) will fit 8x10 holders, the more common 1 gallon size are too small.
I just took a peek and the size ziplocks that'll fit 8x10 holders are 2.5 gallon, Hefty brand.

[jose angel]

How many is enough? I think I have more than 20? holders, but never go with less than two (4 shots), and usually not more than say, 6-8 holders (12-16 shots).

[MIke Sherck]

I typically carry four film holders with me when I'm away from the car. There are likely another 6-8 in a bag in the car. I use padded cooler bags which my local Menard's hardware store was selling at a very good price some years ago at the end of the summer season; each one has a shoulder strap and carries four holders easily, six if you care to stuff them in. I fit two holders to a 2 1/2-gallon zip lock plastic baggie I buy at my local Spartan store.

On those rare occasions where I know I'm heading to a subject-rich environment, I've been known to carry a dozen holders in a soft-sided cooler bag slung over the shoulder opposite the one carrying the camera (I have an 8x10 B&J Grover monorail.) There's room for a couple of lenses (all I have,) plus the accessories. It's a lot of weight for a guy with a bum knee so I don't do it a lot, or if there's a lot of climbing, but with a dozen holders I've never run out of film in a single session. Frankly, I could likely get along with six to eight, so I'll say that half a dozen film holders is a good number. Your mileage may vary. :)

Mike

[John Kasaian]

It is rare that I'll go anywhere with less than three holders, but five holders will fit in a zip lock bag so I'll most often take along a bag or two (5-10 holders/10-20 shots) and it is usually more than enough film for the day.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Thanks, I think that a ziplock bag for all film holders, is a great idea.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

My 8x10 B&J Grover, still needs a back and film holders, I have not found a back yet. I imagine/hope to find one, for parts, with ratty bellows on e-bay that will come with them...cheap! Any other ideas?

[Peter Spangenberg]

I've had good luck with the seal top (ziplock) pink anti static bags from staticbags.com. I use one bag for each holder. They are 4 mil and wear pretty well. On the website, the link is at the bottom of the left side panel of offerings. This site also sells small quantities-many others require a purchase of1000.

[Rod Klukas]

Comments concerning holders.
There is a slight difference in holders. In my large format class we did some testing a few years ago as a student was having intermittant focus issues, and while Fidelity/Lisco were good and some of the older brands such as Graflex/Kodak were OK, by far the best, in 8x10, were the Toyo and the ones from AWB(filmholders.com). Next the Fidelity.
It was amazing the variation in the placement of the septums. Often one side too close and the other too far from perfect for sharpest focus.
4x5 were even worse, but again the Toyo's were the most consistent and closest to perfect we could find. The Linhofs with the springloaded pressure plate were also excellent. We used a mill table and a precision caliper to measure the depth to the septum for the tests.
By the way, the Kodak Readyload and Fuji Quickload with their spring loaded pressure plates were also excellent in their final incarnations, when the film was available in that form. The Rightway with the numbers and the large plastic handles were the worst in 4x5.

[TheDeardorffGuy]

Merle Deardorff had a collection of holders. He showed me the various differences in "Standard" as in the national bureau of standards and what others made. This was in the early 80s. I was lucky enough to buy around 50 Kodak holders. But these did not match the Ground glass frame on my Deardorff. I had to add thickness by about .020 thou to the frames pads and now everything is uniform. Deardorff did this as a service to customers in the 30s to the 60s. As I recall they used plastic Fidelity holders as a "standard" because they became very popular in the 60s.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Thanks Rod, I'll keep that in mind while I am looking, probably mostly on e-bay. Appreciate the info.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

2 hundredths of an inch??? How did you figure that out? It must have been a common problem. I would 'assume' that 0.02 in would be taken care of by DOF. Well, live and learn.
I know I would not have the ability to figure that out. ???trial and error???
Bill

[TheDeardorffGuy]

2 hundredths of an inch??? How did you figure that out? It must have been a common problem. I would 'assume' that 0.02 in would be taken care of by DOF. Well, live and learn.
I know I would not have the ability to figure that out. ???trial and error???
Bill

Using a Starrett 449 depth micrometer on both the holder with a sheet of film and the groundglass frame with out the glass.
This is not a matter of using the DOF do cover the focusing error but just being as precise as I can. It really is surprising where the film lies vs the ground glass ground surface on all old holders. Why not fix it? I've been using these holders for decades and have complete confidence in my matchs. This is also very important when fitting a two part Frensel system. Think about that one.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

I agree with fixing it, esp if it is an easy fix. My question is what caused you to look for it in the first place? Focusing issues? Or is this a common problem you were aware of and just wanted to check?
Bill

[TheDeardorffGuy]

I agree with fixing it, esp if it is an easy fix. My question is what caused you to look for it in the first place? Focusing issues? Or is this a common problem you were aware of and just wanted to check?
Bill

I had seen some ground glass frames that were "thick" The glass sat at a different place than others. I asked Merle why. The metal Sterling holders were popular in some studios in the 50s. Sterling made their holders to their standards it seems. So Deardorff made GG frames that matched the dimensions. There were lots of them made like this. So I figured out how much to mill off and match NBS holder dimension.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

I have to ask... Do you want the film plane to match the leading or back plane of the GG? My guess would be the back plane, but I have to ask...

[MIke Sherck]

I have to ask... Do you want the film plane to match the leading or back plane of the GG? My guess would be the back plane, but I have to ask...

The image is formed on the ground glass's leading face (the surface facing the lens.)

Mike

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Again, I was wrong, but I am glad I asked.
Thanks Mike