Extreme Movements

[Anonymousish]

I was wondering if there was any type of camera set-up for extreme movements? Anything specifically that you think would work well? Is this a terribly expensive wish?

[jb7]

Arca, Sinar, Cambo- but they're only the ones I've actually used...
There are a range of price points there-

[Anonymousish]

Pretty much any monorail camera?

[jb7]

Maybe not a Bender... paradoxically...

[Leigh]

Extreme is an ambiguous term. What exactly are you trying to do?

The lens and bellows are every bit as important as the mechanical configuration of the front standard.

- Leigh

[Anonymousish]

I'm not quite sure yet. I've never got the chance to play with movements, but I was thinking of a camera that fully utilized camera movements to make pictures that are intensely...modified? I'm not sure how to say it.

[Leigh]

OK.

For experimentation I would suggest any basic 4x5 monorail (typically $100-$200),
and an inexpensive wide-angle lens with a large image circle.

Generally speaking, a "normal" lens for 4x5 is around 135mm; shorter lenses give a wider field of view.

With any lens, the diameter of the image circle (IC) determines how much movement you can use.
This value is published for all modern lenses, and can generally be found for older lenses if you look hard enough.

For example, the diagonal of a 4x5 piece of film is about 160mm. Your IC must be at least that large to cover the format.
The larger the IC beyond that, the farther you can move the lens without vignetting.

To give real numbers...
Most 90mm lenses have ICs around 236mm.
The Nikkor 120/8 SW has a huge IC of 312mm. It's very popular for architecture and similar use.

I suggest starting out with inexpensive equipment and experimenting to find a combination that best suits your vision.

- Leigh

[Jim Jones]

When sharpness isn't important, pinhole cameras can be extreme.

[Anonymousish]

Pinholes you say? Excellent. Fantastic. Thank you very much Leigh and Jim.

[jose angel]

I'm not quite sure yet. I've never got the chance to play with movements, but I was thinking of a camera that fully utilized camera movements to make pictures that are intensely...modified? I'm not sure how to say it.

Most of the times extreme movements are not that needed, my cameras have way more movement capacity that I ever need. Well, some press cameras use to have very limited movements (they are mostly designed for "press photography"), but monorails and field cameras use to be well served.
You can create e.g. extremely angled sharp images with very little tilting... almost all cameras can do this.

As Leigh says, the limiting factor use to be on the lenses; the shorter the lens, the more limited (smaller image circle). Here use to happen that the larger image circle, the more expensive the lens is.
E.g.: You need a very large image circle to center a very big building from a very close distance with a very wide angle lens. If all that parameters must been kept, things could be a bit harder here... for other than a very expensive lens and a monorail... (otherwise, it probably results in a silly shot; mine does). In real life, I`d say things are not that bad, nor such expensive lenses are needed (I once had one of this lenses, and traded it promptly for a smaller, "normal" one).

I think he´s giving you very good advice. Start working with single gear; it`s the best way to know your needs.

[Bob Salomon]

Linhof Kardan M 45 has 360° front and rear swing, 70° front and rear tilt, 3+" front and rear shift, 3.3" of front and rear rise, that accepts accessory rise posts that are an additional 3.3" each.

The GTL from Linhof has more possible movement without the need for additional rise extensions.

[Brian Ellis]

Movements are used for only three purposes - to alter the plane of focus (tilt and swing), to alter or maintain the shape of an object (tilt and swing), or to alter the portion of the subject that's included in the image (shift - up, down, left or right). In its most common usage shift doesn't modify the image, it just changes the portion of the subject that's included in the image so it can generally be ignored for purposes of using movements to "intensely modify" anything .

Therefore, the only things that would make the movements on one camera "extreme" as compared with another camera would be one camera having tilt or swing in a place where the other doesn't (i.e. front, back, or both) and how many degrees of tilt or swing one camera has as compared with another.

[Drew Bedo]

I would think that about any rail camera would be capable of more movement than anyone would actually need . . . am I wrong in thinking this?

[E. von Hoegh]

I was wondering if there was any type of camera set-up for extreme movements? Anything specifically that you think would work well? Is this a terribly expensive wish?

Any decent monorail - (the Cambo comes to mind, for under $200), will have more movements than you'll ever need or use. To use "extreme" movements, you need a lens with a large image circle. This can cost $$.

I do a fair amount of table-top and occasionally some architectural, and have never utilised all the movements available on either my Deardorff V8 or Linhof STIV.

Why do you need "extreme" movements?

[TimmyMac]

lensbaby :o

[E. von Hoegh]

lensbaby :o

Philistine.

[Ed Richards]

The easy way to run out of movements is with a longer lens, rather than a wider one. A 360 or 400 non-telephoto lens has a huge image circle, and needs large movements to have the effect as more moderate movements with a shorter lens.

[Mark Sawyer]

If you're considering "extreme" movements, I'd consider an over-sized bag bellows so you don't over-stress your standard bellows, but of course, watch out for it blocking the light path, (hence, over-sized so you can pull it out of the way).

An anamorphic lens might also give you something to work with, especially coupled with "extreme" movements.

(On a personal note, I haven't liked the term "extreme movements" since I unwittingly ate some contaminated chicken at a barbecue a few years back...)

[Heroique]

Movements are used for only three purposes - to alter the plane of focus (tilt and swing), to alter or maintain the shape of an object (tilt and swing), or to alter the portion of the subject that's included in the image (shift - up, down, left or right)...

“What if your purpose is to alter perspective?” is the reckless question of the day, and if we’re lucky, no one will ask it, sparing us the 45-50 replies that would quickly follow in an increasing storm of fury and bewilderment.

[Old-N-Feeble]

There is no "extreme"... only "necessary" and "creative". Extreme might be 360 degrees of non-distorted lens coverage which does not exist other than in "Nero's world".

[evan clarke]

My Arca with my 150 super symmar xl..humongous movements

[E. von Hoegh]

There is no "extreme"... only "necessary" and "creative". Extreme might be 360 degrees of non-distorted lens coverage which does not exist other than in "Nero's world".

It's "extreme" everything, now. Extreme sports, extreme this, extreme that, and seemingly pervasive of the media/entertainment industries, extreme stupidity. Things that aren't "extreme" are "awesome", "badass" and so on.

[Old-N-Feeble]

I think we all just want the best/most we can afford to buy. Sometimes we just need to learn the limitations of what's available... and what's affordable. :)