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View Full Version : Going back to 8x10...maybe



Ari
18-Jun-2012, 11:22
Hi,
I'd put this in the WTB section, but I'll be away for 3 months, so no buying until August/September.

With the sale of my MF equipment finalized, I can now turn my attention to getting an 8x10 set-up.
I previously had a Toyo 810G, which was a wonderful, full-featured beast, but very heavy, and most of all, quite bulky.
I tried using it for architecture, and had a number of WA lenses for it, but it was too cumbersome, and had to be disassembled a packed after each use.

I'd like to get back into 8x10, but just for portraits.
I'm looking for a metal folding camera, no monorails this time.
Weight, if it's under 10kg, is not too much of a concern.
I have a small budget for camera, lens and film holders; I'll stick to X-ray film for the time being.

After a decent amount of research, I think the Calumet C-1 would suit my needs.
Sturdy, rigid, and not too dear, around $350-$500, going by recent sales here.

Is there an alternative? Can you sing the praises of the C-1? Point out its weak spots?
I'm hoping to be able to afford a 360mm lens, or, if cash is really tight, the Fuji 250 f6.7; will the camera easily support a lens as heavy as a 360? Will it support any decent-sized brass lenses?

Thanks in advance for any help/guidance/suggestions/advice.

Ari
18-Jun-2012, 11:54
I just wanted to add, if anyone does have something for sale, perhaps in the near future, by all means let me know.
Thanks

DrTang
18-Jun-2012, 13:02
the C-1 will easily support that lens and way bigger..it has metal lensboards

the camera is big and heavy and clunky...but solid and since you probably won't be bending it into a pretzel for portraits...easy to deal with.

a 240 might be too short for portraits though

jp
18-Jun-2012, 13:21
For a more compact metal 8x10, you might also keep an eye open for an Eastman Commercial View camera. Burke and James rembrandt and view cameras and Kodak 2d will also work, but aren't metal. You'll probably want a 360 or longer mm lens for portrait stuff; too many choices for lenses.

Len Middleton
18-Jun-2012, 13:24
Ari,

Having own one I can confirm they are certainly is robust. The one limitation you may run into with big brass lenses is the lensboard is 6x6".

As Deardorff uses the same lensboard, in putting a 600mm f9 Apo-Ronar on a 6x6 lensboard, it required undercutting the flange so that it would slip under the Deardorff sliding lock. That would likely be a similar problem for the C1.

It would otherwise seem to fit your requirements.

Good luck,

Len

Ari
18-Jun-2012, 13:28
For a more compact metal 8x10, you might also keep an eye open for an Eastman Commercial View camera. Burke and James rembrandt and view cameras and Kodak 2d will also work, but aren't metal. You'll probably want a 360 or longer mm lens for portrait stuff; too many choices for lenses.

From what I can tell, the KMV offers lighter weight and a few more movements, for at least twice the price.
I'd consider one if it wasn't too expensive.


Ari,

Having own one I can confirm they are certainly is robust. The one limitation you may run into with big brass lenses is the lensboard is 6x6".

As Deardorff uses the same lensboard, in putting a 600mm f9 Apo-Ronar on a 6x6 lensboard, it required undercutting the flange so that it would slip under the Deardorff sliding lock. That would likely be a similar problem for the C1.

It would otherwise seem to fit your requirements.

Good luck,

Len

Thanks, Len.
A brassie isn't really important right now, I just thought I might explore that one day.

Alan Gales
18-Jun-2012, 15:55
Yousuf Karsh used a C-1 and he did pretty good with it. :)

cdholden
18-Jun-2012, 15:58
Yousuf Karsh used a C-1 and he did pretty good with it. :)

No. He did good with the lens and lighting.
The camera could have been a cardboard box, with similar results.

Alan Gales
18-Jun-2012, 16:24
No. He did good with the lens and lighting.
The camera could have been a cardboard box, with similar results.

You got that right! ;)

Daniel Stone
18-Jun-2012, 17:55
Watch out for a KMV, they pop up from time to time, I'm now on my 3rd(and final) one. Lets just forget about the prior two, long story ;).

If you want a clamshell METAL folding camera, get a KMV. Prices fluctuate up and down, IMO its not a "buyers" or "sellers" market, its what someone's willing to pay for it.

The one I'm awaiting in the post for is a BEATER-condition one. I paid more than I should have for it, but I'm not planning to re-sell it anytime soon. Now I won't have to feel bad(much less notice :D) any bumps, rub marks, scratches, etc. on it!

Too many people baby their equipment IMO, THEY'RE CAMERAS! They're meant to be USED! Not abused, but USED!

My last KMV should outlast me, it'll need a new bellows soon, but its a tank, and it'll take some more bumps, I'm damn sure of that :p!

-Dan

Ari
18-Jun-2012, 18:04
Daniel,
I saw that you also recently sold your C-1; would you care to explain the advantage of the KMV over the C-1?
From what I've read, the C-1 is built like a tank as well, but what made you want the KMV that much more?
Thanks

Daniel Stone
18-Jun-2012, 18:54
Well I sold the C-1 because

1. It was too heavy. I wanted to be able to walk with the camera on a tripod(soon to be a CF studex, much lighter to tote around than my aluminum 5-series ;))
2. Too heavy. An increasing # of people seem to like using the baby-joggers, those are a great idea, and work well, but I want to be able to not have to buy something else.
3. To bulky. I have limited storage space, and the only case I could find to house the C-1 was huge. Only adding to the bulk

so weight was the main concern for ME. The C-1 also has lots of sharp corners, that if you don't watch it carefully, can bung up you feet, ankles, shins, etc... real quick if you leave it on the floor in a house where someone walks. I'm speaking from experience here.

Now, if I was a studio photographer who had an 8x10 glued to a studio stand(Foba, Cambo, Linhof, etc...), then the C-1 would be, IMO, the best thing short of a P2 8x10 setup. Fully geared movements don't mean anything if your arms can't reach the standards :)

But I like working in the field, and I'm increasing the # of hiking days in my book. Normally for LF I work close to/out of the car, but I want to be able to walk farther, and still be able to get to a shot(or simply just walk farther) without getting as winded.

So for ME, the "rigidity" issues with longer lenses(which it sounds like you prefer shorter lenses) can be mitigated by packing a Bogen magic arm. That's what I plan to do, just clamp it to the front tripod leg, so it can support the front extensions when using my 24" or 30" lenses with it.

-Dan

Ari
18-Jun-2012, 19:14
Thanks, Dan; nice rundown of the weight issues.
But is weight the only factor? Does the KMV have any other advantages other than being lighter?

Looks like the trick is finding one at an affordable (to me) price.
When the time comes to buy, I hope there'll at least be a few choices.

In the meantime, I'd really appreciate anyone else's thoughts.

Alan Gales
18-Jun-2012, 19:38
Kodak 2D's are pretty popular for an inexpensive 8x10. Just make sure that you get one with the sliding tripod block.

Ari
18-Jun-2012, 19:54
Thanks, Alan, but I'm looking into metal cameras; otherwise I'd say "Wood is good!".

Alan Gales
18-Jun-2012, 19:58
I understand. I bought a used Wehman. It cost me $1,500.00 for it and some extras. Not exactly cheap.

Ari
21-Jun-2012, 22:06
So, I'm flip-flopping.
I suspect that the KMV might be the better option of the two, the other being a C-1.
Lighter, good movements, rigid, and folds up neatly.
Does anyone envision selling theirs in the next 2-3 months? Can we talk?
Thanks

tgtaylor
21-Jun-2012, 22:50
Toyo 810M/MII, but good luck finding one in the 3 to $500 range.

Thomas

Ari
21-Jun-2012, 23:18
Never considered the 810M because of its price, though it's a beautiful machine.

Frank Petronio
21-Jun-2012, 23:19
What would be the matter with another Toyo G on a short rail for packing and having a longer rail for shooting? Get a case you can drop it in all assembled and go. If you don't want a fancy case, use a freaking milk crate or make it out of plywood. You've said that shoot out of your car trunk most of the time, why not build a bracket to hold the camera?

When you're walking through the slush, don't disassemble the camera, put a plastic bag over it, check the mount, put it over your shoulder, walk....

I've had a C1, you'd have to have an uncanny, perverse love for it to claim it bettered the Toyo G in any way. There are no advantages to them other than price and that all hinges on the bellows, which costs more than the camera to replace. And nearly every C1 advertised either fails to mention the pinholes or tells you that it only has 4 to 32 active ones that haven't been repaired yet.

The KMVs I've played with are nice portrait cameras, they make a lot more sense than Deardorffs or those other lighter and/or wooden cameras. But having monorail movements is awfully nice and the price/value definitely favors them over anything perceived as trendy, light, compact, or beautiful.

I never understood why you'd need a super light 8x10 anyway, since the holders and gear are going to burden you regardless? Putting said light 8x10 on a crappy little #2 tripod so you save two pounds is stupid, all that does is make your 8x10 film have the quality of 4x5 film. Opting for a tiny f/9 lens to save weight isn't that great for a portraitist (dim, bad bokeh). Fighting to keep the camera from moving or not having enough movements or having stuff shift after you focused - well that is just super-stupid. If you're going to shoot 8x10, suck it up, allow for the extra five lbs a decent camera will require and do it right.

Just my opinion, others will confirm that my eyes are brown because I am full of something ;-p

Oh and Daniel... Magic Arm Superclamp on CF... be careful!

Ari
21-Jun-2012, 23:43
Milk and cookies keeping you up? :)
If I had to summarize my feelings on the 810G, I'd say "Fantastic camera, but been there, done that; too heavy."
My 810G in its case with three lenses, rails, without film holders, weighed about 50 lbs (22kg), and it took the better part of 10 minutes to set it up, ready to shoot.
If movements were paramount, I'd buy a monorail in a heartbeat.
Weight is not a concern; I'd like to get 4 film holders and a 360 f6.8 something, and that's it. Just wanna do me 8x10 portraits.
I like the idea of a folder, or at least something more compact than a monorail, so it doesn't need some freakishly large case and a hand cart; I can deal with the weight of the whole set-up.
I have a great tripod, aluminum, rated to 44lbs (20kg).

Len Middleton
22-Jun-2012, 01:45
Ari,

Do not know if it makes any difference to you, but the C-1 is rear focus only.

A 360mm lens should be good on a C-1. If however you decide to go with any wide angle lenses later, the rear rack will be a PITA (actually chest area) when focusing...

Good luck in your efforts,

Len

Ari
22-Jun-2012, 02:08
Thank you, Len; I was already aware of that peculiarity on the C-1.

lab black
22-Jun-2012, 04:19
I have befriended a beautiful KMV for some time now. It is a delightful camera that is smartly designed. One thing to be aware of, is that the original lensboards are difficult to come by although aftermarket copies can be purchased, as can convertable boards so that smaller Technica boards can be mounted to the KMV board which can be a nice solution for many lenses. However, I used to take baby pictures and every parent always felt that their child was the smartest and cutest kid in the world, ... because it was their kid.

Alan Gales
22-Jun-2012, 07:07
It gets worse when they get older. Why can't my kid pitch? Why is my kid last to bat? ;)

BrianShaw
22-Jun-2012, 07:10
It gets worse when they get older. Why can't my kid pitch? Why is my kid last to bat? ;)

OMG, ain't that the truth. We just finished little league season with one of my son's team losing hte playoff. The only kid upset was the kid thrown out at first for the last out. All of the other kids were just happy to be playing baseball and eager to get tot he snacks. The parents are still furious -- over this, or that, or the other thing.

Vascilli
22-Jun-2012, 22:28
For a more compact metal 8x10, you might also keep an eye open for an Eastman Commercial View camera. Burke and James rembrandt and view cameras and Kodak 2d will also work, but aren't metal. You'll probably want a 360 or longer mm lens for portrait stuff; too many choices for lenses.

I have the magnesium version and it's quite a nice camera. Mind you the only front movement is rise/fall. Perhaps not the best for portraits if you'll need more than that.

John Kasaian
22-Jun-2012, 23:03
I had a KMV for a while and I agree that it it is a fine camera, but I found that a beater Deardorff was far more intuitive to use. YMMV, or course!

Ari
23-Jun-2012, 01:12
I have befriended a beautiful KMV for some time now. It is a delightful camera that is smartly designed. One thing to be aware of, is that the original lensboards are difficult to come by although aftermarket copies can be purchased, as can convertable boards so that smaller Technica boards can be mounted to the KMV board which can be a nice solution for many lenses. However, I used to take baby pictures and every parent always felt that their child was the smartest and cutest kid in the world, ... because it was their kid.

Thanks for the info, LB. I've seen KMV lens boards selling for ridiculous prices, in the neighbourhood of $150.


I have the magnesium version and it's quite a nice camera. Mind you the only front movement is rise/fall. Perhaps not the best for portraits if you'll need more than that.

Thanks, Vascilli; are you referring to the C-1 or KMV? I thought the KMV had at least front tilt as well.


I had a KMV for a while and I agree that it it is a fine camera, but I found that a beater Deardorff was far more intuitive to use. YMMV, or course!

Thanks, John; I wouldn't mind a 'Dorff, wood aside, but its cult status will likely put even a functional beater out of my price range.

Tony Karnezis
23-Jun-2012, 02:41
Thanks for the info, LB. I've seen KMV lens boards selling for ridiculous prices, in the neighbourhood of $150.


Ari, Michael Smith and Paula Chamlee have machined new KMV boards and should have them in stock. You can contact them directly.

Another option that I learned from Kerik Kouklis is to make your own boards (or have them machined) out of 1/16" flat aluminum and use a thin strip of velcro for the light trap. You wouldn't think it would work, but it does.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?37892-Kodak-Master-8X10-lens-boards (thread 8)

I considered getting a C1 but didn't like the bulk, the way it folded, and rear rail sticking back. That said, it's hard to go wrong for the price.

I have a Kodak Master and love it. It's compact, not too heavy, can handle surprisingly heavy lenses, has large knobs that are easy to use with gloves, and it is very quick to set up. I found it much faster to use than the C1 right from the start. I don't shoot with it often to be fluid with the camera, but I can go from setting it on the tripod to composing under the dark cloth in less than 30 seconds.

Ari
23-Jun-2012, 03:00
Thanks for the link, Tony; it should come in very handy.
I think I've decided to be patient and wait for a KMV that I can afford, or one that I can barely afford.
Does anyone know if any lenses will fit inside the folded camera? Just curious, it's not a deal-breaker.

tgtaylor
23-Jun-2012, 10:29
...I can go from setting it on the tripod to composing under the dark cloth in less than 30 seconds.

I don't shoot with the 810G everyday (or even every week!) but I've become fluid enough working with the camera that on location I can set up the tripod, install the camera, and be under the dark cloth focusing in under 3 minutes. I keep the 360mm lens installed on the camera in its case so the only thing I have to do when settin-up is to attach the long rail to the short rail, adjust the distance between the standards so that everything is in balance, and flip it onto the the tripod mounting blocks, tighten down, and bring both standards to the zero position. It's pretty quick! If it's the first shot of the day I'll have to remove the lensboard to remove the cap from the rear of the lens and check bot elements for dust, but that's it. Pretty quick IMO.

The only thing that I don't like is transporting the camera in the Session case that the camera came with. It's a great case but at 30 lbs overkill for taking the camera out on a shoot. The camera with lens attached weighs a tad over 20lbs. There must be something out there that will serve my purpose and not weigh so much. If you know, please let me know :)

Below is a photo of the camera set-up to take a shot. The Sessions case and 2-wheeler are visible in the background:

75991

Ari
24-Jun-2012, 05:12
Thomas, I had the same 810G set-up, and while I loved the camera and its limitless movements and accessories, the weight of both camera and the necessary case was difficult to bear.
Near the end, I made excuses not to take the 810 out.
One lighter alternative is a Tenba view camera case; it's soft, but rigid enough to support a large heavy camera, and you can put the 810 in the case mounted upside-down on its rails with the lens attached.

So, as much as I revere the 810G, I won't go back to it; it's overkill for just shooting portraits, and I think it really belongs in the studio.

tgtaylor
24-Jun-2012, 10:37
Are you sure that the camer will fit inside the Tenba case Ari? The manual that came with the camera lists the dimension (in inches) as 31.10L, 18.54H, and 16.81W (790mm, 471mm, and 427mm). Tenba list the interior dimensions as "21.5W x 12H x 15D in." The length listed by Toyo appears to be with the long rail attached. I'm going to measure the camera next time I take it out. If it will work, the Tenba case seems ideal and a weight savings of more than 20 lbs.

Thomas

Frank Petronio
24-Jun-2012, 10:41
I have that case and it is great for serious 4x5 monorails, with 8x10 perhaps you have to swing the standards and kludge it in? I spoke to Lightware about it too and there was no idea solution for my 810 Norma either. Both are expensive cases to experiment with. I think Stebor will make a case but in any event I don't think Ari wants to spend that kind of money.

In thinking about an 8x10 portrait only camera, as much as I dislike woodies, it seems that a classic Kodak 2D or some of the other more solid woodies that fold up like the C1 would be the nicest since you can leave a big lens attached and set up is relative quick. Having rise and fall is nice for portraits too. They are fairly compact and light, so you could move them in something like a flat attaché Lightware case....

I'd also hunt down a nice tripod head with a large mounting platform, something like the old low profile Gitzo or the Ries style 2-way heads - Bilora and others made nice ones for less money, vintage ones are good since they are so simple. Actually if you go wood you might as well get a wood tripod and complete the presentation as your portrait subjects get into all that crap ;-p

My only caution about cheap 8x10s is that they aren't cheap if you have to replace the bellows. I have patched old bellows but that only works to a degree and if you shoot with a 360mm/14" you present a lot of bellows to the light.

Oren Grad
24-Jun-2012, 11:04
I think Stebor will make a case...

Strebor Enterprises has been out of the case-making business for at least five years now. :(

Frank Petronio
24-Jun-2012, 11:18
Strebor Enterprises has been out of the case-making business for at least five years now. :(

That profitable dealing with photographers, eh?

Ari
25-Jun-2012, 01:13
Are you sure that the camer will fit inside the Tenba case Ari? The manual that came with the camera lists the dimension (in inches) as 31.10L, 18.54H, and 16.81W (790mm, 471mm, and 427mm). Tenba list the interior dimensions as "21.5W x 12H x 15D in." The length listed by Toyo appears to be with the long rail attached. I'm going to measure the camera next time I take it out. If it will work, the Tenba case seems ideal and a weight savings of more than 20 lbs.

Thomas

Thomas,
I've never owned that kind of Tenba case; I had a flight case for my 810G that required me to completely disassemble the camera.
There are several models of the view camera case, maybe one can accommodate the 810G.
Getting a good case for this camera is quite important, as it's already heavy and bulky; the right case would make a huge difference.
You can also look for an older Calumet case.

Ari
25-Jun-2012, 01:20
I have that case and it is great for serious 4x5 monorails, with 8x10 perhaps you have to swing the standards and kludge it in? I spoke to Lightware about it too and there was no idea solution for my 810 Norma either. Both are expensive cases to experiment with. I think Stebor will make a case but in any event I don't think Ari wants to spend that kind of money.

In thinking about an 8x10 portrait only camera, as much as I dislike woodies, it seems that a classic Kodak 2D or some of the other more solid woodies that fold up like the C1 would be the nicest since you can leave a big lens attached and set up is relative quick. Having rise and fall is nice for portraits too. They are fairly compact and light, so you could move them in something like a flat attaché Lightware case....

I'd also hunt down a nice tripod head with a large mounting platform, something like the old low profile Gitzo or the Ries style 2-way heads - Bilora and others made nice ones for less money, vintage ones are good since they are so simple. Actually if you go wood you might as well get a wood tripod and complete the presentation as your portrait subjects get into all that crap ;-p

My only caution about cheap 8x10s is that they aren't cheap if you have to replace the bellows. I have patched old bellows but that only works to a degree and if you shoot with a 360mm/14" you present a lot of bellows to the light.

I certaonly don't want to spend big $$$ on a case, that's why I want a folding 8x10; I hope that a small Tenba MF case could take care of everything.
The lure of wood is medium; I know many models will be cheaper than a metal 8x10, but I'd like to get what I want the first time out, and I think I'd always wonder about the metal camera if I didn't buy it.
I have a 229 head, and hope to find the hex mount with the 4x4 inch square plate on top; that worked very well with the 810G.
Thanks for the good advice, FP.

Jim Bradley
25-Jun-2012, 07:04
A lot of people are mixing up the Kodak Commercial View with the Master View KMV. The Commercial View is effectively a metal 2D made with magnesium alloy. They can be found at a much lower cost than the KMV. I donated my fugly version to a forum member last year.
Jim

Ari
25-Jun-2012, 12:32
Thanks for the clarification, Jim.
I'm looking for a KMV, this one: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/kodak/masterview.html

lab black
26-Jun-2012, 05:29
Regarding the question of an appropriate case for the KMV, there is a myriad of variables depending on an individuals specific needs. At one time I owned a very large Tenba 8x10 case and dedicated Kelty frame that had all the appropriate bells and whistles. I found that it did not suit my purposes so I found it a new home. I then went to a good backpacking store and bought a large pack for under $150.00. It had both upper and lower compartments and multiple zippers for external access. By adding foam insulation, the KMV is nicely protected and the pack will also accomodate, three to four lenses, three to four holders and the necessary smaller accessories such as the darkcloth, meter and loupe. Compared to the expensive Tenba pack, it was lighter, more comfortable and it fit better. I have also seen a $10.00 thrift store suitcase with rollers, that has been converted to a most suitable 8x10 case. As with cars, or even more so, trucks...everyone seems to have a distinct opinion on what works best and in most cases, no one is wrong, as most folks end up getting to where they need to be..... eventually.