Help me get started with tray development! Temperature control?

[welly]

Hey guys,

I've cleared a bit of room in my bathroom and found a folding table which I think will make a perfect table for trying out tray developing sheets. I actually got given a bunch of darkroom bits and pieces, including three Paterson trays. It looks like the trays are slightly larger than 8x10 - at least a box of Ilford 8x10 paper fits in the tray, a little snug but it fits. Would this be suitable for 8x10 sheets or would I really need a larger tray to give the sheets a bit of space?

So obviously the basic process that I've been doing with developing tanks is the same, which I'm fine with. How do you keep the temperature consistent throughout the development process? What about agitation methods? Any advice on this? How many sheet can I/should I develop at a time or should I be developing a single sheet at a time?

I think that will do for now, will add more questions as I think of them!

Cheers,

Welly

[Brian Ellis]

You can probably get by with that tray for 8x10 film (I assume that's what you're processing). I used an 11x14 tray but a tray slightly larger than 8x10 will probably work o.k. You just need to be sure you have enough room to grasp the film when you move sheets from bottom to top of the stack.

Agitation methods are up to you. I moved the bottom sheet in the stack to the top throughout the development process. When I completed one cycle I lifted each corner of the tray up and down once to jiggle the developer, then went back to moving the sheets from bottom to top until the cycle was completed again, etc. etc..

I started out with one sheet just to get a feel for the process. But that's obviously very time-consuming. I eventually got up to 6 sheets at a time though I never did get rid of the occasional scratch. The number of sheets didn't seem to matter, I could scratch one out of two as easily as one out of six though I was able to keep scratches to a minimum. I kept track of which sheet was which by counting, so that I could give different sheets different times in the same run.

FWIW, tray processing for me was the worst way to process film. It keeps you standing over trays inhaling chemicals for 10-15 minutes at a time, it keeps you totally in the dark until the film hits the stop bath (some people wait until it's in the fix though that isn't necessary), it led to occasional scratches on the film, keeping track of which sheet is which is kind of a pain (assuming you don't process all for the same time), all in all I just didn't care for it. Obviously others differ but I switched to BTZS tubes for 8x10 which I liked a whole lot better.

[welly]

Cheers Brian. I thought I'd give it a go just to see what the result are like. Whether it'll be my development method of choice is yet to be seen.

I've got a Jobo CPA2 processor which I'm hoping/planning to use for the majority of my developing but after firing it up for the first time today, I'm finding the accuracy of the thermostat is pretty off the mark (20c is closer to 22.5c), which is a bit disappointing. I'm going to do some more testing with that before I commit to it. I'm hoping it'll all work out because it seems like a potentially simple way of developing.

[John Flavell]

I process my 4x5 sheets in 5x7 trays lined up in the bathtub. I find the plastic trays keep the temperature constant throughout the whole process. It is a simple way of developing once you locate a place for everything that makes you comfortable. I also use the same agitation scheme as Brian. Consistency and simplicity will help determine how often to agitate.

I also had access to a Jobo processor but rejected it on the grounds that I wanted the hands-on approach for the whole process.

[welly]

Here's a question. How do you check the temperature when you're in pitch blackness? :)

[John Flavell]

You shouldn't need to check once you have it set. The great thing about plastic is it won't transmit temperature very well, so the temperature stays the same for me throughout. I only need to check between stacks when the lights are on. It's more consistent than the Jobo.

[welly]

That makes sense actually, I don't need to temperature control my Paterson System 4 tanks when I'm developing 35mm or 120 film and have no problem with those. I'm going to give it a whirl tomorrow and see how I get on.

[John Kasaian]

With B&W film I find that having all my chemicals at the same temperature is more important than nailing the temperature exactly (and keeping it there) so I store my stock solutions in amber glass bottles in the same room (resting on the floor) along with distilled water (for diluting) kept along side. If needed, I'll warm or chill the water before mixing (I use one gallon envelopes) so everything is the same temperature when starting out. Having chemicals "warm up" in the tray hasen't been a problem for me, I suspect because the temperatures remain constant from tray to tray. Of course YMMV.

[nray]

I set up a small one in my basement recently using a 3' plastic tub with a small aquarium heater in it. Keeps everything about 72 degrees. Then I use plastic trays set up in a holder in the water bath. I am happy with it.

[Bill Burk]

welly,

Good luck. I've heard 11x14 trays are better for 8x10. I use 5x7 for 4x5. I have the water running now and about to do a half-dozen sheets... I use an ATN Viper infrared viewer, this cuts down on mistakes like putting film in the wrong tray. It also reduces fumbling. For temperature control I use CompnTemp, a USB probe connected to computer that alters time in reaction to temerature fluctuations. (I black out the computer screen and operate by audio chimes).

[Bill_1856]

Better to use 11x14 trays, at least for developer. The temperature of the solution will go a couple of degrees up due to body heat from your hands. Helps to wear gloves.

[welly]

Just measured the trays and they're 10x12 so a little bigger than I thought and so should be "ok" for 8x10 perhaps?

[Greg Blank]

Due to the mechanical nature of the CPA's temperature knob (Really just connects to a fancy rheostat) 2 degrees and 1/2 is very good for that specific machine. They were only really designed for Back and white processing. The CPP2 machines on the other hand use IC comparators to regulate the temperature- so the CPP2 is more accurate- though I have seen a few that are almost that bad before I tweek them.



Cheers Brian. I thought I'd give it a go just to see what the result are like. Whether it'll be my development method of choice is yet to be seen.

I've got a Jobo CPA2 processor which I'm hoping/planning to use for the majority of my developing but after firing it up for the first time today, I'm finding the accuracy of the thermostat is pretty off the mark (20c is closer to 22.5c), which is a bit disappointing. I'm going to do some more testing with that before I commit to it. I'm hoping it'll all work out because it seems like a potentially simple way of developing.

[ROL]

Would this be suitable for 8x10 sheets or would I really need a larger tray to give the sheets a bit of space?

I would advise at least 11X14 or larger for 8X10. Usually, one uses the next (film) size larger. Use at least enough chemical to cover the sheets, and ideally at least 50% more.


How do you keep the temperature consistent throughout the development process?

The easiest thing to do is to put everything out at least a day before working to allow things to come to ambient temperature, which could, or should, be around 20ºC (i.e. house AC), fine for B/W. Use jugs of distilled water, set out ahead of time in this manner for your developer mixes. The stops and fix are not that critical and can vary quite a bit, but if left out (in jugs), should be close to the same temperature as your distilled water. Just not rocket science. You can use a temp control valve on your faucet if you have one. Keep your hot little (gloved) fingers out of the developer as much as possible.


What about agitation methods? Any advice on this? How many sheet can I/should I develop at a time or should I be developing a single sheet at a time?

You might at least try stack processing (use practice sheets in the light, then dark), the traditional way of tray processing multiple sheets, say 6 – 8, at a time. Stack processing is well described in many books, its shuffling and rotation of individual sheets, is agitation. With 8X10, that is probably the most efficient way of processing, but with a light processing load, developing single sheets can be very rewarding, and scratch free.

[tgtaylor]

I've got a Jobo CPA2 processor which I'm hoping/planning to use for the majority of my developing but after firing it up for the first time today, I'm finding the accuracy of the thermostat is pretty off the mark (20c is closer to 22.5c), which is a bit disappointing. I'm going to do some more testing with that before I commit to it. I'm hoping it'll all work out because it seems like a potentially simple way of developing.

That's why Jobo includes two therometers with the unit: one for B&W (in degrees F) and the other for color (in degrees C). Whether I am processing B&W or color I fill the unit and rinse bottles with water that is about 4 degrees cooloer that the processing temperature. For example, 64F for B&W. I then immediately mix the developer. I keep developer stock (Xtol) in floating lid tanks in the bathroom and is at the ambient temperature of the room. I usually dilute the stock 1:1using the same tap water that I filled the tank with (I bring a 2 liter graduate to the bathroom with me to mix the developer, fix, and HPC with) as long as the resulting temperature of the mixtures is close to (preferably below) that in the unit. Once all the chemistry is in the unit, I wait for the therometer in the trough to reach the desired processing temperature - tweaking the thermostat to edge it along more quickly. Once the temperature is reached for B&W (68) I turn the thermostat all the way off. If the ambient temperature in the room is about the same as in the trough the temperature in the trough will remain dead on at 68F for most of your run. It will start to creep up (or down) with removal of the bottles but that creep doesn't start to occur for many minutes after the developement stage is completed. If the ambient temperature is much higher than the processing temperature, than I place a plastic bottle of frozen water that I keep in the fridge into the far right slot furthest from the developers slot) at the instant the therometer indicates a creep upward, and remove it as soon as it's back on the 68 degree mark. Since the ambient temperature is always much lower that the processing temperature for color it's necessary to occasionally tweak the thermostat upwards but again this is rarely necessary as the critical development time is short and it takes significant time for the temperature of 20 liters of water to raise significantly. So I have found it quite easy to keep the processing temperature in tight tolarance (+- 1/4 degree) of the desired temperature and usually dead on for most if not all of the run. In fact my last run was 2 sheets of 8x10 with a development time of 21.5 minutes for the developer with the temperature in the trough remaining dead on for all steps without the need to tweek.

Thomas

[Pawlowski6132]

You don't need to keep it at a constant temperature. If the temperature changes, just adjust your development time accordingly.

[mdm]

Its winter and probably cold in your bathroom at night so the developer temp will drop gradually until summer warms us up. Dont tell the police, but I start out with 2:2:100 Pyrocat hot, over 30C aproximatly (but my laundry is very cold at night), and use a night vision scope to develop by inspection.
You could use an amber safelight with Pyrocat (or green for others) for a quick burst well into development.
I found if I used more dilute developer I got less even development, cold developer at the start gave me finger marks.
They are slippery bastards so you need a tray big enough that you can withdraw the bottom film without scratching it on the sides, but small enough that the film will stay in a reasonably tight bundle without being able to rotate orientation. I got less scratches developing emulsion down, withdrawing the bottom sheet. You can use tupperware, as I do, but it can be hard to get hold of the bottom sheet so I put a thermometer in the bottom of the tray with a wasted sheet above it, so that the first real sheet does not get uneven development from contact to something other than a piece of film, I then just shuffle it with the others. The first sheet sits at the bottom for a while before its moved and I always finish every round so the waste sheet sits at the bottom. I rotate the tray after every round so I am not using fingers on the same spot of the film all the time.
Be vey careful of water on your hands and make shure each sheet is fully submerged before the next goes in or they will stick together. I hold the sheets in my left hand, use right to pop sheets in and then poke them under with my pinkie, so the pinkie is the only wet finger until I start shuffling.
Best to use plenty of developer, too little = disaster.
Search youtube for tray developing videos, thats how I learned. Go to michaelandpaula.com for development by inspection article.
I dont presoak my ilford film or xray film, and to make life easier at the start you could do away with the stop too, go straight to fix. As soon as I have shuffled all my sheets once in the fix (twice to be safe I suppose) I turn on the lights. So you may only have the lights off for less than 10 minutes.
Using a night vision scope makes the process very interesting.
I think conventional developers will be easiest to use, I seldom had problems with D23 but Pyrocat gave me more scratches and uneven development until I worked it out.
Dont expect to get it right first time, it takes a little experience to get right and then the most important thing is DISCIPLINE, as soon as you get lazy and take a shortcut somewhere, bang, you wreck a sheet.
If you are only doing 1 or 2 sheets, maybe do them one at a time in a tray face up like paper.

David