Jobo 1000 Problems - Stops on Color, Works on B&W.

[gavinseim]

I have an ATL 1000 that for developing my 4x5. It worked great when I got it and it still works great with B&W. But with the C41 process (E6 also I believe) it stops in the middle. The process starts running and about halfway through it's like it loses power. Not a sudden stop, but like an RC car running our of batteries the lights start to fade and the drum eventually stops all together. The water does heat up.


Not sure what could be happening. Is the water bath for color shorting something out? I took off the bottom and lee no leaks inside or circuits that are visibly fried. I've pulled pout tanks and cleaned thing up and checked for bare wires somewhere. But no matter what I do it will no longer get through a complete color process. I still use it for B&W with no problems at all.


Any insights would be appreciated. I don't really know where to go from here or what part I might need to replace. With no Jobo service centers I feel pretty stuck. I want to get this thing working again.

Gav

[koh303]

First thing to check is the thermal overload reset switch, located inside the control housing (just under the selector dials. It may be tripping in color runs as the temp is higher.
Remove the front inside panel to reach it.

There is no visible indication when that switch is in or out, just press it in with your finger, close up and try again.
If this does not solve the issue -
does it always stock at the same point?
If so when?
If not, when?
Does it start right back up when you cycle the on off button?

[gavinseim]

Thanks for the tips. I'll try.

It does seem to happen roughly at the same point but I've not times it yet. If I cycle button it seems to start up sometimes, or weakly start spinning like it's lacking power. But in a short time it stops again.

I'll check those things and report back.

[Phil Hudson]

I had this problem with mine but I never solved it (no longer have the unit). Mine would start working again as soon as the temperature dropped (refilling the water jacket with cold water did the trick) which suggests the thermal cut-out although pressing that switch didn't work for me. Good luck with yours.

[gavinseim]

OK so I did some testing.

1. The machine stops in mid process but has no exact stopping point that I can tell. You start the process, it fills with water, heats up and starts turning the drum. It may even start putting chemicals and or pre-wash in.

2. At some point during the process it starts making a constant beeping sound. This along with the turning of the drum fades very gradually (almost like a capacitor or battery running out on a toy). Eventually the machine stops, lights off as if it has no power.

3. If you cycle the power button at this stage nothing happens. But the longer you leave it off that changes. If you leave it off for say a minute and power back on, it will start for a few seconds with the beep and perhaps a turning drum but the power fades once again. If you do it soon after it stops it may not even have the power to turn the drum. It will just try to love it and then fade away.

4. The longer you leave it off the longer it goes when you turn it back on. But it always stops again. That said if you leave it off for say 10-15 minutes it starts up again without the continues beep. Then after a few minutes the beep will start and the machine will gradually fade out once again.

Again this only seems to be on processes where the base fills with water. A B&W or cleaning process will run just fine. Also the machine worked fine on these processes when i first got it last year. This started a month or two after I bought it.

I did take the control panel off and found the thermal reset. It did not change anything or get the machine going again once it was fading. I notes however that everything inside looks clean and proper. No broken wires, water damage or circuits that appear burned.

Any further help would be greatly appreciated. I have a $1000+ machine ion good condition that no longer does color. It's very frustrating.

[gavinseim]

Correction: The beep is only continuous if the lid is up (a normal sound). With the lid closed there's is a cycled beep that starts as the machine begins to lose power. It fades away just as described above, only it's not continuous unless the lid is open.

[koh303]

I will look in to this and get back to you.

[koh303]

One other thing to check is the water level float senser, which might be gunked up with debris or calcification, which may be causing this issue.

The float is inside the housing and you will need to remove the entire top housing.

Email me at krifartida@gmail.com and i can send you the service manual for how to remove the housing.

[gavinseim]

Thank you. I have removed the top housing so I'm familiar with that. Though the water is about at the line and I assumed that was correct. Is it the water level that could cause the issue or something else.

What's off is how the power fades. Like something electrical is failing.

In any case I"ll check it out... G


One other thing to check is the water level float senses, which might be gunked up with debris or calcification, which may be causing this issue.

The float is inside the housing and you will need to remove the entire top housing.

Email me at krifartida@gmail.com and i can send you the service manual for how to remove the housing.

[koh303]

OK here is what i got:
The water jacket pump is bad, and draws too much power form the PTC switch on the board causing the ultimate power failure.
Once it cools down enough it will run again.

Check the status of the water jacket pump and if it needs replacing let me know and i will get one for you.

Feel free to contact me directly at krifartida@gmail.com

[gavinseim]

Thanks koh. Can you tell me where to find the water jacket pump or what it looks like? Then I'll let you know what I see.

[koh303]

The water pump motor, is the only other motor inside the housing other then the main rotation and lift motor, as far as i can remember it is mounted vertically inside the housing, facing down. But my memory might be off.
Let me know if you find it.
Perhaps you can take a shot of the inside of the unit and i can point it out to you.

Thanks.

[gavinseim]

Sweet. Looks like you nailed it with the pump. I've been down under the tanks before, but never bothered to pull it out. I assume this is what you were talking about since it's the only pump I see. I believe this is what circulates the water in the base during the color processes. It was set horizontally in a slot underneath the chemical tanks.

As you can see from the attached photo, something is very wrong with it. Near as I can tell it still circulates water when running, but judging by it's case it might very well be the culprit.

You indicated you may have parts of these. Is this something you have available?

76315

[koh303]

Yup this is the pump the circulates the water. And yours is quite dead.
When it over stersses it will draw more power, with the heater on and the processor warmer with the hotter process the board power eventually fails, and starts back up when it cools down.

I will get a price for you ASAP, but will not be before next week. I can special order it for you, as i do not have one in stock at the moment.
Please give me your email so i can contact you directly off the board.

Great that you found it.

[gavinseim]

Sounds good. Thanks so much for helping me find it. Email is gavin@seimstudios.com.

G

[koh303]

Gavin - please see my email and PM

[EOTS]

Turns out I've got the same problem...

ATL skrewed up 12 trannies :-(

Cleaning program works well.
The first E6-3bath run I did also worked out (125ml, 1x120).
But directly after that, the second E6-3bath run (500ml, 12x 4x5) died during the color developer stage...

If someone has service manuals, please mail them to martin.jan.koehler _AT_ gmail.com

Thanks,

[EOTS]

Retested with water instead of chemicals and films ...

1) Cleaning stage went well,
2) then a first 500ml E6-3-bath went well,
3) but then during the second 500ml E6-3-bath the ATL shut off during pre-heating the chemicals (before the first bath).

I measured the temperatures in the water bath, both bottom corners, left and right of the drum (at the head of the drum it was 42° celsius).

Is that too hot?

I'm using the main water inlet (tempered pressure).
But as there was no external pumping involved at this stage (heating stage right before First Dev) ... could that have to do with the heater?

Best regards and thanks,
Martin

[koh303]

Martin,

Your problem is most likely linked to the water jacket pump. This is the pump the circulates the water through the machine, and works ALL the time while the processor is on.

You should remove the main cover an inspect the pump (it is blueish, see the photo above). When the pump is that dead, it will work fairly ok when on low temp, but as soon as the temp starts rising it will draw more and more power from the main board until causing the main PCB to overheat and shut down. Once it cools down a bit it will start back up.

The heat you mentioned is fine and within spec, as the water jacket temp is normally higher then the actual process temp to help maintain the exact correct temp in the bottles and rotating drum which are all exposed to room temperature air. you are 3.5 C over the process temp (jobo calls for 3.0C but you are still fine).

So - look for the pump and get back to me.
If it is dead, it will need replacing.

Good luck.

[EOTS]

Thanks, I'll open the machine after work and look for the pump ...

One other strange thing I noticed ... there's always 1°C difference at the left corner of the water bath to the right corner of the water bath.
The left corner near the head of the tank is always 1 degree hotter.
Is that normal?
Does this water jacket pump also the do the circulation in the water bath?

Best regards,
Martin

[koh303]

Circulation of the water bath, is all this pump does.

[gavinseim]

Got your message K. Ya the pump just circulates. Not got my new pump yet. A bit spendy so I've been procrastinating. But if you're pump looks anything like mine that may well be the problem. If you unscrew the main cover and gently remove the tanks you'll see the pump back behind them. You should not need to remove all the hoses. I just gently lift them up and set them back.

You asked about manuals. The ATL manual is still viewable on the Jobo site here... http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_analog/us_analog/instructions/instructions_manual_atl-1500_00.htm. Also if you search around there are PDF version you can download and print out.

[EOTS]

Hi Gavin,

I've looked under the hood.

EDIT: My pump does look also damaged like yours, i've cleaned it and saw a crack.
It's also cosmetically older, it's red, not blue like yours.

Has your's any writing on it?
Mine hasn't, but the pump just looks like a Comet Elegant 12V, except for the red color.
The left one here: http://www.comet-pumpen.de/en/products-rv/pumps/submersible-pumps/12-v/elegant.html

Because I got a new Jobo external mobile pump, which has the Comet Elegant 12V label on it,
and which I don't use at this point, but it looks _exactly_ the same.
I could try to replace it with that one...

But that one can be had for 15 bucks on Amazon for example... so why do you say spendy, or is it just my bad English? *gg*

Best regards,
Martin

[koh303]

I looked at the link martin supplied, and as i mentioned to gavin, many of the Jobo components (pumps and motors) are generic units that are "off the shelve" of the manufacturing companies with little or no modifications. In some cases you can find the exact same component form a different application for near to nothing, or far less then the Jobo factory price. This elegant 12V pump looks like its a good fit. The worst that can happen here is that it will not work. If you can score one for 15$ i would say its not a bad deal to try it and see what happens. The only thing to watch for is wattage and voltage. If you cannot decipher the marking on the pump you have or it has none, perhaps gavin can help. At the moment i do not have any ATL1000 to check with.

Good luck - keep us posted on your progress.

[EOTS]

Hi,

I talked to Klaus-Dieter Seynsche, the man who led the Jobo Customer Service for 28 years.
He told me that the Comet Elegant 12V is a valid replacement, and the polarity doesn't matter.

I'll replace the pump this evening and will let you know!

As you can see, the inside of the machine is quite dirty.
76984

He gave me a nice cleaning hint:
Buy citric acid from the pharmacy, and run the E6-38° Process with open lid and water bath with one large spoon of the acid for a couple of hours,
and exchange the water three times.

Best regards,
Martin

[gavinseim]

Great info guys. I'm not unwilling to buy an OEM part, but if we can get something aftermarket that works that's super. This looks about right. I'm heading out for a road trip so you may have yours done first Martin. Please report how it works.

O looked at mine again and see no markings. But the Comet looks very close. Did you order it from Comet of somewhere else?

[EOTS]

Hi guys,

I've done the replacement this evening, and now the third E6 process ( water instead of chemicals of course ;-) )
is running though!
Also the water bath is well-tempered around 38°C +/- 0,5°, not around 41,5°C like before, as the water circulation now works fine.

Can't say how happy I am now :-D

Thank you all guys for the help!!!
Especially Omer!!!

Gavin: just get the Comet Elegant 12V! Really! That's the one ... like I said, the Jobo engineer who repaired those machines for 28 years say's it's ok ... and I have it working ... so go for it ;-)
It's a German company, so I don't what's the easiest way in USA, but I guess if you look at caravan shops, they have it!
http://www.amazon.de/Comet-COMET-Tauchpumpe-Bezeichnung--Elegant/dp/B001CV02U4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341952023&sr=8-1

I guess easiest international buying would be via Ebay ... f.ex. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Comet-Elegant-submersible-water-pump-12v-10-litre-caravan-motorhome-van-boat-/221065529272?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item33788847b8#ht_500wt_1156
Perhaps you can get them to sell to USA?!

Best regards,
Martin

[koh303]

Great - glad to hear it worked, and a cheap replacement found.

[EOTS]

Well, not really cheap, I have the official Jobo version, 115 EUR: http://www.lumiere-shop.de/index.php?page=product&info=588
But it's just a Comet Elegant 12V, sold by Jobo...
There does not seem to exist anything that can be readjusted, also Mr. Seynsche did not bother to ask if it's bought from Jobo...

Best regards,

[koh303]

Martin,

it seems the pump can be had for less then that from amazon... thats what i meant by cheap...

Not sure i understood the second part of your last post about Mr. Seynche.

[EOTS]

Sorry for my poor English ;-)

I meant I think that I just overpaid by buying the Jobo version, as it really has the same label as here:
http://caravanalia.com/images/store/full/f221.jpg

I actually bought it for the mobile water supply (version with the jack plug).
Now I have an overengineered water supply on steroids ;-)
using the Jobo Heater (from the mobile water supply kit) in a canister,
in combination with a Shurflo caravan pump which gives me up to 3 bar pressure.

As I extracted the old pump, I saw that it really looks the same, just red.

What I meant in regard to Mr. Seynsche:
As I approached Mr. Seynche I did only mention that I have a Comet Elegant 12V pump,
and did not say anything about that I bought it from Jobo.
That demonstrates that the Jobo Pump version is no different from the comet Elegant version.

And I mean, what could go wrong anyway? It's just a circulation pump ...
My setup runs stable now for many hours, so that's proof enough for me anyways ;-)

Best,

[gavinseim]

Glad to hear it EOTS. I found one of eBay for about $20 delivered from the UK. Plan to have my ATL1000 up and running again soon.