PDA

View Full Version : Recommendation for a good starter 4x5?



MichaelS
9-Jun-2012, 17:03
Hi - I've been a fairly serious 35mm practitioner for most of my life but have been unhappy with the negative/print quality for the past few years. I've been thinking about "jumping in" and getting a 4x5 for a few years now but have had too many concerns RE: price and my ability to actually print the negatives, but the bug has bitten me again, and am hoping to get any advice for a good quality "starter" 4x5 camera. I'm thinking Wista, but am really looking for suggestions. Please feel free to also recommend lenses, other equipt., places to purchase, etc. Any advice would be really appreciated!

Thanks!

Ken Lee
9-Jun-2012, 17:29
What subjects do you intend to photograph ?

Do you generally use short lenses ? Long lenses ? Close work ? Dim light ?

Do you need something small/light, or do you plan to stay in the studio, or work mainly indoors ?

Why these questions ? Because cameras that can accomodate every kind of subject, tend to be heavy, or large. Lighter and more portable cameras generally have more limited movements, bellows extension, etc. Most cameras represent a compromise of one sort or another.

As a rule of thumb, lenses for 4x5 are 3x the length of 35mm lenses: a normal lens is ~150mm.

Unlike the overall trend with 35mm and digital cameras, most lenses for Large Format have no color fringing, barrel/pincushion distortion, etc. Even an uncoated lens from the 1930's can give images of wonderful quality, all the way out to the edges of coverage.

Alan Gales
9-Jun-2012, 18:41
Most people do not keep the first large format camera they buy. They learn on that first camera and then they realize what they really want and buy that later. This is why I recommend that you buy an inexpensive used camera at a fair price for your first camera. You can always sell it later for close to what you originally paid.

This same advice goes for lenses. A 150mm or 210mm in a modern copal shutter from Schneider, Rodenstock, Fujinon, Nikon, or Caltar would make a great inexpensive choice for your first lens.

Some used cameras are sold with a lens for an even better deal.

Scott Knowles
9-Jun-2012, 20:13
I would disagree with Alan with respect to the advice to essentially buy a learning camera, in part because it's doubtful you'll be able to sell it and you'll only learn it's deficiencies, especially if it won't do the photography you want to do. I still have and use my first camera because it's a good basic camera, a Horseman HD. It's a simple camera which doesn't have back movements, but is excellent basic work with a decent range of lenses (90mm to 240mm).

I will agree with the others to determine what you want to do first and let that define the camera and lenses, but I would really think hard about it because it's easy to spend money you won't recoup (market is full of used LF gear). And remember above all that film is not cheap to buy and for processing (self or lab), so it's the on-going expense you don't have with digital cameras.

But that said, LF is more about what you can do standing there with the camera than anything which completely changes your visual and thought process, and it's really cool to see a good 4x5 slide, which is all the reason to get and stay in LF photography if you have the funds for it.

Marc B.
9-Jun-2012, 21:21
Michael,
In the links below, (from a quick search), I have marked a few cameras found on the auction site.
These are [only] being suggested as 'watch' items. Load these links into your watch page; wait and see what they sell for.
In the weeks, or months to come, load other 'like type items,' links, to your watch page.

You say you have waited a long time. Wait a bit longer. Look at entry level cameras similar to the links I posted.
Search the web; read-up on the cameras listed. Any of the camera types listed would give you a good start to LF.

Set a budget of, say... $350-$500 USD. As mentioned, this amount should include the cost of camera,
lens, light meter, standard 4 X 5 film holders, case, etc... If later, you find that LF is not for you,
sell the equipment for little loss, if any.

There are also Polaroid, #405, Instant Pack Film backs, that use currently produced Fuji, 3.25" X 4.25", peel-apart instant pack film.
Aside from the 'Fuji-roid' option above, there are 'roll film' backs available for 4 X 5 cameras, using 120 film, with frame widths
from 6 X 7 or 6 X 9, all the way out to 6 X 12 and even 6 X 17cm.
Be warned...the 6 X 12 backs can sell for highs of $600+ USD. However, 6 x 7 or 6 x 9 backs can be had for $70-$120 USD.

Marc



Calumet 4 X 5 - w/lens
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CALUMET-4X5-VIEW-CAMERA-W-215MM-F6-3-CALTAR-LENS-IN-HARD-CASE-/370619499322?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item564aa4c33a

Calumet 4 X 5 - w/lens
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CALUMET-4x5-MONORAIL-VIEW-CAMERA-/170853986906?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item27c7b0f25a

Toyo Omega - No lens included
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toyo-Omega-View-4x5-Monorail-Camera-with-Accessories-and-Case-/230801907505?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item35bcdd9f31

Speed Graphic - w/lots of extras + lenses
http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-PACEMAKER-GRAFLEX-SPEED-GRAPHIC-AND-CROWN-GRAPHIC-4X5-GRAFLEX-135mm-OPTAR-/110893091897?pt=US_Vintage_Cameras&hash=item19d1be4c39

Cambo 4 X 5 Monorail - No ground glass, No lens
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CAMBO-4X5-FILM-CAMERA-CAMBO-CASE-HOLLAND-/190671019751?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item2c64e0dee7

John Kasaian
9-Jun-2012, 21:46
You can assemble a cheap kit with a Calumet 401, Tiltall tripod, 3 or 4 used film holders and a used 210 lens from any of the big names that will accept the size of screw on filters you already have. Use your 35slr for a light meter. Scrounge around for a heavy black t-shirt, a magnifier for focusing & a cable release, and you're good to go!
Once you get the basics down--its not rocket science--and see what LF can do and if it's something you want to pursue, you can evaluate what items in your kits works and dosen't work for you. Maybe a folding camera like a Shen, or a handheld Speeder will be in order. Maybe the monorail does everything you want.
My point is that once your shooting sheet film (and it makes no sense to drop a ton of money if you're exploring---expensive does not equate to quality negatives) you'll have a better idea of what you can really use, what makes using your camera fun, and just as important---what you can do without.

I'd also encourage you not to mess with ebay especially if you don't know what to look for. If your first large format camera has problems it will give you fits---something you don't need to deal with when you're learning. Midwest Photo, Keh, and some other places will stasnd behind the used gear they sell. The folks who list stuff for sale here may also quite likely to treat you well.

Jim Jones
10-Jun-2012, 06:46
Knowledge is power. A good book (or several) on large format photography empowers one to make wise purchases and better photographs. Even so, one's first LF camera will probably not be their last one, and the last one might not be the only one. Over many years I've accumulated press, monorail, and field cameras. Each has its uses. Newer models may have conveniences lacking in old basic cameras, but rarely can take better photographs. Newer designed and multicoated lenses are better than the lenses of many decades ago, but the older lenses can do for today's photographer what they did for Ansel Adams and Edward Weston. The pet cameras and lenses of fine photographers won't help most of us take noticably better photographs. Before serious investments in camera gear, check descriptions and prices in completed auctions on ebay. As for printing, we now have a choice of wet darkrooms or scanning and digitally printing. With patience, good enlargers can be found for little or nothing. For years a modest Epson 2450 flatbed scanner served me well enough. It's a wonderful age to start large format photography!

Frank Petronio
10-Jun-2012, 07:06
No association with the seller, just an example, but great cameras like the Sinar F sell in the $300s nowadays: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sinar-F-with-Back-Ext-Rail-Fresnel-Focus-Screen-New-Bellows-EX-CLEAN-/261041847195?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item3cc74e7b9b#ht_500wt_1377.

In general, the wealthier hobbyists want exotic wooden lightweight cameras so if you do the opposite, you'll save a ton on professional metal monorails with full, unlimited movements, robust build quality, and unlimited systematic expansion capabilities.

A 150 - 180 - 210 f/5.6 Rodenstock Sironar-N or Schneider Symmar-S is a great lifetime lens, also found for under $300.

Old-N-Feeble
10-Jun-2012, 07:44
What do you mean by "starter"? Inexpensive... or easier to learn with? What range of lens FL do you need?

From what I've read 4x5 enlargers can be had really cheap right now... so now is the time to buy.

John Kasaian
10-Jun-2012, 07:58
Steve Simmons Using the View Camera is a good book to read before investing serious $$

Frank Petronio
10-Jun-2012, 08:02
Yeah a book! The out-of-print Jim Stone one is better, unlike the Simmons book he uses sentences.

http://www.amazon.com/Users-Guide-View-Camera-Edition/dp/0130981168/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1339340389&sr=1-1

MichaelS
10-Jun-2012, 08:08
Wow - thanks so much for the terrific advice - it is appreciated! ...To answer some of the questions raised, by "starter" I just meant a first LF camera - something I can learn on, but also something that will give me good quality results. The point of getting a LF camera will be to improve my work, so I definitely don't want to purchase something and then find it can't do what I need. In terms of use, I'm planning/hoping to use the camera mainly for close-ups/abstractions and landscapes outdoors, perhaps still lives (indoors). At this point, no plan for portraiture or architectural work, but who knows... :) Again, many thanks.

Old-N-Feeble
10-Jun-2012, 08:18
Michael... My idea of a good "starter" 4x5 is a used Chamonix 45N-2. But that's also what I consider a forever keeper unless you need rear shift. Good "starter" lens FL, IMHO, are 90mm, 150mm and 210mm. Excellent examples of each can be had for a song... about $200-300 each. So, a good "starter" 4x5 kit, sans tripod, meter and other sundries, can be had for less than $2000 used.

Frank Petronio
10-Jun-2012, 08:23
I'm too dumb to figure out how a Champonix moves, it looks pretty complicated, if you loosen one knob then the front shifts and tilts and rises? I like a knob or lever for each movement myself, I'm slow like that.

Louis Pacilla
10-Jun-2012, 08:58
Seems to me there are PLENTY of great deals on starter 4x5 Rail cameras with lenses, a hand full of holders and a case to haul it around town in. Put it on a dolly attach an appropriate tripod to the dolly and your ready to go. I have even pulled a dolly with little effort into the woods. Albeit, not to far in but still far enough to find a interesting shot. Obviously, using it around the house/studio is even easier than the above.

My opinion is to stay away from Chamonix as a first 4x5. WAY more trouble to use than a rail camera . With a rail camera you simply take the camera out of the case attach to tripod pull standards out to infinity focus with chosen focal length and your ready to compose your shot.

While with my Chamonix I find it can be fiddly to get the standards in the correct parallel position particularly horizontal position. And I could not agree more with Frank. Man it can be frustrating as heck to have one locking control to be loosened and three movements go out of position. These things can be overcome but it can be as stated earlier very frustrating and time consuming.

I for one am thankful that when I first entered large format photography I started with a inexpensive 4x5 rail camera.

pdmoylan
10-Jun-2012, 09:12
Toyo/Omega 45d (you'll need a set of allen wrenches to tigthen some of the components as necesssar) or a Toyo A or AII are great to start. Bellows are an issue so you should inquire about the bellows before buying. A new one could cost you as much as the camera. A Wista is a good choice but many are not as solid as the Toyo field camera.

I would start with a 120 or 150mm if you can only afford 1 lens. I don't find the 210mm as a "natural" extension of my vision in most cases. Still, an interesting Focal Length.

Kodachrome25
10-Jun-2012, 09:59
I started with a mint toyo 45CF, awesome camera with limited basic movements and the ability to fold with a small lens mounted. I then upgraded to a brand new chamonix 45N-2 and love it. The controls take some getting used to but after a short time become second nature. I use 4x5 mostly for landscapes but also do some portraits so it has plenty of range of movement for what I want out of the format. I use lenses in 65, 90, 135, 180 and 240mm focal lengths. I got the 135 apo Sironar and Fuji 240 A from KEH, the 90 on eBay and a fab deal on the 180 5.6 Apo Symmar in new condition on Craigslist for just $220 shipped, killer lens even wide open, I highly recommend it as a first lens as an option to a 150 or 210.

Be aware of what shutter a lens may be mounted in, Copal-0 is what most of mine are for remote backpacking reasons, the Copal-1 on my 180 is the biggest one I have. A Copal-3 would be huge, adds weight and makes cranking down the knobs mandatory. If you are more of a studio guy, then this is not as big of an issue. But if you are like me and spend a week or more in some remote region, weight and bulk are foremost concerns.

4x5 is a lot of fun, but using the camera is the easiest part, dealing with the constant battle of dust while loading, exposing and souping the film and finding the best way to get great quality and consistent processing if you do it on your own can be a real pain in the rear, especially when compared to 35mm or 120. The difference in your "Return on Investment" is night and day between those formats. In my 22 year career of shooting, I have never had as many botched frames of film as I have on getting 4x5 dialed in when considering dust hairs on film pre-exposure or getting the clean film I expect to be able to make salable images from.

I am not saying it is not worth it, but it is a heck of a lot more work than 35mm or 120.

dap
10-Jun-2012, 10:37
The advice here is spot on. I would tend to shy away from new gear if you are just starting out. If you buy new and down the road decide that LF is not for you (or if you find that first camera you bought doesn't suit your needs) you WILL lose money when you unload it. If you buy used loses are minimal (as long as you didn't overpay). I would also second the advice to look for a rail camera if you are on a budget. The folders alway seem to be more popular (more $$$). That being said, if a folder would suit your needs better go with one.

I would also not assume that you'll get the best deals on ebay when buying used equipment (especially in the case of monorail cameras). I have seen amazing bargains for monorail cameras on the KEH website (I recently saw a bargain condition late model Linhof color 4x5 monorail being offered for around $150 on KEH...unfortunately it was already snapped up by the time I talked myself into buying it).

Ken Lee
10-Jun-2012, 12:19
What Frank said. A folding wooden field camera is (in my humble opinion) a specialty camera, where a monorail is the norm. For close work we need lots on bellows draw: even a 150 mm lens requires 300mm to get to 1:1. A 210mm will need 420 mm

Alan Gales
10-Jun-2012, 12:20
Michael,

The first person to answer you is Ken Lee. At the bottom of Ken's answer is a link to his website. Make sure that you look at it. Besides Ken's wonderful photography you can click on Tech and find some very useful information. Also click on LF Home Page at the top of this page for some great information. All this is free.

I own the Steve Simmons book "Using the View Camera" and it has really helped me. I have not read the Jim Stone book but if Frank says it's really good then you can bank on it that it is.

Alan

Old-N-Feeble
10-Jun-2012, 12:26
Ken... A Chamonix 45N-1 or 45N-2, without extension, reaches 395mm and with extension about 200mm more.

Frank Petronio
10-Jun-2012, 15:21
This just sold for $192 = a Sinar F1 with several extras: http://www.ebay.com/itm/290721396987?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_500wt_1182

Even if you opt to get something else later, you can not go wrong with that even as a spare or as a camera to use when you're not trekking the Himalayas....

Alan Gales
10-Jun-2012, 15:39
That was a great buy, Frank.

The spirit levels were dried up as usual. No big deal at all. A cheap torpedo level from the local hardware store works just fine.

John Kasaian
10-Jun-2012, 15:54
I see good used monorails going between $100-$200 while useable Speeders and Crown Graphics are bringing in 2-4 times that.
Is there a resurgence of hand held LF photography going on?

Ken Lee
10-Jun-2012, 16:04
Ken... A Chamonix 45N-1 or 45N-2, without extension, reaches 395mm and with extension about 200mm more.

You're right - a fine camera! My post attempted to describe the general trend - but as you point out, there are always exceptions. The Wisner Technical Field (I had one) lets us shoot with a 450mm Fujinon C right out of the box, and a Canham DLC will do the same. These are great cameras for the field - which can also be used for close work - but they are field cameras first, just as other models are primarily studio cameras.

Approaching the middle from the other perspective, the Arca Swiss Discovery (I had one) is a lightweight studio camera that can easily be carried into the field: with an extension rail, it too accommodates a 450mm Fujinon C. The lightweight Sinars (and several others) fall into the same category: unlike wooden field cameras, they don't fold up, but they offer full movements front and rear, and don't need unfolding before shooting, or folding afterwards.

In yet another category are some of the "vintage" models, like a 5x7 Kodak 2D (with a 4x5 back). It too gives rather long bellows draw, but is neither a monorail nor a typical folding camera. It's a tailboard design that folds down partially. It has some movements in the front, and other ones in the rear.

Kevin Crisp
10-Jun-2012, 16:14
Guess I'm in the minority here. Unless you want to photograph indoors I'd say a Tachihara folding wooden camera. That was my first and I only stopped using it when a burglar took it. Easy to figure out, light weight, plenty of movements, inexpensive. Decent ground glass Fresnel on most of them.

Frank Petronio
10-Jun-2012, 16:15
Daniel Stone has a lovely and quite usable Calumet 4x5 for under $100 here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?90107-FS-Calumet-CC-400-4x5-camera-w-carrying-case

Alan Gales
10-Jun-2012, 16:47
Guess I'm in the minority here. Unless you want to photograph indoors I'd say a Tachihara folding wooden camera. That was my first and I only stopped using it when a burglar took it. Easy to figure out, light weight, plenty of movements, inexpensive. Decent ground glass Fresnel on most of them.

Your not in the minority. I own a Tachihara 4x5 along with a Sinar P 4x5 and a Wehman 8x10. Ken Lee uses a Sinar P and I believe he still owns a Tachihara 4x5. I prefer the Sinar over the Tachihara, that is until I have to pick it up and carry it. :)

John Kasaian
11-Jun-2012, 07:34
You guys who bemoan the wieght of your 4x5s need to spend a little time schlepping an 8x10 around.:rolleyes:

E. von Hoegh
11-Jun-2012, 07:41
You guys who bemoan the wieght of your 4x5s need to spend a little time schlepping an 8x10 around.:rolleyes:

Absolutely. Don't forget the tripod, filmholders, accessories, lunch, and water.

Kevin Crisp
11-Jun-2012, 07:42
You guys who bemoan the wieght of your 4x5s need to spend a little time schlepping an 8x10 around.:rolleyes:

Been there, done that. Settled on 5X7.