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rpalm
9-Jun-2012, 07:27
I'm interested in picking up a wider lens.
Do any of these lenses: 72mm, 75mm, 80mm, & 90mm work better with a center filter?
I'm trying to figure out which size lens to buy. I don't have a specific purpose, I want something wider than my 150

Thanks for the help

r

Gem Singer
9-Jun-2012, 07:30
Get a Nikon/Nikkor f8, or an f5.6 90SW 90SW. No need to use a center filter with those lenses.

In fact, unless you are shooting color transparency film, no need to use a center filter with any of the focal lengths you mentioned.

rpalm
9-Jun-2012, 07:56
Thank you for the help!

r

Old-N-Feeble
9-Jun-2012, 08:21
I disagree. Use of a CF depends on FL of the lens vs. film size, type and degree of camera movement needed, type of film used, and your personal preferences. On 4x5 I'll be using a CF for anything 90mm or wider. Many folks will disagree. However, more will agree that a CF is needed on any lens 75mm or wider.

Gem Singer
9-Jun-2012, 09:32
Old-n-Feeble (Mike),

The OP was inquiring whether a center filter was absolutely necessary on a wide angle lens.

I contend that a center filter is not always needed on a wide angle lens. However, a center filter can be utilized if one wants to

spend the money for it and is wiling to give up a few stops of light..

It's a matter of "needs" vs "wants".

Old-N-Feeble
9-Jun-2012, 09:34
Gem... I agree though my post may not have made that clear. I should have indicated that my opinion is very personalized. I tend to be very picky about some things.

Bob Salomon
9-Jun-2012, 09:40
All wide angle modern lenses from all manufacturers may require a center filter. Nikon just never offered one. Not because their lenses didn't have the same fall-off as the others.

Gem Singer
9-Jun-2012, 10:29
Bob,

Several years ago, I asked a NIkon Rep. the same question.

His response was the need to use a center filter with one of their wide angle lenses was so rare, that it was not worth while for Nikon to

tool up and manufacture those expensive types of filters.

However, as you state, it may be necessary to use a center filter with WA lenses, in some circumstances.

In that case, they are available from other manufacturers.

Bob Salomon
9-Jun-2012, 10:53
He didn't know what he was talking about. And I was the national Sinar rep when we introduced the Nikon lenses at EPOI. They need a center filter just as much as any of the other lenses do.

Gem Singer
9-Jun-2012, 11:07
Bob,

That Nikon rep. knew what he was talking about. He never said that a center filter was not needed with Nikon WA lenses.

He merely stated that the need to use a center filter was so rare that it was not worthwhile for Nikon to manufacture them.

Bob Salomon
9-Jun-2012, 11:48
He still didn't know what he was talking about.

Gem Singer
9-Jun-2012, 13:14
Bob,

Congratulations. You must be the only remaining knowledgeable sales Rep. in the USA.

So tell me, looking over the HP Marketing website, does your company distribute any products that are made in the USA?

Nathan Potter
9-Jun-2012, 13:25
Hey folks; if it's poring rain you don't necessarily need a raincoat or umbrella; but sometimes it's useful. Nikon wide angles fall off at the corners similarly to other wide lenses. A 75 mm Nikon I use frequently shows corner fall off of perhaps 1.5 stops which is problematical with transparency film so I use a center filter about half the time or more.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

Old-N-Feeble
9-Jun-2012, 13:29
Hey Bob... Most of us here respect your opinion. As I stated earlier, I'll always use a CF on my wide lenses. I haven't shot anything lately but when I did I found that I needed them.

Bob Salomon
9-Jun-2012, 13:30
Novacon Novaflip flash bracket is made in Rochester, NY and designed by Conrad Sloop who was the inventor of the original Stroboframe bracket.

Most of our products are made in the EU although some Kaiser items, like their lipstick cleaning brush, are made here. The brush comes from Newark, NJ - at least the major part of it does. Our Vue-All pages are made in Ocala, FL and, while not made here, our BRNO Balens and Dri+Cap systems were designed in LA by a US company.

Not the most knowledgable but more experinced perhaps then most. But our sales reps are self-employeed independant sales reps. We have no employeed sales reps in our company. However the sales reps report to me.

Ed Richards
9-Jun-2012, 13:33
Also depends on whether you are shifting the lens. Symmetrical falloff is less of a problem than asymmetric falloff.

Bob Salomon
9-Jun-2012, 13:34
Absolutely!

Gem Singer
9-Jun-2012, 13:36
Bob,

You and I have been throwing barbs at each other for ten years.

I'm too old to play games with you anymore.

Therefore, I've put you on my ignore list.

Please extend the same courtesy to me.

Bob Salomon
9-Jun-2012, 13:39
I have never put anyone on an ignore list and don't plan to. I see no reason to ignore what your thoughts are or anyone else's are. I might not answer them but they are always worth reading.

Old-N-Feeble
9-Jun-2012, 14:02
Gem... assuming you can see this post (that I'm not already on your ignore list), I've never been tempted to put anyone on my ignore list until now. Even so, I'm not going to do that because I'm assuming you have valuable information to share.

Gem Singer
9-Jun-2012, 15:46
Mike,

Since you are already tempted to put me on your ignore list, please feel free to give into your temptation.

I believe that you have nothing of value to add to this forum.


I've been sharing my knowledge, experience, and time here for more than ten years.

Perhaps it's time for me to ride off into the sunset.

Old-N-Feeble
9-Jun-2012, 15:55
Gem... Thank you for your sage wisdom. You are not on my ignore list and never will be. I have enough self-respect that I have no need to ignore you. Should you ride off into the sunset? IMHO, no. But I think I respect your opinions more than you do... or more than "you think" we do.

hiend61
13-Jun-2012, 00:15
If you are shooting with wide angle lenses, no matter the brand of the lens, use shift and color slide film, you'll need a center filter to avoid severe vigneting. If you want to use vigneting as a creative effect, use none or very moderate shifts and negative film, you probably will not need a centerfilter. I use centerfilters according with circunstancies. If I have to photograph a tall decorated wall with accuracy I'll use a centerfilter to avoid vigneting due to the lens fall-off combined with shift movement in order to get an uniform result across the image. If I photograph a landscape and find sky too light I will not use a centerfilter and the fall-off will darken the sky to my taste.

Noah A
13-Jun-2012, 06:21
The short answer to your question is yes, those lenses all work better with a center filter. These wideangle lenses will all show falloff. It doesn't matter what brand. And even though Nikon didn't offer center filters, it doesn't mean that their lenses won't benefit from one depending on your preferences and how you use the lens.

The relevant question though, is will YOU need one for your work?

Do you shoot color or b&w? For b&w, some photographers actually prefer to have the edges of the frame a bit darker, or if not then at least the darkening is easy to fix during printing. For color the darkened edges can be more dramatic, and in some cases can also lead to color shifts toward the edges of the frame. This can be hard to correct, even if you scan your negs. Color neg is a bit more forgiving. You may get seriously dark corners when using a wide lens with transparency film.

Do you use a lot of movements? And what kind? If you shoot straight-on the darkened corners might not be as bad, and they might have more of a pleasing look. If you use rise, sometimes the sky can get a bit dark. That might not be too much of a disadvantage, some photographers might actually like it. I don't mind it if it's just sky but if, for example, there is a building in the top corner of the frame, it can look bad. If you are shooting from an elevated position and you drop the lens to alter the composition, you'll notice the foreground of your photo will get dark, and that often looks strange.

In my opinion you'll definitely need a filter for the 80SSXL, and for any 72/75mm lens. With a 90 you can probably get away without it, but it might still be nice to have if you shoot color and/or use quite a bit of movement.

Ed Bray
13-Jun-2012, 09:31
I've just received my IIIb centre filter (thanks Eric) to use with my 47mm Super Angulon XL, I used it once without the filter on 4x5 and found the vignetting quite extreme, by choosing the IIIb version over the IIIc I will still have a little fall off but not so extreme as without any filter.

Old-N-Feeble
13-Jun-2012, 09:38
Ed... I did the same with a CF but for a different reason. I have two lenses that will share a CF and the longer one requires the less dense 1.5x version. I opted to slightly undercorrect the wider lens with the 1.5x CF rather than slightly overcorrect the longer one with the 2x.

Drew Wiley
13-Jun-2012, 10:34
I can definitively state that the Nikon 90 SW needs the very same correction as a 90
Super Angulon. In fact, I use the Schneider 1.5 filter to correct it. All these wide angle lenses need center filters if you want a balanced field of illumination. Sometimes in black and white photography people like to get "creative" having the corners darkened, but in color work in can downright spoil the reproduction quality. I haven't read all the posts, but
the notion of a Nikon rep stating that they don't make make one because it isn't needed
it about like the guy at the hot dog stand refusing to provide mustard.

Mark J
14-Jun-2012, 10:46
All of the really wide lenses ( S-Ang, Grand. , Nikkor SW, SSym XL ) have about the same levels of fall-off when stopped down.
Then the issue becomes -
(i) How much of the image circle are you using ?
(ii) are you using B&W film or colour ? ( B&W work is more tolerant )

Because you can use various lenses on different formats, it's not easy to think of a simple rule .
What I tend to do is think of this in terms of 35mm equivalent focal length terms. For black and white use, I'd say you can use a lens that is as wide as 24mm on 35mm film without correction in most cases .
Hence on my 6x9 kit, I can use an Apo-Grandagon 55 without having to use the C.F.. However, it would probably fall off a bit too much for colour , so it's a borderline case.
For 4 x 5 " , then I agree that lenses in the 72/75/80 range are pretty wide - like a 20-22mm on 35mm format, and would be too wide to use without visible fall off. 90mm, on the other hand, equates to 25mm on 35mm film, so that should be OK .

The factors I use , to convert , calculating for the format diagonal , are :
6 x 9 : divide by 2.31
4 x 5 : "" 3.55
5 x 7 : "" 4.82
8 x 10 : "" 7.22

If you're going to shift a lot, eg. for architecture, then you need to use the C.F. more often, or alter your rule to 28mm equivalent , or something in that region . If you have dark areas in the corners requiring shadow detail , then again you might have to be more conservative , or use the C.F.

Ari
14-Jun-2012, 10:57
I have both a 90 and 72, and I don't use a CF.
In the rare instances when the need for one arises, i.e. work for a client, I use the Schneider digital CF in Photoshop that came with the purchase of the 72mm XL.
There are probably a few other third-party options available for CFs in Photoshop, you might want to try one before investing a few hundred dollars in an actual CF.

To answer another of the OP's questions, yes, the lenses you list work "better" with a CF, but whether or not you prefer the effect is subjective.
As to which lens you should buy, I don't know; start with a moderate-wide (105mm-120mm) before shelling out $$$$ in exotic super-wides.
Get a lens first, then see if you want a CF.

Drew Wiley
14-Jun-2012, 11:55
You can't photoshop correct negative density gradation into something if it doesn't exist
on the film in the first place. You might be able to fake it to some degree, but a center
filter makes life a helluva lot easier to begin with. Otherwise, you're just playing that "latitude" bullshit game, and risking part of the image being on the wrong part of the
film curve. With color neg film this can easily lead to a color shift in the underexposed
portions, or with chrome, unrecoverable density. Actual experience will tell you when you
should apply a center filter, or how necessary it is to your personal work. But I wouldn't
dream of going onto a commercial architectural job without the proper one.

Old-N-Feeble
14-Jun-2012, 19:16
You can't photoshop correct negative density gradation into something if it doesn't exist
on the film in the first place. You might be able to fake it to some degree, but a center
filter makes life a helluva lot easier to begin with. Otherwise, you're just playing that "latitude" bullshit game, and risking part of the image being on the wrong part of the
film curve. With color neg film this can easily lead to a color shift in the underexposed
portions, or with chrome, unrecoverable density. Actual experience will tell you when you
should apply a center filter, or how necessary it is to your personal work. But I wouldn't
dream of going onto a commercial architectural job without the proper one.

Yes... "cipping" is clipping whether analog or digital. Variances on the "curved" tonal scales require some delicate tweaking even if within tolerances... and those tolerances change between any given color film's layers... the curves of each layer change nonlinearly.

Alan Gales
14-Jun-2012, 21:29
I'm interested in picking up a wider lens.
Do any of these lenses: 72mm, 75mm, 80mm, & 90mm work better with a center filter?
I'm trying to figure out which size lens to buy. I don't have a specific purpose, I want something wider than my 150

Thanks for the help


I would first buy the lens in the focal length that I wanted. I would use the lens and then decide if I wanted a center filter for it. For example, it would be a bit silly to buy a 90mm which you didn't really like all that well just to keep from buying a center filter when you really wanted something a lot wider than 90mm.

r

rpalm
18-Jun-2012, 13:31
Thanks everyone for the advice.
I have been shooting B&W 4x5 and sometimes I do shift the lens.
I'm excited to try a wider lens than I have now, thanx for the help!

r

rdenney
18-Jun-2012, 14:27
You can't photoshop correct negative density gradation into something if it doesn't exist
on the film in the first place.

Absolutely. The narrower the film, the more the corners will drop into blackness if the center holds the highlights. I've shot a 47/5.6 Super Angulon right to its edges, and the falloff is enough to drop the bottom half of the film's range into unrestorable shadow. I can brighten the highlights, but the contrast balance will still be visible. As Drew says, with negative film, the result is color crossover in my experience. Black and white, when developed for maximum range, gets away with it better, but you can still drop stuff into the toe of the characteristic curve.

The shorter the lens, the more likely one is working at the edges of its coverage. And the closer to the edge, the greater the falloff. Super Angulons and lenses of similar design are about as good as it gets in an approximately symmetrical design--their apertures appear round (if they appear at all) even at the extremes of coverage. But the light is spread over more film because of the acute angle. Only a strong retrofocus design--not done in conventional view camera lenses--can correct that issue. The view camera lenses provide superb sharpness and lack of distortion in return.

I routinely use a center filter with my 65mm Super Angulon when using 4x5. But I do not use one on my 90 or 121, neither of which I usually use at their limits of coverage.

Rick "still hoping to find a dirt-cheap center filter for the 47 someday" Denney

Old-N-Feeble
18-Jun-2012, 16:23
Years ago a co-worker tried to convince me about a software product he found that could "interpolate" digital data that was never there. He claimed the thing could understand and "restore" the image of a bird perched on a limb even though only six pixels represented the bird.

Hey... if it ain't there... it ain't there. Just do the right thing whether that's digital or analog. Like a beautiful lady... everything between the toes and the shoulders is great. Everything beyond that is just a headache and a losing battle!!;)