Repair manual for Copal 3.

[Lachlan 717]

Can anyone point me in the direction of a repair manual for a Copal 3?

I have one that is sticking on 1/8 and slower, and wanted to have a look inside to see whether there's anything obvious…

The shutter opens; however, it seems to stick. There is the occasional timer noise (that slight whirling sound). Moving the aperture ring releases the stuck iris.

Thanks,

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

Anybody?

[desertrat]

I just did a Google search using the following character string:

copal shutter repair

Got a bunch of hits. About half way down the first page of hits are images of the insides of a Copal shutter. I didn't look any further, but you should be able to gather a fair amount of information about basic shutter disassembly.

I have several old Wollensak and Ilex shutters that also stick on the slow speeds. The gear train escapement mechanism that controls the slow speeds needs to be cleaned. On some shutters, the slow speed gears can be flush cleaned with solvent, but this can only be done on shutters that have all metallic parts. Some shutters have non-metallic shutter blades and/or iris blades. Flush cleaning these shutters will destroy the blades. Also, some shutters have speed cams lubricated with grease. Flush cleaning these shutters will wash grease into parts that should not be greased, resulting in worse problems. Ask me how I know this. I destroyed the non-metallic blades in an Alphax on an old Ciroflex TLR by flush cleaning it. They curled up as they dried. I completely gummed up a Rapax on another Ciroflex by flush cleaning because the speed cam was lubricated with grease.

The only way to flush clean the slow speed gear train safely is to remove it from the shutter. Some of these units cannot be removed without disassembling them. In that case, it's best to remove the shutter blades, iris diaphragm assembly, and pretty much everything else, leaving just the low speed gear train on the shutter plate. Then it can be flush cleaned.

Of all the shutters I own, the only ones that can be safely flush cleaned without removing parts are my Betax #4s, mainly because they are designed to run dry, and there are no non-metallic parts.

[Leigh]

You cannot "flush clean" any modern shutter, based on the implication that cleaning is done without dis-assembly.

As desertrat stated above, flushing causes migration of lubricants to areas that are not meant to be lubricated.
There's no way to avoid this.

- Leigh

[IanG]

Leigh, a rather well known and highly respected repairman advocates in articles etc careful flushing of sticky shutters as that's often all they need. Many of these shutters are meant to be run dry with no lubrication anyway so that seems to make sense as your just cleaning off dirt. I've resurrected quite a number of shutters this way all now working perfectly some 20-25 years later.

I can understand your point though as there are some big US shutters which are lubricated, often I'll use just a few judiciously placed drops of IPA and no way will I use a more aggressive solvent like naphol or lighter fuel.

Ian

[Leigh]

That's fine, Ian.
One of the great things about the internet is you can find "expert opinions" to support any claim you wish to make.

My statement was restricted to modern shutters, as you'll note. They are all subject to lubricant migration.

An antique shutter that was meant to run dry obviously has no lubricant to migrate. My comments did not address those.

I repaired LF shutters professionally for about ten years. My statements are based on personal experience.

- Leigh

[ic-racer]

Every time this topic comes up you will have the posts from the naptha flushers and the non-flushers.

My personal experience is that flushing a LF shutter with napth has not deposited residue on the shutter blades or aperture blades that more flushing would not remove. In fact, I use copious flushing with naptha to remove oil from aperture blades when that is the primary indication for repair.

Some experience and observation of the movement can frequently allow one to identify areas that need of lubrication:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/ic-racer/2011/compurlubeschedule.jpg

[E. von Hoegh]

Leigh, a rather well known and highly respected repairman advocates in articles etc careful flushing of sticky shutters as that's often all they need. Many of these shutters are meant to be run dry with no lubrication anyway so that seems to make sense as your just cleaning off dirt. I've resurrected quite a number of shutters this way all now working perfectly some 20-25 years later.

I can understand your point though as there are some big US shutters which are lubricated, often I'll use just a few judiciously placed drops of IPA and no way will I use a more aggressive solvent like naphol or lighter fuel.

Ian

IPA?? You use India Pale Ale on your shutters? (gasping smiley)

[IanG]

IPA?? You use India Pale Ale on your shutters? (gasping smiley)

I keep the India Pale Ale for cooking :D I'll use what ever's needed to clean a shutter including WD-40 !!!!

It's a case of being sensible, I wouldn't normally start by heavily flushing a shutter with something that will strip out all the lubricants a few dros of iso-propyl-alcohol is usually enough, but at the other extreme I had no issues soaking a shutter in WD-40 for a few hours however it was on a camera with some corrosion and owed me nothing, the shutter cleaned up perfectly but I did make sure I washed off all traces of the WD-40 with hot water and detergent before flushing well with meths first then IPA. It now works perfectly but it's value was much less than a professional CLA (here in the UK), it's only a Prontor-S :)

Ian

[Bob Salomon]

I keep the India Pale Ale for cooking :D I'll use what ever's needed to clean a shutter including WD-40 !!!!

It's a case of being sensible, I wouldn't normally start by heavily flushing a shutter with something that will strip out all the lubricants a few dros of iso-propyl-alcohol is usually enough, but at the other extreme I had no issues soaking a shutter in WD-40 for a few hours however it was on a camera with some corrosion and owed me nothing, the shutter cleaned up perfectly but I did make sure I washed off all traces of the WD-40 with hot water and detergent before flushing well with meths first then IPA. It now works perfectly but it's value was much less than a professional CLA (here in the UK), it's only a Prontor-S :)

Ian

A word of caution regarding WD 40 and shutter blades from the WD 40 FAQ on their web page.

"WD-40 Multi-Use Product remains effective even after it appears to dry. The corrosion and rust protection ingredients remain adhered to the surface."

That means that if you don't get all traces of WD 40 off the blades it will effect the timing if the blades are supposed to be dry.

[E. von Hoegh]

A word of caution regarding WD 40 and shutter blades from the WD 40 FAQ on their web page.

"WD-40 Multi-Use Product remains effective even after it appears to dry. The corrosion and rust protection ingredients remain adhered to the surface."

That means that if you don't get all traces of WD 40 off the blades it will effect the timing if the blades are supposed to be dry.

Something else which will destroy the timing of an otherwise perfectly set up shutter is magnetism of the shutter blades.

[Leigh]

WD-40 is paraffin dissolved in a carrier.

When the carrier evaporates, the paraffin adheres to whatever is under it.

The product is designed to ensure that this happens. That's how WD-40 accomplishes its water-displacement function.

- Leigh

[IanG]

WD-40 is paraffin dissolved in a carrier.

When the carrier evaporates, the paraffin adheres to whatever is under it.

The product is designed to ensure that this happens. That's how WD-40 accomplishes its water-displacement function.

- Leigh



A word of caution regarding WD 40 and shutter blades from the WD 40 FAQ on their web page.

"WD-40 Multi-Use Product remains effective even after it appears to dry. The corrosion and rust protection ingredients remain adhered to the surface."

That means that if you don't get all traces of WD 40 off the blades it will effect the timing if the blades are supposed to be dry.


It's a useful product but only when used carefully and then only in extreme cases for camera/shutter restoration, it resurrected the shutter of an old rusty camera that until then was a total write off. I bought a brand new (unused) similar shutter for £2/$3.15 a week later but it was a worthwhile experiment as 10 minutes work resurrected a very dead siezed shutter (I did leave the shutter soaking for at least an hou). I've also used it on a large focal plane shutter, but again after everything was freed up etc all traces were removed.

I just remembered I used white spirits first to help remove the WD-40, then a good hot wash with deteregent followed by meths and then IPA, so very clean and no traces of the WD-40 left at the end.

Ian


You'll note that I took all steps to ensure no traces were left, in fact to almost overkill as I repeated the cleaning cycle twice :D. However the WD-40 did it's job well and corrosion etc was removed,

[Leigh]

It's a useful product but only when used carefully and then only in extreme cases for camera/shutter restoration, it resurrected the shutter of an old rusty camera that until then was a total write off.
I expect the real benefit comes from the solvent, which is quite effective.

- Leigh

[IanG]

I expect the real benefit comes from the solvent, which is quite effective.

- Leigh


There's also something that helps with rust/oxidation but WD-40 can damage some metals if it's not cleaned off.

With any repair/restoration you need to weigh up costs of using someone else or a DIY approach, also the possibility that anything you do might boost later repair costs. There are sensible approaches, as it happens I do some rapairs for other restorers ans repair-men but only for what I speciualise in, otherwise it's the other way.

What we are rteally talking about in this thread is quite simple remedies for sticky shutters, they work for many and they've worked numerous times for me. I weigh up whether a commercial CLA is viable, but that's what ny best equipment gets, but I've revived many Copmpurs and a few Copals with little effort and very little alcohol. In don't go for the big flush clean, just a few drops to revive and I thinkj that approach is over-looked.

Ian