Problems developing Rollei IR in 4x5...

[Kodachrome25]

Ok, so here goes...

I shoot infrared in 35mm, 120mm and now 4x5. It is one of my most important films for fine art. I use HIE in 35mm ( yes, I have a ton of the last batch ) HIE and Rollei IR400 in 120mm. I don't use Efke because I had bad luck with the quality control and get better results from HIE if I don't care about the grain.

Rollei IR400 is my primary IR film due to just enough IR effect, tight grain and great quality control....

In 4x5, it is really thin, about half the thickness of say, a sheet of Tmax. So it is just not working in using my preferred method of MOD54 inserts in Paterson 3 reel tanks. Basically, the problem is that the film dislodges very easily from hydrodynamic pressure when pouring chemistry out, causing the film to jump out of the slot and stick to the other sheets.

So now I am looking for alternative methods of developing it that do not require a full time wet side darkroom. I usually soup my film in the kitchen, live in a small apartment, have the enlarger and trays set up in a 15 square foot area of closet space. Tray development is out of the question, not going to work in a production level environment.

The only thing I can see working for this is either a hangar system or one of those grossly overpriced Nikor tanks, if I can even find that. I have to say that in my 36 years as a professional, the lack of high tech, professional level development options for non-Jobo types of production in 4x5 is downright deplorable. The fact that Morgan O' Donovan even had to fab his own design of 4x5 insert really says it all, what a bunch of leaky, ancient, ill thought out garbage for 4x5 film development!

Now that I have said my peace, who in the heck is using Rollei IR 400 in 4x5 with consistent, professional results that don't require a Jobo and rip off 3010 Expert drum and WHAT in the heck are you using?

Will either a craptastic Combiplan hold the film in place, or will it be a stupidly priced $200-$300 Nikor spiral tank?

If I can not get a workable solution for souping this film in 4x5, I might just dump the format all together as it is a really important emulsion for the projects I am working on, but I hope it does not come down to that...

[RichardSperry]

Combiplan works fine with IR 400.

Just don't invert it unless you want to make a mess.
Either use it as a 6X dip and dunk, or slosh twist it.

I use it in a dry darkroom, in an 8x10 dry tray for drips. Separate container for fix(in dark of course). Rinse in the bathroom.

[Kodachrome25]

Not going to work, I need a full daylight solution, I am about fed up with the lack of professional caliber tools in this format and might just kick to the curb at this point...

[Corran]

I don't know what you mean by "full daylight solution" since that's essentially impossible with sheet film, but wouldn't the BTZS tubes work for you?

[polyglot]

You can use a Jobo tank in the daylight (assuming you have a darkbag to load it of course) without the Jobo processor. Just roll it around by hand in the sink.

While the 3010 is excellent but expensive, plenty of people report good results with the 2509N insert in 2xxx tanks.

[RichardSperry]

Not going to work, I need a full daylight solution, I am about fed up with the lack of professional caliber tools in this format and might just kick to the curb at this point...

Well then, that's a problem for you with all 4x5 films, isnt it? Not just IR 400.

There is an active thread here about "when you discovered you were not an LF photographer". Maybe you just discovered you are at that point. Search YouTube for BTZS vids, it's about as daylight as you can get. But it has it's own foreseeable problems.

[Kodachrome25]

Part of the reason I even considered 4x5 is the brilliantly simple and very effective Mod54 Paterson tank insert. I own two and have zero problems with souping any 4x5 film in it except for this darn .11mm infrared sheet film.

Like me, Morgan O'Donovan is a pro who needed total control and consistency from his film development so he just got tired of the garbage and made his own solution. Short of designing some form of acetate stiffener that has some lifter passages for chemistry, I am at a loss as to what to use with this IR film. Sure, I can do any of the standard crap in my bathroom with the lights off, but that is introducing a host of steps that could go wrong and could easily spell the opposite of what I consider to be by far the most important step in a professional film shooter's process.....consistency.

I own one of the better Jobo machines, just don't have the room for it in a 800 square foot 2 bedroom one bath apartment right now....so it is in storage.

[Roger Cole]

Jobo 2521 tank with 2509n reel and a manual roller. I find the loader base helps a lot to make loading simple and easy, but some folks don't use it and don't need it. I tried not using it and went right back to using it.

I use this (and it's big brother the 2551) with a Jobo CPE2. But come to think of it, I'm not sure what the thinner film would do in the 2509. I THINK it would work ok.

[evan clarke]

Jobo 2521 tank with 2509n reel and a manual roller. I find the loader base helps a lot to make loading simple and easy, but some folks don't use it and don't need it. I tried not using it and went right back to using it.

I use this (and it's big brother the 2551) with a Jobo CPE2. But come to think of it, I'm not sure what the thinner film would do in the 2509. I THINK it would work ok.

You can use this tank for stand or semi stand development. I do the Rollei IR in this tank on my Jobo with no issues so the tank will work..just treat it like a 120 tank...

[Tim Meisburger]

you can use a paterson orbital processor, if you can find one.

[Roger Cole]

You can use this tank for stand or semi stand development. I do the Rollei IR in this tank on my Jobo with no issues so the tank will work..just treat it like a 120 tank...

Yahbut, that takes a LOT of solution. It will work though.

[Brian C. Miller]

... I have to say that in my 36 years as a professional, the lack of high tech, professional level development options for non-Jobo types of production in 4x5 is downright deplorable. The fact that Morgan O' Donovan even had to fab his own design of 4x5 insert really says it all, what a bunch of leaky, ancient, ill thought out garbage for 4x5 film development! ...

Why can't you send your film to a lab? You didn't develop Kodachrome at home, did you?

Or black out your bathroom?

Another idea is use a changing tent for your development, like Harrison. Or you could make your own box and cut up a cheap changing bag for the arm inserts. There's also "grow tents" which can be used as a temporary darkroom.

[jb7]

Have you thought about using the MOD tank, using scrap sheets of 4x5 behind the ir film, as stiffeners?

[Kodachrome25]

I thought about sending it to a lab, but 4x5 is pretty spendy compared to most formats and since this is a business, I have to consider annual costs, turn around times, etc.

Also, there are styles of evaluating a good neg, a lot of play room so I want to be able to fully exploit that and souping the film your self is a sure bet to understanding the whole process leading up to a great darkroom based print.

It's just ashame an otherwise perfect film is too thin to actually develop in any method of consistent quality that is also economically sound.

I was given the CPP2 I own, so maybe ponying up for the expert drum would be a wise move, I'll need to do it at some point....

The other thought is that if the back of sheet film in an expert drum can touch the inside of the tube, I wonder if I took sheets of 7 mil. acetate and punch some circulation holes to create a sort of stiffener if that might work. Maybe even dimples to raise the film ever so slightly. The reason I say this is that when I did two sheets back to back in each slot last night, they did not move. But they remained in contact in small areas creating bad development.

There has got to be a way to do this, even if I have to butcher one of my Mod54's.....



Why can't you send your film to a lab? You didn't develop Kodachrome at home, did you?

Or black out your bathroom?

Another idea is use a changing tent for your development, like Harrison. Or you could make your own box and cut up a cheap changing bag for the arm inserts. There's also "grow tents" which can be used as a temporary darkroom.

[RichardSperry]

There is definitely something going on with the IR 400 film

For comparison.
A 120 roll of Fuji Acros 100 is $1.65.
20 sheets of Fuji Acros is about $35.

A 120 roll of IR 400 is about $9.
50 sheets of IR 400 is $70. That's less than the cost of the Acros.

I am pretty sure that the majority of the cost savings is in that thin paper like base.

Anyway, as far as I can tell...

You want a machine to do it.
At home.
For cheap.
In daylight.

You have discarded all the other considerations, would that be fair is stating?


I just read the thread you bumped. I didn't know the Combi Plan was discontinued either until last night.

[vinny]

Bruce wehman has/had a daylight abs tank system that used standard hangers on his site. I think it's still there. I've made several ABS tanks for 4x5 and 8x10 for my own use and it's not that hard, just need precise cuts and a sheet of 1/4" abs. Wehmancamera.com

I got all my expert tanks for $200 each a couple years back. Now they're 2x that at least. Bummer but it's a great way to get good results and you can use it on a beseler motor base if you want to.

[Sal Santamaura]

...if the back of sheet film in an expert drum can touch the inside of the tube...Note that the chambers in a Jobo Expert drum are not cylinders. Hand formed, they're "fat waisted" to ensure chemicals reach the back of sheet film inserted in them.

[Roger Cole]

There is definitely something going on with the IR 400 film

For comparison.
A 120 roll of Fuji Acros 100 is $1.65.
20 sheets of Fuji Acros is about $35.

A 120 roll of IR 400 is about $9.
50 sheets of IR 400 is $70. That's less than the cost of the Acros.

I am pretty sure that the majority of the cost savings is in that thin paper like base.

Anyway, as far as I can tell...

You want a machine to do it.
At home.
For cheap.
In daylight.

You have discarded all the other considerations, would that be fair is stating?


I just read the thread you bumped. I didn't know the Combi Plan was discontinued either until last night.

WHERE are you getting 120 Acros for a buck sixty five?? $3.20 at B&H.

/digression

[Jay DeFehr]

The difference in space requirements for a Paterson tank with an M54 insert, and a Jobo Expert tank is pretty small. The price difference is significant, but if you want Pro level equipment, you should expect to pay Pro prices. I live in a small apartment and process film in my kitchen sink with a Jobo Expert tank. If you can't afford pro level gear, you have to make some compromises. If you can live with processing one sheet at a time, you can use any Paterson-type, center-filler tank large enough to accommodate one sheet of film. Just put the film in the tank, emulsion side towards the center filler tube. Presto! An easy to load/ unload, fully daylight/space-friendly processor that will work with thin film and provide perfectly even development. I recommend using plenty of solution, and agitating by continuous gentle inversion instead of rolling.

[RichardSperry]

WHERE are you getting 120 Acros for a buck sixty five?? $3.20 at B&H.

/digression

were

Adorama

Looks like they just increased the price(blame Kodak for that I suppose).
http://www.adorama.com/FJNA100120.html

Edit, $2.69. Not 1.65. Sorry

[Kodachrome25]

I stopped my whinning, looked at the reality of it, found a new in the box Jobo 3010 and will get a decent Beseler motor base. Problem will be solved and the money saved in having not botched film will pay for the Jobo drum in one year.....or one good print sale.

I look forward to using this system again, using half the chemistry to boot.

[Kodachrome25]

were

Adorama

Looks like they just increased the price(blame Kodak for that I suppose).
http://www.adorama.com/FJNA100120.html

Edit, $2.69. Not 1.65. Sorry

It was $2.69 a roll from Adorama, I ordered 200 rolls at that price. Now they are the same as B&H, $3.20, still not bad....

Victory Camera in Broomfield Colorado has TMY in 4x5 for $75.95 a box, FYI.....

[Jay DeFehr]

I stopped my whinning, looked at the reality of it, found a new in the box Jobo 3010 and will get a decent Beseler motor base. Problem will be solved and the money saved in having not botched film will pay for the Jobo drum in one year.....or one good print sale.

I look forward to using this system again, using half the chemistry to boot.

Good for you! I doubt you'll regret it. Good luck!

[Kodachrome25]

I souped 7 sheets of IR400 last night in the newly arrived Jobo 3010 on a Beseler motor base using continuous direction and the film came out fantastic.

The only downside to using it compared to my Mod54 / Paterson system is that I can not use my temperature probe on my RH Designs ProcessMaster-II. I made a handy funnel from household goodies, just need to make a pump to blow off the lid, lots of good tips for that on here and APUG......

[polyglot]

Blowing off the lid is a tricky proposition - it can fly off and break itself or you.

Better to fill (completely!) the tank with water, wrap your hand around the cog and then blow into it. Because it's full of water, it doesn't store any energy when pressurised with your lungs and the top just slides off. If you don't fill it with water, it will bruise your nose badly (ask me how I know...).

[Kodachrome25]

I picked up a handy device from Lowes Hardware called a "Plunge-it" for $9.95.

http://www.amazon.com/Cobra-Products-300-Plung-It-Clearing/dp/B000MRGWOY

It is basically an air pump to fix clogged drains, it comes with two rubber attachments that screw on the tip of the plunger. I trimmed the smaller of the two attachements so it would fit into the Expert drum. I then filled the drum with water, put it in the sink and used the plunge-it to release the lid with no drama. The first pump breaks it loose, the second one for full release. Just pay attention to which side is the highest after the first pump as that is where the water will sort of squirt out on the second pump.

Ten bucks, works like a charm...

[Kodachrome25]

So I did another run of 7 sheets, but this time I dragged out my never used CPP2 out of storage. Again, the film came out great, super clean with great tonality. I did have an issue with the cog skipping way too many teeth on the clockwise rotation. I used 1 liter of chemistry and kept the bath height to about 4mm so it really surprised me, I got maybe half a rotation and lots of gear grinding noise, I had to help spin it to keep it from grinding. I had the motor set on 4 as recommended by Jobo.

Both my CPP2 and the lift are the pre-22,000 version with the white clips, all in mint condition, so I am not sure why it could not handle 1,000 ML of chemistry in the 3010.

After I was done with the film, I did a test run of 600ML and it did fine so maybe that is the ticket since Jobo calls for 500ML for ten sheets in the 3010.

[vinny]

You don't need the extra stress of a liter on the motor either. You can always do 500ml for half the dev time and 500ml for the second hald if you are worried about exhausted developer (pmk, rodinal).

[kbesios]

Although a Jobo might be the most proper solution for Rollei IR, I am having great and consistent results developing it with the MOD54. First time the sheets went out of the holder (as expected with such a thin sheet), but then I used scrap 4x5 sheets to hold my Rollei undeveloped sheets and it works great. When you take out the sheets after fixing it looks like a real mess, but after washing them in a tray, they are just fine. Of course I only develop two of them each time to be certain of consistent results. It still requires 1 lt per two sheets, but with Rodinal at 1:25 is an expense I am willing to take without investing on a more expensive development system. I don't shoot to many Rollei IR, so this method works fine for my needs.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I have a few of these (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Color-by-Beseler-Motor-Base-Model-8921-with-Two-Ilford-Cibachrome-Color-Drums-/161014009833?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&) and picked them up for less than the linked item.

Another here. (www.ebay.com/itm/BESELER-COLOR-FILM-DEVELOPING-PROCESSOR-MOTOR-BASE-AND-DRUM-LOT-8921-/290903733694)

The film goes in emulsion-side-up, held to the periphery by internal ridges. Four sheets per tank. Very efficient use of chemistry.

They do sheet film very nicely. The roller action is eccentric for good agitation mixing.
I place it on the counter, in an 11x14" tray to contain the occasional leak or spill.

[AlexGard]

I would be interested to hear if anyone at all has had success with this film in a mod54, particularly if using some scrap sheets as backing for rigidity has worked...