Drying HUGE fibre prints

[Bodforce5]

Hi Everyone,

I am looking for a solution to a problem I have: what is the best way to dry a fiber print that is anywhere from a 30x40" up to 5x7'.
I've been told hanging it will cause a distortion in the image at this size, so it must be dried flat. Is this true? Can I hang it dry initially and then place on a surface to finish drying? If so, what surface? 316SS mesh?

Any help with this would be much appreciated.

Thank you

[Bill Burk]

Here are my thoughts though I've never done anything that large... Get a big nylon window screen or screen door. Lay the wet print face up (or you will get mesh pattern embossed on print surface which will look like inkjet). Lean it to drain at first. Then lay out flat.

[vinny]

Squegee, lay on fiberglass window screen in frames mounted on an angle. Image side down. I've never gotten embossed patterns on glossy or matt fiber.

[Bill Burk]

I have gotten screen pattern in one case. But I'll explain what I did and maybe the steps I followed led to my problem: For a while I was drying prints face down on nylon screen. Later, long after they were already dry, I decided to Selenium-tone recent prints in my portfolio. So I immersed the dry prints in KRST 1:20. It is possible the surface of my emulsion had "hardened" into an invisible screen pattern, which then was made visible by different rates of toning.

Maybe this will never happen to you.

[Gudmundur Ingolfsson]

Hang them to dry on a clothsline like a bedsheet with weights on the bottom ! (Preferably inside a house.)

[cdholden]

Hang them to dry on a clothsline like a bedsheet with weights on the bottom ! (Preferably inside a house.)

Easier said than done!
I hang mine after washing, but 5x7 and 8x10 prints are easy. 12x20 prints slip away from the clips unless I clip them just right. I don't even think punching holes would do amy good. Wouldn't hanging anything that big fail under the weight of wet paper unless it's in some sort of frame?

[Jim Jones]

I used to lay up to 11x14 damp prints on a bed in a Navy barracks and cover them with a sheet and blanket. They dried fairly flat. Any lint the emulsion picked up would brush off when dry.

[joselsgil]

Some 20 odd years ago, I dried some 16x20 inch FB prints on my pick-up truck windshield. It was a hot spring day, so the windshield was very hot.

I was printing at school, and it was taking too long to air dry the prints. The lab tech suggested the windshield drying tip. I thought he was pulling my leg, but he suggested I dry a print just to test it out. You just have to make sure the glass is very clean.

I was amazed at how quickly the prints dried and didn't curl up. If a windshield is out of the question. Try using a large piece of glass, such as the type used for desktops.

[Bodforce5]

Some 20 odd years ago, I dried some 16x20 inch FB prints on my pick-up truck windshield. It was a hot spring day, so the windshield was very hot.

I was printing at school, and it was taking too long to air dry the prints. The lab tech suggested the windshield drying tip. I thought he was pulling my leg, but he suggested I dry a print just to test it out. You just have to make sure the glass is very clean.

I was amazed at how quickly the prints dried and didn't curl up. If a windshield is out of the question. Try using a large piece of glass, such as the type used for desktops.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts. Just to clarify, these prints are up to 5x7 ft. Does anyone have any experience drying large (30x40" and above) prints by hanging them? I've seen Clyde Butcher use a similar method on his website but I'm unsure about the effect this has on the image.
Thanks again for everyone's help regarding this.

[Emil Schildt]

I wish I knew how big 7ft is in matric.....

BUT I'd dry them as I always dry my fiberbased papers:

Put them on a big flat surface (Glass is best) - image up.
Squegee the surface water off.

Then you use a special tape.. (And here I have the problem, that I have NO idea what that is called in english..). A tape made of paper - comes in big rolls. tape is dry until you put the glue in contact with water.
Make this glue wet - but not soaking wet. And only the tape side!
Then tape the image down with this tape. Make sure it is in good contact (no air pockets) with both the paper and the glass.
Use about 1 cm (or in this case maybe more due to the size) of the photopaper to give good contact.
Leave this to dry. Leave it horizontally which makes the drying it safer..

This tape is looking so fragile and thin, but it is really strong and holds papers (thick ones too) in place without problems. (I have only tried up to 20x24" but suspect it will work with larger sizes too - why not..)

I'll see if I can find a link to the tape type I am referring to.

EDIT:
image added.
It comes in brown or white (I have the feeling the brown is strongest)

This drying method is great, as it gives the surface such a nice glow. And I always keep the tape on the border after drying, as it gives strength to the paper, and you also will have a place to hold the image without damaging it...

[Doremus Scudder]

I assume you are using the roll-reroll technique for processing such large prints. If so, draining is really important to reduce the water weight in the print before drying. If you have a large enough flat surface to lay out the prints and squeegee them (truck windshield wipers), I would do that. If not, then let them drip loosely rolled up and in a vertical position for a while.

For drying, I would recommend (in order of preference) appropriately-sized screens or mesh (nylon, not metal!) in frames (you can get a screen shop to make them up, or do-it-yourself at most big-box hardware stores). Lay the prints flat or slightly tilted and face-up if you tone. For some reason, toning makes my prints susceptible to screen marks. With prints that size and the accompanying investment in time and expense, you just don't want to take that chance.

Next, you could use tightly stretched linen or cotton sheets of the appropriate size or, for that matter, any inert type of netting, even fairly coarse (a safety net might work just great, you don't need fine mesh, even a mesh with a six-inch opening would likely work fine). Again, lay the prints flat or slightly tilted and face up. The trick here would be to minimize the bowing.

Hanging prints by the corners would be my last choice, just because of the risk of tearing, distorting the paper and the ever-present risk of the print letting go from whatever clips you have holding them and ending up on the floor.

However, if you could come up with a system where you draped the prints over a curved surface or the like with both sides hanging down (maybe a large paper roll or the like), then that might work well. It would have no clips to deal with and the hanging surface of the print would be divided into less than half, meaning less chance of damage and no chance of the print falling to the ground. I would imaging that the curling could be a problem, though...

How are you planning on transporting/storing such large prints. If you roll them up, you are likely to get curl that will be difficult to deal with later. If flat, than you need some boxes on steroids! Maybe between sheets of masonite or the like to prevent damage...

Hope this helps some.

Doremus

[rich caramadre]

I've witnessed hanging a 4x6 fiber print to dry. You need a taunt wire and good clip that will hold the heavy wet print. Also the clips need to be able to slide. When the print dries it will shrink a little. If the clips can't slide the print may tear. That's why your wire needs to be good and taunt. That's the way Clyde Butcher does it and hes been doing it for a long time with success.
Rich

[bob carnie]

I use very large screens 48 inch by 96 inch

If push came to shove I would also hang the prints back to back .. they dry flatter that way.

We have a very large plexi in the wet room to squeegie the prints before drying...

[Bodforce5]

I assume you are using the roll-reroll technique for processing such large prints. If so, draining is really important to reduce the water weight in the print before drying. If you have a large enough flat surface to lay out the prints and squeegee them (truck windshield wipers), I would do that. If not, then let them drip loosely rolled up and in a vertical position for a while.

For drying, I would recommend (in order of preference) appropriately-sized screens or mesh (nylon, not metal!) in frames (you can get a screen shop to make them up, or do-it-yourself at most big-box hardware stores). Lay the prints flat or slightly tilted and face-up if you tone. For some reason, toning makes my prints susceptible to screen marks. With prints that size and the accompanying investment in time and expense, you just don't want to take that chance.

Next, you could use tightly stretched linen or cotton sheets of the appropriate size or, for that matter, any inert type of netting, even fairly coarse (a safety net might work just great, you don't need fine mesh, even a mesh with a six-inch opening would likely work fine). Again, lay the prints flat or slightly tilted and face up. The trick here would be to minimize the bowing.

Hanging prints by the corners would be my last choice, just because of the risk of tearing, distorting the paper and the ever-present risk of the print letting go from whatever clips you have holding them and ending up on the floor.

However, if you could come up with a system where you draped the prints over a curved surface or the like with both sides hanging down (maybe a large paper roll or the like), then that might work well. It would have no clips to deal with and the hanging surface of the print would be divided into less than half, meaning less chance of damage and no chance of the print falling to the ground. I would imaging that the curling could be a problem, though...

How are you planning on transporting/storing such large prints. If you roll them up, you are likely to get curl that will be difficult to deal with later. If flat, than you need some boxes on steroids! Maybe between sheets of masonite or the like to prevent damage...

Hope this helps some.

Doremus

Thanks Doremus,
We're actually process the sheets in a massive purpose built sink that will accommodate such large prints, so we don't need to roll-reroll. I was curious to now why you warned me off using metal to dry the print?
Thanks

[Bodforce5]

I wish I knew how big 7ft is in matric.....

BUT I'd dry them as I always dry my fiberbased papers:

Put them on a big flat surface (Glass is best) - image up.
Squegee the surface water off.

Then you use a special tape.. (And here I have the problem, that I have NO idea what that is called in english..). A tape made of paper - comes in big rolls. tape is dry until you put the glue in contact with water.
Make this glue wet - but not soaking wet. And only the tape side!
Then tape the image down with this tape. Make sure it is in good contact (no air pockets) with both the paper and the glass.
Use about 1 cm (or in this case maybe more due to the size) of the photopaper to give good contact.
Leave this to dry. Leave it horizontally which makes the drying it safer..

This tape is looking so fragile and thin, but it is really strong and holds papers (thick ones too) in place without problems. (I have only tried up to 20x24" but suspect it will work with larger sizes too - why not..)

I'll see if I can find a link to the tape type I am referring to.

EDIT:
image added.
It comes in brown or white (I have the feeling the brown is strongest)

This drying method is great, as it gives the surface such a nice glow. And I always keep the tape on the border after drying, as it gives strength to the paper, and you also will have a place to hold the image without damaging it...

Thanks very much for your suggestion. 7ft is around 213.5cm, if this helps.
We're not too concerned to keeping the print flat while drying as we have an industrial heat press to flatten the print after the drying stage. We'd really like to know the pros and cons associated with hang such large prints and what materials (incl. metal) are suitable to dry on.
Thanks again

[Bodforce5]

I use very large screens 48 inch by 96 inch

If push came to shove I would also hang the prints back to back .. they dry flatter that way.

We have a very large plexi in the wet room to squeegie the prints before drying...

Thanks Bob,
What are your screens made from? Nylon mesh?

[imagedowser]

Great thread.... just beginning to think through this subject myself and here it all is..... Gandolfi continues to amaze and the taught wire with strong clips and... and.... Thank you everyone.

[vinny]

Fiberglass screen dude.

[bob carnie]

Yes , we buy the stuff in very large rolls and wrap it around a custom brace we made in our frame shop using home depot strapping and bracing ,, I stack about 6 of them on top of each other when we are busy and put 2x4 cut blocks to space them out and give air.
we put our prints face down and our humidity is controlled year round around 50%

[bob carnie]

We also have a very large hot press to flatten out or mount the prints as it sounds like you do.

[Doremus Scudder]

Metal screening will rust quickly once a wet print it placed on it! That leaves nasty marks on your prints. Unless you have stainless steel, stay away from putting wet prints on metal mesh, screening, etc.

Best,

Doremus

[bob carnie]

Our mesh is some kind of black nylon, few thousand Plus prints face down with no issues.... but it is interesting about how you found issues of screen marks face down only with toned prints.
I am watching for this as there are some times we do have to rewash out screen marks (yes the do go out) and I do tone most of my prints .
When we are doing lambda fibres we usually print one day and tone later and we have never had any issues on the untoned prints.


Metal screening will rust quickly once a wet print it placed on it! That leaves nasty marks on your prints. Unless you have stainless steel, stay away from putting wet prints on metal mesh, screening, etc.

Best,

Doremus

[Bill Burk]

Our mesh is some kind of black nylon, few thousand Plus prints face down with no issues.... but it is interesting about how you found issues of screen marks face down only with toned prints...

Mine is also a black nylon, actually an ultralight bug-netting. One step I always skip (I don't have an appropriate flat clean surface) is squeegeeing. So the sopping wet prints went face-down. This could have contributed to the problem I had, and could explain why you'll never have the problem.

[Doremus Scudder]

Bob,

I'm sure you've dried a whole lot more prints than I have :rolleyes:. However, in my experience with drying selenium-toned prints face-down on nylon screens, there has often been a screen-pattern remnant of reduced density. This has not washed out. Not only was the density reduced, but there was a reddish color at the interface of the areas of reduced density and the "normal" areas that is characteristic of selenium toning. I have had this happen with prints that have been tested for both residual silver and hypo and on screens that were freshly washed and rinsed, so I have ruled out contamination/inadequate processing. Still, I have no idea what causes this. Now I just dry face-up and don't worry about it. I'd be curious to know what the cause was, however.

Best,

Doremus


P.S: Sorry for the hijack

[bob carnie]

There may be an issue with not enough squegge or humidity.. I have my darkroom humidity controlled and have not seen this issue as problem
I will admit that every so often I will see very faint impressions but rewashing takes it out.


Bob,

I'm sure you've dried a whole lot more prints than I have :rolleyes:. However, in my experience with drying selenium-toned prints face-down on nylon screens, there has often been a screen-pattern remnant of reduced density. This has not washed out. Not only was the density reduced, but there was a reddish color at the interface of the areas of reduced density and the "normal" areas that is characteristic of selenium toning. I have had this happen with prints that have been tested for both residual silver and hypo and on screens that were freshly washed and rinsed, so I have ruled out contamination/inadequate processing. Still, I have no idea what causes this. Now I just dry face-up and don't worry about it. I'd be curious to know what the cause was, however.

Best,

Doremus


P.S: Sorry for the hijack

[Ron McElroy]

Bob,

I'm sure you've dried a whole lot more prints than I have :rolleyes:. However, in my experience with drying selenium-toned prints face-down on nylon screens, there has often been a screen-pattern remnant of reduced density. This has not washed out. Not only was the density reduced, but there was a reddish color at the interface of the areas of reduced density and the "normal" areas that is characteristic of selenium toning. I have had this happen with prints that have been tested for both residual silver and hypo and on screens that were freshly washed and rinsed, so I have ruled out contamination/inadequate processing. Still, I have no idea what causes this. Now I just dry face-up and don't worry about it. I'd be curious to know what the cause was, however.

Best,

Doremus


P.S: Sorry for the hijack

I dry prints face up because of this same problem. I usually print one day, or several different days if my time is limited, and tone only on a different day. I can not see the screen pattern in the dry untoned print, but once in the toner it reveals itself. My darkroom is in the basement so its more humid than many. Also for most of the year the incoming water temps is 75-80F so all of this might contribute to my problem.

[RW Hawkins]

For my 4x5 ft prints I have been drying as Clyde Butcher seems to do by hanging them on moveable clips. However, I noticed the paper definitely gets stressed, and has unusual waves and bends (because I don't press or drymount). Next run I'm going to try and dry on a screen.

[Bill Burk]

There may be an issue with not enough squegge or humidity.. I have my darkroom humidity controlled and have not seen this issue as problem
I will admit that every so often I will see very faint impressions but rewashing takes it out.

True, I use no squeegee. Also my humidity is controlled... by the Pacific Ocean a couple blocks away...

[Drew Wiley]

Guess I'm lucky because the company where I work has a major door division. So I can pick
up free nylon slider panels made for big patio doors when some warranty issue has caused
replacement of a big door like that. But it would be easy enough to just order one, or to
make your own buying a roll of nylon mesh and stapling it to a wood frame. I squeegee the
prints on a large melamine-coated MDF panel with the edges sealed. Handling is done by
a tool balancer at appropriate tension, hanging a long aluminum bar with a row of padded
plastic "chip clips" attached to it - yeah, those goofy potatoe ship bag things - they work
great for suspending the print!

[ROL]

I have gotten screen pattern in one case. But I'll explain what I did and maybe the steps I followed led to my problem: For a while I was drying prints face down on nylon screen. Later, long after they were already dry, I decided to Selenium-tone recent prints in my portfolio. So I immersed the dry prints in KRST 1:20. It is possible the surface of my emulsion had "hardened" into an invisible screen pattern, which then was made visible by different rates of toning.

Maybe this will never happen to you.

It happens to me (30x40) occasionally, and unpredictably with various roll papers, squeegee-ed or not. Better to lay, and laying is always the challenge (sorry if anyone find this "rude"), large prints face up on large nylon screens and sponge excess water off carefully.

[Brian Ellis]

I wish I knew how big 7ft is in matric......

http://www.worldwidemetric.com/measurements.html