The exact dimensions of the rectangular 4x5' film area that gets exposed?

[l2oBiN]

I am interested in drawing some gridlines on my 4x5' ground glass. I would like to know the rectangular dimension of the 4x5' film that actually gets exposed (i.e. area that is not blocked by film holder guides/flap) and how they relate to the orientation and placement on the whole 4x5' film sheet. Does this vary with different film holders? Ie. I would like to know the exact rectangular dimension I should be composing to to include everything on the film.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

To the best of my knowledge, the area of film which is actually exposed in classical 4x5" film holders is about 6 mm (1/4") smaller than the total film size
Hence, allow something like 94 x 120 mm for a 4x5" film (4x5" = 101.6 x 127 in theory, but the actual film support area can be a bit smaller)
On the film side corresponding to the small flap you have to lift to slide the film inside the holder, with certain holders, the image is exposed almost as wide as the film support itself, this gives a kind of a "signature" to images taken with a 4x5" camera ;)

The dimensions of 94x120 mm might depend on the film holder brand, but probably not more than by one millimeter.

P.S. simply check with a ruler on your next sheet of exposed & processed film ;-)

[Robert Hall]

This might be a little different with different brands of film holders. I would measure it and note that the film may have a few microns of movement within the film holder as well.

[Oren Grad]

Schneider says the image area is nominally 96x120mm. But in practice it can vary slightly across holder types. So what Emmanuel said: measure one of your processed sheets.

A different issue: in many cameras, there's a bit of play in where the holder is seated when you insert it. Where that is true, there is no assurance that where the film window sits will exactly match where you've scribed the lines on your GG. If that is true of your camera and holders, and if you must have as close a match as possible, you may need to do some trial-and-error measurement and shimming to get your camera set up exactly how you want it.

[Oren Grad]

I would measure it and note that the film may have a few microns of movement within the film holder as well.

If the concern is to get on film exactly what is in the scribed area on the GG, this doesn't matter - all that matters is that the opening in the holder be aligned with the marked area on the GG.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

What follows won't be of any help to any 4x5" user, but It happens that I have, handy, a 9x12 Linhof film holder, a model very simliar to a Fidely holder. The actual image area is 84x114 mm (i.e. 6 mm less than the nominal film size) with a band of 21mm long being totally exposed across the whole film width, on the holder side where the film slides in for loading.

The exact registration of the film gate with respect to the optics is something that was addressed by Schneider with their system of high-precision 4x5" holders. If I remember well, the price of the system was about ... an arm & leg, so my understanding was that most 4x5" users, eventually, decided that the good 'ol' Fideltiy holder was exactly what they needed ;)

To me the fact the the film can be somewhat "floating" inside the holder, plus the erratic placement of the holder itself at the back of the camera, has no real consequence, except for very precise framing, and of course for people who asked Schneider to develop their precision film holder sysem; and, may be, this fuzziness is a real nuisance for some eccentrics I know personnally, doing tri-color images from 3 sheets of B&W film.
When scanning their 3 films, they can have all possible effects of mis-registration between their 3 images, parasitic translations AND rotations, rotations being more tricky to compensate digitally ... rollfilm holders being potentially less annoying since you simply have to advance film between the 3 images, without taking the roll holder off the camera: in principle, parasitic rotations should be minimal in this approach ...

[ic-racer]

If I measure mine and post it will that help you if we don't use the same brand film holder? Can you just measure your own?

[Vaughn]

An idea...

Slip a piece of white paper into a film holder, put the holder in the camera back, remove the camera back from the camera, and then mark the corners on the GG (on the side that normally faces the lens) where you can see the white of the paper that is in the holder. Use these dots to draw temporay lines on the back side of the GG (the side you look at when composing).

Test the accuracy of the lines by photographing a grid pattern and making sure that what is on the negative matches exactly as you framed the grid pattern image on the GG.

If you have different brands/models of film holders, you can load white paper in them to double check how they line up to each other by repeating the first part above.

[rdenney]

I have a Lisco 4x5 holder on my desk, and it is 3.83" (97mm) by 4.75" (121mm).

In my Sinar back, the edge running along the insertion slot is aligned with the edge of the frame opening, but the frame opening is 1 or 2mm more open on the other three edges. The Lisco holder has about 1mm of slop. The Sinar ground-glass frame is 3.69" (94mm) by 4.70" (119.5mm).

If you drew all these rectangles on top of each other, they would align at the insertion edge.

Your camera will be different.

If I needed frame-edge precision, I would draw a frame slightly in from the edges (maybe 2mm) and crop to that frame line. That will accommodate all the variability between holders and holder positioning slop.

Rick "ruler in hand" Denney

[IanG]

In the past two or three years I've bought quite a few more 5x4 DDS and I've noticed quite a significant difference with some of the older ones. I discovered that the early Graflex & MPP film holders are actually plate holders with film inserts some glued in others riveted in, these have a smaller image area than more modern holders.

Ian

[timparkin]

I drum scan a lot of film and the majority of it is pretty close to 96mm x 120mm (exactly so for modern fidelity's that I own)

[Jim Jones]

The 1951 ASA minimum diminsions are 3.636 x 4.686 inches with no maximum specified, but that proves nothing about what our holder diminsions are.

[Dan Henderson]

Of more concern to me than exactly where the film sits in relation to the ground glass is the fact that the glass-type Omega negative holder that I use is slightly smaller than the exposed area of film. I have had to learn to compose a bit less tightly to accomodate.

[Bill Burk]

My Grafmatic septums give me 3.75 inches x 4.75 image area and I use a filed negative carrier that gives me all of that on my prints. (But if you consider the frame number wheel encroaches some of the image the usable long dimension is close to 4.686 inches).

[Kuzano]

I am interested in drawing some gridlines on my 4x5' ground glass. I would like to know the rectangular dimension of the 4x5' film that actually gets exposed (i.e. area that is not blocked by film holder guides/flap) and how they relate to the orientation and placement on the whole 4x5' film sheet. Does this vary with different film holders? Ie. I would like to know the exact rectangular dimension I should be composing to to include everything on the film.

First, from all the posts you have raised here, and my own experience, your first chore will be to create "repeatable consistency" in your film holder and viewing system.

To me, that means you may have to pick a film holder of one type, and duplicate it brand for brand, and vintage for vintage. The best way to do that would be to pick a desired holder and stick to it for all your shooting. For instance pick on brand and buy ten boxes of pairs up front.

Secondly insert them in the camera. I don't think they slide around as much as you've been advised here. The ridge for locating/registering the holders in position will be consistent on the camera and consistent on the holders because of the matching of type, brand and purchase date of the holders.

You should then end up with 20 DDS holders, unless you go to another holder system, that are identical in size of area of film exposed, and location in the back of the camera.

Then take a sheet of film (exposed, or negative shot) and slide it into one side of one of the holders. Then take a sharpie (fine point) and run it around the inside of the holder opening. Before you do this, slide the sheet of film to one side and one end, scribe a line, then move the film to the other end and other side of the holder, and scribe another line. Frankly, I don't think there is as much movement within the holder as has been mentioned here, but at least you will have a tolerance measurement. In fact, if you do this first on one holder and find there is much tolerance, then your expectation for this type of system is unrealistic. You should just drop the idea, load film, go ahead and use a grid, but go shooting and enjoy yourself.

If the tolerance is livable, the go ahead and create your grid on the ground glass, or on a thin sheet of overlay behind the ground glass.

Just remember, you will be limited to the holder system you design the system around. If you change to other types of holders, repeat this exercise again with the change, but if you go to multiple holders, you will need to match the holders for type, brand and consistently same purchase date.

Good luck.

Waste of time in my book. This is the kind of exercise I would dream up if I were afraid to load up some film and go shooting.

Not the grid.. the grid is a good idea. Exacting placement and the limitations already listed is where the waste of time comes in. Placement of the grid and not worrying about exact duplicate position will not negatively affect your images.

[l2oBiN]

Guys, Thank you very much for all the wonderful information. I am indeed creating a gridded pattern on which I just wanted to have a rough idea what I should be composing to.. the whole glass or a rectangle within it... I have marked up a 94x120mm square as a guide to this and printed it out on a sheet of transparency. So this should be attached on the back of the ground glass? Not sandwiched in between the fresnel and gg?

[vinny]

Do you think this is going to improve your work?
Sounds like a pain in the ass, especially adding another layer of material between you and the image on the ground glass.

[l2oBiN]

Vinny,

I just like having a grid on my gg... I find it helpful in compositing images...



Do you think this is going to improve your work?
Sounds like a pain in the ass, especially adding another layer of material between you and the image on the ground glass.

[Jim Jones]

If you add a grid to a properly functioning ground glass and fresnel, it should be closest to the eye, not in the optical path between lens and focusing surface. I prefer lightly scribing a grid on the ground glass with something like a steel needle. This is less obtrusive than most printed grids.

[Drew Bedo]

I have heard the term "pin-regestration" in the past used in the context of overlaying negs in printing or in animation. ArePin-Regestratinn film holders what the OP should be looking for?

Am I confusing the term with something else?

[graywolf]

Yes, if absolute precision is needed, what he wants are pin-registered vacuum film holders. Linhof used to make them (or at least sold them with their name on them) they had a little battery powered vacuum pump. However, pin registration requires that 3 precision holes be punched into the film. Linhof also sold the punch to do that. Needless to say all that stuff was not cheap; on the other hand, if you could find them used, they probably would be cheap, who else would want them?

FWIW, my Graphic Riteway holders have a 96mm x 122mm opening, which is 5mm less than the nominal size of the 4x5 sheet of film.

[Steve Smith]

FWIW, my Graphic Riteway holders have a 96mm x 122mm opening, which is 5mm less than the nominal size of the 4x5 sheet of film.


The nominal size of the film is smaller than its stated size in inches. This was the glass plate size. The film was slightly smaller to allow it to be placed in a sheet metal insert to be used in glass plate holders.


Steve.

[Kuzano]

The important issue with regard to which item to place first in the stack... Fresnel, GG, and Grid... is whether the etched or focus side of the GG matches the depth of the film surface when it is in the holder. Anything which displaced the GG further away from the lens may result in a film plane in the holder being closer to the lens than the focus surface of the GG. That would put the shot out of focus when snapped, because the film would not match the distance that focus was viewed. That may also raise a question about the thickness of the Fresnel and whether it's thickness was accounted for in the distance of the GG from the lens, again relative to your film depth in the holder.

It's ultimately important that the GG focus surface distance from the lens is matched identically by the film plane depth of the holder if you catch my drift. In any event, it pays to check these surface distances if a Fresnel or a Grid sheet have been added to the camera. Most holders have a consistent depth from the holder outer surface to the film plane. Any time a GG or other masks, fresnels and such are added to the camera, one must make sure the focus surface (ground surface of the GG ends up in the corresponding position to the depth of the holder film plane that is going to replace it to make the shot.

[Pawlowski6132]

Duh. Just measure a developed negative.

[Steve Smith]

Duh. Just measure a developed negative.

Or the aperture in the film holder.


Steve.

[Lynn Jones]

The film size according to ASA/ISO is 4" +/- 2/64th" by 5" +/- 2/64th". Regular films are about .007" and thin base is about .0045" thickness. Critical photographers who asked me in my Calumet days, I would customize the ground glass position for thick base, thin base, half way in between!

Since I was heavily involved with Calumet CC's and C1, all of the Cambos, Toyos, Galvins, and several others, it was always good business to tell our customers that you can never use a full 4x5 (because it isn't necessarily there to begin with), the film holders use a bit of the film, film hangers prevent full use of whatever film you have, finally I always wrote in magazines and/or the about 4 dozen different catalogs that I have produced that you don't want to try to use more than 3 3/4" x 4 3/4" and even that is chancy.

Lynn