Ebay extends refund period for buyers

[goamules]

Well it's been a month since I've sold something and FeeBay, and with baited breath I uploaded with TurboLister waiting for their newest rule change to be discovered.
Error! You must increase the time allowed for refunds to comply with our policy!

Well, isn't that nice, my usual 3 day inspection period (used since 1998) is not good enough for FeeBay now, they have to let a buyer fondle it for a while longer! Hmmmm....wonder how long? My choices are 3 days...that didn't work. I'll up it to 7 days....nope, that didn't work, got the same vague error. Let's try a full 2 weeks? Yep! I win! I'm allowed to upload my 50 year old lens to let someone with no English language skills buy it, then make a complaint about something they don't understand. And if they decided it needs to be CLA'd, they can complain and Paypal will use MY funds to pay for it!

Rant over.

[BrianShaw]

Did you try 10 days?

[darr]

Do not offer refunds period.

[Leigh]

That's what you get for using evilpay. Stop using it.

Sell your stuff here or on APUG and you won't have a problem.

- Leigh

[Michael Graves]

Actually, that would be "bated breath". Baited breath would be wormy breath.

[goamules]

Actually, that would be "bated breath". Baited breath would be wormy breath.

Well thank you Proffessor Graves!

Leigh, I had it on here, it's the Angenieux F.95 micro 4/3 lens....not enough tiny shooters here. And as much as I hate Ebay and giving them all their fees, you can make more on a lot of items there. Price you pay I guess.

[Roger Cole]

3 days is too short. Depending when an item arrives during my work week I may have zero chance to check it out within three days. 10 is actually reasonable, if you are going to offer refunds at all.

I don't know as I long ago quit selling on eBay and only buy, but can you say "no refunds" and then offer one at your discretion? That could be a way around a period longer than you're comfortable with. The scenario you describe is another possible problem.

[goamules]

Good point, I was being a little too conservative with 3 days, but I always figured when you get an item, you look at it and make sure it wasn't broken or misrepresented.
Yes, at least in the past you could say "as is, no refunds" in the text. I'm not sure if Ebay officially let's you do that in their listing tool. Probably you always have to offer refunds, even if it's a bucket of old horseshoes!

[Roger Cole]

Oh I will open it and visually check it, but some things just aren't apparent until you get to check a little closer. A week is adequate. 10 days is better. But I too would hate someone who really doesn't even know what he was buying trying to return it two weeks later after realizing it wasn't what he mistakenly thought. That would have to be annoying.

[BrianShaw]

Buyers remorse stinks... just like when a buyer breaks the goods then says it broke in shipping.

[J. Fada]

Just be honest with your description and have a policy of no refunds. I actually stated for a long time in my auctions that "if you are a pain to deal with or if you are going to have remorse please don't bid....." but got an email from ebay stating that I could not use any language in my conditions that discouraged bidding! Whatever.

If I am going to sell something I typically weigh the value of the item versus how much of a pain it is to put something on ebay. I only use ebay if it will bring significantly more. I prefer to sell things through forums but sometimes with odd items there is no choice but to go with evilbay.

[CP Goerz]

No matter how honest you are, no matter if you put NO RETURNS in the description, no matter you said AS IS...all a buyer needs to say is NOT AS DESCRIBED.


The way around this is not to have a description and don't reply to any requests then you can never be held for a return because of a scuff of 4mm on the base of the Deardorff/Wisner/Whatever that 'wasn't in the description'.

[eddie]

What is the big deal?

I know having to cough up some funds u thought u had sucks but it is no big deal. Sell it again.

I accept returns. No big f'ing deal really! I give FULL refunds only and give no partial refunds. ( I have yet to deal with the new rule about repairs. I would still just have them send it back)

I don't get worked up about returns. I get my stuff back they get their money. What is the big deal?

[Jeff Dexheimer]

I don't understand the big deal. I expect a return policy whenever I buy something whether it be from a local store, a Target or Wallymart or an ebay seller. A return policy tells me the seller is confident in what they are selling and they will stand behind it. I have also been selling on ebay for ten years and have always offered a 7 day return policy. In ten years I have not had a single return. Granted I am not selling in high volume, but I find that if I am accurate in my description, a return policy is nothing more that a formality.

Additionally, It makes no sense to gripe about ebay's policy. If you don't like it, don't use it.

[photobymike]

I have been on the other side of this discussion as a buyer. I did buy a camera lens for canon FD that was advertised as excellent condition and no returns. When i received the lens the aperture did not work... showed signs that it had been worked on.. major scoring from a split wrench, plus when you shook the lens it sounded like all the lenses were loose inside.... it was a real piece of crap that a seller tried to pass off on me...it was only 30 dollars but it was the principle of the matter. I actually talked to the seller on the phone... very bad english made it impossible to talk with him and work it out.... soo i made a complaint to paypal. There was a bad seller on Ebay that actually sold here ... it was the users that made him go away..That was a good thing......... So there are bad sellers out there who should consider maybe that mowing lawns would be better way to make money. I am pretty much getting out of the camera reseller biz because of the garbage out there. I make more money taking pictures anyway.

[CP Goerz]

'I don't get worked up about returns. I get my stuff back they get their money. What is the big deal?'


Because you pay shipping one way and in some cases its a pretty good %, if you haven't had any returns then great...wait till you get the buyer like I had recently who bought an item, that I described as not working properly, and is returning it because...its not working properly.


Of course not ALL buyers are like this otherwise I wouldn't bother but like all aspects of human endeavor its the one bad apple that...ahh forget it.

[BrianShaw]

What is the big deal?

... What is the big deal?

From both a buyer and seller perspective, many people feel their time is being wasted and they aren't getting "full satisfaction" despite being legally/ethically "made whole".

[BrianShaw]

p.s. But, yes... in general... "what's the big deal?"

[eddie]

p.s. But, yes... in general... "what's the big deal?"

hey, i have heard that before....

i took a return from europe on some waterhouse stops.....i ate the $36 shipping. the stops sold for about $125. a pretty big percentage. it sucked a bit but as a whole what is $36? 10 cents per day for a year?

btw i never even talked about who was going to pay. he sent e m back and i refunded all his monies. no big deal. i bet i could have "forced" him to pay the shipping.....but:

i took the return cause i said i would. no problem. i am sure i still have him as a potential buyer. good will still intact. i am sure he says positive things about me. in the end i bet i win far more than the $36 i lost that day.....

[Old-N-Feeble]

Does the seller still have the option of a return with full refund or will eBay just do the partial as they see fit?

[goamules]

My problem, or "the big deal" is that Ebay is forcing their policies to more and more encourage, solicit, expect people to return, complain, hold funds, etc.

No, it's not happened to me much at all in 14 years of selling on Ebay. What I don't want is for the likelihood to increase.

Yes, I would and do return anything for any reason. In my auctions I say, "your satisfaction is my goal, contact me if you have concerns or want to discuss a full refund." I've just seen a lot of good sellers, people I have bought from, suddenly get slammed with a bad feedback after years of 100% good. Does a poor feedback score affect future sales? Is paying shipping for a confused or clueless buyer part of business? Yes and yes. But Ebay is making sellers bend over backwards. A 14 day inspection for a 100 year old, used antique? The above post about expecting the ability do a return anywhere you buy, like at Walmart, doesn't apply. Walmart doesn't sell antique, used items. Goodwill does, and you get no returns there - walk out the door with it and it's yours.

CASE STUDY: I bought some mint looking wooden plate holders on ebay recently. The seller knew nothing, but had good pictures and was nice and responsive. I bought them, they arrived, I took a look and set them aside. They looked great, for 100 year old holders. A couple weeks later I picked one up by grabbing the center, and the darkslide cracked. Actually it broke into 5 pieces like eggshell. I chalked it up to "oh well, I better be more careful with the others." Another buyer might whine and complain and try to get a refund. See my point about Ebay making it too easy for buyers to get new manufacturing expectations out of used antiques?

[CP Goerz]

' i bet i could have "forced" him to pay the shipping.....but:'


....You don't have that option, you have to eat the shipping one way no matter what.



'Does the seller still have the option of a return with full refund or will eBay just do the partial as they see fit?'


As I have read it you have no option other than grab your ankles or rest your palms on your knees. Ebay allows the buyer to return anything for just about any reason that can come under the heading 'not as described'. In addition its at bay's discretion whether to allow a repair to be charged back to your account as well.




I got into it with one of the paypal phone reps a couple of years ago and they told me that ebay were trying to make a 'buying experience' like any other and a payment/return like a 'credit card experience' where you can return anything for any reason. Thats OK if 'you' are the seller who sells brand new- from-the-manufacturer items by the container-load but to hammer a seller who sells almost unique items sometimes over 100 years old? The day you see Walmart/Target selling 12" Goerz Dagors, Deardorffs and 8x10 film then we know we've reached parity.(oops, just read the above post and somewhat repeated).

[Jeff Dexheimer]

I still maintain that there should be a return policy on ebay even for 100 year old antiques. The difference between a Goodwill item and an ebay item is a buyer can look over an item at the goodwill. On so with ebay, no matter how good the pictures were, things are not always apparent until close inspection can be done. If a buyer buys something on ebay and the item is delivered while the buyer is unable to immediately look it over, the buyer needs time.

My case study; I buy an antique Korona 5x7 a few weeks ago. When it arrives I find it is in-fact a 4x5 camera, and worse it's missing several parts. Without a return policy I would have had much more trouble than I did. Even after I returned the item my seller attempted to keep the money I paid for the item.

I know my case falls under buyer protection, however a less extreme case may have fit into return category.

Regardless of this case or that, ebay is for buyers. Sellers on ebay take all of the risk and ebay needs happy buyers. If buyers don't buy on ebay, sellers wont list. If sellers don't list, ebay fails and goes out of business. If ebay keeps buyers there will always be sellers.

Again, I leave it at this; don't like it, don't use it. Its a free market.

[CP Goerz]

If we are going to compare apples to apples then we can have a look at another online site like Goodwill. I don't know too many folk that regularly cruise by camera stores to see what they have and can handle in person, we all buy online so we really can't compare the two. Here is Goodwill Online's return policy....


Each shopgoodwill.com seller is an autonomous Goodwill member organization. Seller return/refund policies may vary from seller-to-seller.

The seller's return policy is posted on each individual item's description page. By placing a bid, you are acknowledging the seller's return policy.

[toolbox]

If we are going to compare apples to apples then we can have a look at another online site like Goodwill. I don't know too many folk that regularly cruise by camera stores to see what they have and can handle in person, we all buy online so we really can't compare the two. Here is Goodwill Online's return policy....


Each shopgoodwill.com seller is an autonomous Goodwill member organization. Seller return/refund policies may vary from seller-to-seller.

The seller's return policy is posted on each individual item's description page. By placing a bid, you are acknowledging the seller's return policy.


I used to frequent the Goodwill site a lot...pretty sure most of them don't take returns and specifically state that it's untested and sold as-is. I've gotten a couple of good deals there, but the crazy thing is most camera gear seems to sell for more than what it would on ebay...it's really weird. Maybe people are convinced that since it's Goodwill, it HAS to be a deal? I don't know. I do know that about 8 years ago I found an old beat up leather case at the local Goodwill for $4.99...hiding inside was a very clean Leica M3 :D. It's all right...you guys can hate me. I've actually hardly used it because Leicas are kind of a pain to load and I hardly ever shoot 35mm. Nice camera though.
Back to ebay...as of right now, you can offer a "no return" policy, in which case you don't have to take it back. You can also list an item as for "parts or repair", in which case they can't return if it doesn't work IIRC...don't know if they can say it was "not as described". As I understand it, the downside to having a no return policy is that it affects how it shows up in searches...priority is given to sellers with the most generous return policy. If you're the only one selling something, it may not matter much if at all I suppose. Calling something parts or repair will scare off everyone but the die hard DIY types, or people willing to take a chance.
On a positive note, today ebay said they would remove the one negative feedback I've had in the past 10 years...a guy in Russia bought a lens from me, I shipped it out, and then it disappeared. Paypal gave him his money back, then he left a negative feedback for me. I'm still out the money and the lens, but at least his negative feedback will disappear. It was $50...these things happen periodically, and I just chock them up to the cost of doing business. I had a rash of returns last year too (I think it was just buyers remorse). Everything sold again to people who were happy to have it (I think I listed them for more money just to help cover it if I remember correctly...)

[Old-N-Feeble]

Once eBay's draconian mandatory 14 day return and forced partial refund are widely known by unscrupulous buyers many will definitely abuse those. Some will exchange worn or broken parts and demand a return. Others will enjoy 2 week "free rentals". Still others will buy something just try so they can decide if they really want it... no loss to them so why not?

If I have the option of a return with full refund vs. a forced partial refund then fine. I'd offer that anyway. But the 14 day inspection period is over the top. I'm perfectly fine with, and would offer, 5 days to give the buyer a chance to inspect, test shoot, and have film processed.

[CP Goerz]

'...as of right now, you can offer a "no return" policy, in which case you don't have to take it back.'

Trust me on this(having fought ebay about it numerous times)...there is NO such thing as 'no return'..period. All a buyer has to say is 'not as described' and they are off to the races returning the item for a full refund and shipping for good measure. Are there bad sellers who lie...of course, are there good sellers who get ripped, you bet.


The new sting in the tail is that Ebay will decide(who knows how) how much you as a seller now have to pay for the repair of the item sold to the buyer who happens to know a guy at a camera repair place willing to make a fake invoice up.



100% agree on the sold prices on Goodwill, what are those folks thinking??? I haven't scored in a Goodwill in ten years of looking! When did you buy the camera, was it before they went online?

[eddie]

No, it's not happened to me much at all in 14 years of selling on Ebay. What I don't want is for the likelihood to increase.



95 percent of what you worry about you have no control over, and can not change. this is with everything in life. worry about it when/if it happens.

again. it is NO BIG DEAL. you get your shit back they get their money.

i still do not see the issue here.




I got into it with one of the paypal phone reps a couple of years ago .

lets stick with apple and apples. what e bays said several years ago is outdated and useless info. lets talk about what they do NOW.



....You don't have that option, you have to eat the shipping one way no matter what.



as i said above....ebay did not force me to refund the shipping...so it was no big deal. i am not mad or overly upset about the whole issue.......AND it ACTUALLY happened to me....unlike most of this thread about theoretical possibilities!

[toolbox]

'...as of right now, you can offer a "no return" policy, in which case you don't have to take it back.'

Trust me on this(having fought ebay about it numerous times)...there is NO such thing as 'no return'..period. All a buyer has to say is 'not as described' and they are off to the races returning the item for a full refund and shipping for good measure. Are there bad sellers who lie...of course, are there good sellers who get ripped, you bet.


The new sting in the tail is that Ebay will decide(who knows how) how much you as a seller now have to pay for the repair of the item sold to the buyer who happens to know a guy at a camera repair place willing to make a fake invoice up.



100% agree on the sold prices on Goodwill, what are those folks thinking??? I haven't scored in a Goodwill in ten years of looking! When did you buy the camera, was it before they went online?

I'll take your word for it...I searched ebay help before, and they said it's up to you to decide if you want to do returns or not. If they open a paypal case for "not as described", there's probably nothing you can do... And there are going to be people who abuse it, no doubt. My own experience has been that most buyers are honest people who are just looking for whatever. I've sold a ton of stuff there...occasionally something goes haywire because someone has to be the turd in the punchbowl, but for the most part people are honest. I guess it's a reflection of what people are like in the rest of society...most are good most of the time, some are bad some of the time.
On Goodwill, I've had a few good deals there, but the Leica was before they went online. These days it would probably end up there and sell for $3000 or something silly. It's probably actually worth somewhere around $800...it's a DS made in 1957 with a 50mm Summerit on it. The vast majority of deals I've gotten there were things like my Bamboo Steamer that was a dollar...love it! Don't love the way it makes the whole neighborhood smell like broccoli though...

[CP Goerz]

'lets stick with apple and apples. what e bays said several years ago is outdated and useless info. lets talk about what they do NOW.'


What they did then is what they do now...have you seen a change in policy I'm unaware of?




'ebay did not force me to refund the shipping.'


But they can, will and have done. Clearly the situation you had was where you and the buyer came to an agreement, ebay wasn't involved. If you disagreed with the buyer and didn't offer the refund what would have happened? I'll tell you so you know for the future...buyer is unhappy with item/opens case with ebay, ebay suggests you refund the buyer, buyer escalates case, paypal puts the funds on hold, two weeks pass and the buyer returns the item and has tracking to prove you got it, refund given.


Where was your 'choice' in there?



I regularly hand out refunds, I don't like it, especially since a number of buyers clearly didn't understand what they were buying but that is just the way it is. The only 'theoretical' I have brought up is the 'repair' issue which isn't widely known or practiced at this point but you can bet that ebay WILL tell buyers that this is another option for them. Besides that the return issue is one I HAVE dealt with numerous times so on that I can speak with experience and not just theoretically.

[Old-N-Feeble]

It would definitely more fair if the "repair facility" must be agreed on by both parties.

[Steven Tribe]

"I took a return from europe on some waterhouse stops....."
What on earth could be wrong with Waterhouse stops. Unless you made them too thick.
Perhaps he was just too lazy/ignorant to work out his aperture diameters and made a tracing of the holes?

[eddie]

"I took a return from europe on some waterhouse stops....."
What on earth could be wrong with Waterhouse stops. Unless you made them too thick.
Perhaps he was just too lazy/ignorant to work out his aperture diameters and made a tracing of the holes?

They are for a dallmeyer 3b. So far they fit 8 out of 9. Who knows. He gave me the serial number but i have forgotten it.

Whatever

[Jody_S]

I wouldn't mind the eBay/Paypal policies if eBay/Paypal actually followed their policies. They don't. They don't review documentation, they won't even bother to read an item's description or look at photos before making a decision; coincidentally, in 100% of cases, that decision favors the buyer. I conclude this is a business decision by eBay, that sellers are expendable and buyers aren't, even if said buyers are con artists.

What we're left with is creating independent means of verifying buyers before shipping items, to identify con artists before you actually mail an item. It's easier to not mail something, wait for a case to be opened, refund the buyer, but 1) you keep your item, and 2) you don't pay for shipping which you'll lose eventually anyways. I've had numerous China sellers pull this on me, for whatever reason (purely economic, not fraud-related): the China seller doesn't have in stock, can no longer get an item for $x dollars, or whatever.... you pay your money, wait 20 or 30 days, no item. You claim with paypal and get an instant refund, but you can't leave feedback on the transaction.

I say, if eBay won't protect sellers, sellers have to protect themselves. I don't mean the China 'just don't ship it if it's too expensive' model, I mean reporting deadbeat buyers on a separate forum and just quietly refusing to ship to said buyers. No you can't ferret out bad buyers by filtering for country; there are deadbeats and con artists everywhere. Maybe someday eBay will get a clue and realize independent sellers of curios/collectibles are a substantial part of their business, but I think they assume every seller of an 'antique lens' is a picker who found said lens at a yard sale and doesn't even know what the item is much less what it's worth.

[neil poulsen]

I have a no return policy. But, if a buyer complained for a legitimate reason, I would permit a return. And maybe with EBay, I might not have a choice.

I've been on both ends, and as a buyer, EBay came to my rescue. I bought lens elements where the rim had been dented. It was not disclosed. I got my money back plus shipping. Nor did I have to pay return shipping to the seller. EBay provided the label and billed the seller.

[Corran]

I wouldn't mind the eBay/Paypal policies if eBay/Paypal actually followed their policies. They don't. They don't review documentation, they won't even bother to read an item's description or look at photos before making a decision; coincidentally, in 100% of cases, that decision favors the buyer.

You are absolutely right. I had a huge dispute with eBay/PayPal and they refused to take reciept of signed letters from my postman and his supervisor stating they DID NOT deliver an item to me. It was a CLEAR scam, from a seller who had 0 feedback (my fault for jumping on that deal, I admit). But they SIDED with the SELLER, despite being an OBVIOUS fraud after I collected evidence. So no, they don't 100% side with the buyer. I have TWO experiences of being screwed as a buyer. It amazes me, but I think I must be really unlucky.

[CP Goerz]

Did you buy the lens(Pinkham and Smith) on a camera(Bookend Wisner) from South Korea/China/Russia for $495? with free shipping and a complimentary $200 gift certificate from Nigeria? ;-)

[Corran]

No, I'm not stupid. It was a BIN of $200 for a Nikon flash with a picture and simple description. The only indication of foul play was 0 feedbacks.

The scam was that the seller sent a postcard with delivery confirmation to a local address they found on mapquest. So according to the tracking number the item was delivered, to my town. But USPS does not specify an exact address for simple delivery confirmation with no insurance. I had no recourse except written statements, which Paypal would not accept.

[CP Goerz]

Thats a new scam to me, how sneaky that they would use the post office to 'show delivery' and void any repercussions, I think the only way around that is to insist on signature confirmation or insured delivery as each are signed for.

[Corran]

Exactly. Apparently there is a small ring of criminals doing this somewhere in southern California. I traced them and found a phone number that went to a supposed mortgaging refinancing company, which upon further investigation was also involved in various scams. So they seem to be a diverse bunch of scammers, lending to small-time grifts that fly under the radar of PayPal, etc. I got into contact with another person scammed by them on eBay for a ~$200 item in the same way, who helped me figure out what was going on.

So if you see a great deal on an item for around $249.99 (the max that doesn't need signature confirmation or something) by a seller with 0 feedback, don't buy it.

[Roger Cole]

Interesting. I should have returned my Perfection 3200 scanner and if I had realized I could have made the seller pay shipping, I would have. Was advertised with photos including the film holders. Got just the scanner, no manuals, CDs or film holders. The only part I cared about was the film holders. Contacted the seller who admitted they just copied the description (which also clearly SAID the film holders were included) from Epson's description, they didn't have the holders, and would I like to return it? I knew I could return it but should have looked into the shipping bit. I didn't pay much for the scanner (forget now) shipping one way was at least half the price and I figured I'd have to pay shipping back and I'd just get a better scanning holder(s) anyway. So far I've not bought the BS holders.

[Jody_S]

No, I'm not stupid. It was a BIN of $200 for a Nikon flash with a picture and simple description. The only indication of foul play was 0 feedbacks.

The scam was that the seller sent a postcard with delivery confirmation to a local address they found on mapquest. So according to the tracking number the item was delivered, to my town. But USPS does not specify an exact address for simple delivery confirmation with no insurance. I had no recourse except written statements, which Paypal would not accept.

They don't look at the POD. They require sellers to enter the tracking number after the item is shipped, and when the USPS's electronic tracking reports it as delivered they accept that as fact. If they looked at postal receipts and signatures, they would get info like 'weight' and they would know that this is a scam. Sounds like someone has figured out how they operate, and found a loophole.

[Corran]

Yes, but they refused to accept any evidence like that. It was ridiculous. I had a continuous back-and-forth for over 6 months with Paypal and eBay about it before I finally conceded defeat.

[Old-N-Feeble]

The PO will have record of type of package, its weight, and the postage paid.

[Corran]

It doesn't matter what the PO has, PayPal/eBay would NOT accept any written evidence. Furthermore, I believe that the scammers had found some loophole that they in fact did NOT have weight or other details.

Basically, I went BEYOND due diligence to get this resolved and I hit a wall at every turn but it was impossible. Please don't tell me that the PO had this or that, I did countless hours of research, inquisitions, and calls back and forth to a dozen different places. The loophole was simply there, and PayPal was unwilling to meet me halfway regarding my written statements*. I lost more money in time/stress in the long run!

*They said that they WOULD NOT accept any *.pdf or *.doc file over email to show them my written statements, due to "risk of viruses or trojans", nor did they take fax. This was the kicker that pissed me off.

[Old-N-Feeble]

Yeah... ePay and PayPay still suck... probably always will.

[Sean Galbraith]

Absolutely.


Do not offer refunds period.

[RichardSperry]

but can you say "no refunds" and then offer one at your discretion? That could be a way around a period longer than you're comfortable with. The scenario you describe is another possible problem.

Yup. That's the way to do it.

You filter out more whiner bidders that way.

[Kuzano]

The Spelling and Grammar police have spoken. I knew they were here somewhere. The just pop up out of nowhere.....

Actually "baited breath" may be more correct in this instance, as when these things happen, it just makes you want to eat a handfull of worms.

I do not, and I teach my students to never offer a return policy. You may choose NOT to buy from me by not having one, but it seems to me that's surely your problem. Frankly, I think that two reasonable people, a buyer and a seller, will work out issues without having a stated return policy. I have great feedback at 100% and if that does not imply that I take care of my buyers, the person is probably not someone I want to do business with anyway.

If you don't want to raise your incidence of returns, simply do not open the door to that by having a stated return policy. It has never hurt my sales, or my buying and while I've had a few bumps in my transaction, every one has been worked out to happy happy. No RETURN POLICY here. Why involve eBay in that aspect of your business.

In the 7-8 years I have been selling/buying film camera's on eBay, and a lot of large format equipment, I have bought back a total of three items to appease a customer. No harsh words ever. I did to a partial refund on one deal, and I will tell you as an afterthought on that one, I will never do another partial refund. There are unscrupulous people who will buy from you and then dig you for a partial refund. The way I have stopped that, after that one partial refund, is to insist I will only back out the transaction and do a full refund.

Surprising how that stance "outs" the scammers.

eBay instructor Community Ed... community college level.

[Dan Fromm]

Kuzano, +1 on no refund policy and no partial refunds.

When I was selling actively I didn't state a refund policy. I sold a character a 600/9 Apo Ronar. After the lens was delivered (track all shipments!), the person sent me a very angry e-mail about it, insisted that it was filthy inside (not!) and that it wouldn't come clean (not!). I received his blast, seethed for a few hours, and then told him that the lens has passed pre-listing and pre-shipment inspections and that the cells didn't simply unscrew, set screws had to be removed first. If he would send it back by my selected shipping method, after I received in it the condition I'd shipped it in (clean, together and with the serial number of the lens I'd shipped) I'd refund purchase price and shipping both ways. A couple of days later I got a polite note to the effect that he'd bought a lot of process lenses that week and had confused mine with another. He even left + feedback.

And back then I sold a 55/8 Repro Claron in barrel to Tim Sharkey. He insisted it had fungus. I gave him the same response, he came back with a request for a partial refund. No, send the lens back for full reimbursement. He didn't, left + feedback and later sold the lens (remember, I keep serial numbers) as perfect. You're right, bluffs must be called.

[CP Goerz]

Sadly though there is no ''no return policy' on ebay as I have found out. If you write one single word about an item you are then(in ebay's eyes) stating its condition/appearance/whatever and a buyer can then use anything you have said to get off the hook and return the item because it is 'not as described'. Also remember that ebay will make a judgement based on the description/images/buyers claim and any e mails that may have transpired.


You may have seen a rise in sellers who give nothing as a description, this is the reason why.

[Jody_S]

ebay will make a judgement based on the description/images/buyers claim and any e mails that may have transpired.


Ebay might actually read some of the email exchange between buyer and seller before making a decision. My last problem buyer was banned after I pointed out in an email exchange that he had left me negative feedback saying the item never came, and then in private emails asked for a partial refund saying (with pictures!) that the item wasn't as-described. A quick review of his feedback left to others shows he was running quite a scam. But it still took 2 months to get him banned and get the -ve removed.

[Brian Ellis]

There's a large format selling site on photo.net. I've used it several times as a seller and had good luck with it. No fees, no commissions, no special rules that I recall. The only downside I recall (haven't used it in a while) is that I don't think there's a feedback system so it's best used as a seller. I haven't been doing much selling lately but when I did I always listed there (and here if LF) before using ebay. I consider ebay a last resort. Fred Miranda also has a very active B/S forum but there's an annual fee to use it and it's geared almost entirely to digital.

[Phong]

There's used to be a neighbor-to-neighbor feedback service on photo.net.
Don't know if it's still there.




There's a large format selling site on photo.net. I've used it several times as a seller and had good luck with it. No fees, no commissions, no special rules that I recall. The only downside I recall (haven't used it in a while) is that I don't think there's a feedback system so it's best used as a seller. I haven't been doing much selling lately but when I did I always listed there (and here if LF) before using ebay. I consider ebay a last resort. Fred Miranda also has a very active B/S forum but there's an annual fee to use it and it's geared almost entirely to digital.

[DonJ]

CP,

Just to be clear, each of these names represents a problematic transaction in the last 6 months?

It appears to be a cumulative list. Still, that's a boatload of problems for one person to have. I have a few hundred sales, and my BBL has four names on it.

[Dan Fromm]

Interesting list, Andrew's. If you compare his 15 oct 2012 (post #53) with his 24 April 2013 list (post #58), you'll see that I'm not in the older one, am in the newer one. Look for danfromm.

What's especially interesting about it is that I've never ever bought anything from him. I have questioned his coverage claims in public and in private. I think its time to put him on my list of liars.

[Brian Ellis]

There's used to be a neighbor-to-neighbor feedback service on photo.net.
Don't know if it's still there.

They don't call it that any more but Community Tab > Member Recommendations gets you to something like that.

[DonJ]

Interesting list, Andrew's. If you compare his 15 oct 2012 (post #53) with his 24 April 2013 list (post #58), you'll see that I'm not in the older one, am in the newer one. Look for danfromm.

What's especially interesting about it is that I've never ever bought anything from him. I have questioned his coverage claims in public and in private. I think its time to put him on my list of liars.

That's the problem with sharing "blocked" lists: you never know if the blocker or the blockee is the one you should avoid.

[goamules]

A lot of us block people on ebay as a risk avoidance measure, not because we've had personal problems with them or even ever had bids. It's about avoiding bidders that seem to excessively give bad feedback, leave flaming, confused sounding feedback, or leave feedback about a 50 year old, $4 filter "was dirty", "smelled like smoke", etc. I do not want people like that bidding on my items, and taking chances with their behavior. It's the only method Ebay gives us now to have a meaningful "good buyer" feedback. I block them based on my own research.

[DonJ]

You block them based on your own research.

I wonder how many people who "borrowed" this list actually did their own research before cutting and pasting all of the names into their own BBL? When a 12-year LFF member shows up on that list for no apparent reason, it should raise a red flag for other members, but most importantly for the owners of this site.

BTW, your personal BBL isn't the only tool eBay gives you. In fact, considering how many eBay members there are, it's probably the least useful tool available.

[Dan Fromm]

A lot of us block people on ebay as a risk avoidance measure, not because we've had personal problems with them or even ever had bids. It's about avoiding bidders that seem to excessively give bad feedback, leave flaming, confused sounding feedback, or leave feedback about a 50 year old, $4 filter "was dirty", "smelled like smoke", etc. I do not want people like that bidding on my items, and taking chances with their behavior. It's the only method Ebay gives us now to have a meaningful "good buyer" feedback. You block them based on your own research.

Garrett, don't speculate about what I might do or have done, read the feedback I've left. You're defending an ....

[goamules]

Not to worry Dan, I was not talking about you. Just the general philosophy I follow. I was only commenting on the general "why would someone block bidders" implied question. I didn't even read the posts about anyone in particular. I changed my post from "you..." (meaning "someone") to "I"....

To Moose, what other tools can a seller use to avoid bad buyers? Ebay makes it VERY hard to avoid ANY sales. The one criteria they let you set, is is to automatically block someone with EXTREMELY bad feedback. All others it does not filter. Even the very bad, quite bad, unbelievably bad. I don't use anyone elses list either, just my own research based.

[DonJ]

To Moose, what other tools can a seller use to avoid bad buyers? Ebay makes it VERY hard to avoid ANY sales. The one criteria they let you set, is is to automatically block someone with EXTREMELY bad feedback. All others it does not filter. Even the very bad, quite bad, unbelievably bad. I don't use anyone elses list either, just my own research based.

Well, you first have to realize that there is no such thing as an eBay buyer with bad feedback; not very bad, not unbelievably bad, not even kind of bad. Five years ago, eBay eliminated the option for a seller to leave negative feedback for a buyer. So, unless the person buys and sells on the same account, their feedback will be 100% positive. That old option to block buyers with an overall negative score was worthless even before the change.

eBay gave sellers a number of ways to block buyers who might cause problems. You can:


block buyers with more than one unpaid item in the past 12 months
block buyers who don't have a PayPal account (very effective against the "Nigerian scammers")
block buyers from countries you don't ship to
limit the # of your items a buyer can bid on or buy in a given period (prevents someone from "carpet-bombing" your listings)
force immediate payment for a Fixed Price listing or when the Buy It Now option is used on an auction; the listing doesn't close until payment is actually made


I sense that I've forgotten one, but I don't have access to eBay at the moment to check my buyer preferences setup.

They don't catch the buyer who leaves inappropriate feedback, so that's what the BBL is useful for. But those folks are a lot less common than the non-payers, etc.

[Dan Fromm]

Garrett, I just checked. Look here: http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?BuyerBlockPreferences

The blocking criteria are a bit broader and more flexible than you think. Hard to find, though. Account, site preferences, buyer requirements, edit.

FWIW, I block people who've won my items and not paid. But then, I've never ever got bad feedback from a buyer.

[DonJ]

This thread appears to have become shorter.

[rdenney]

Folks,

We got a complaint about the lists of buyers. This seems to us a violation of the forum guidelines, that say:

"To have a healthy and informative forum, it's essential that participants maintain a respectful and professional decorum. Name calling, personal attacks, character assassination, coarse or inappropriate language, or enticing/baiting others to violate forum guidelines will not be tolerated here."

Please don't accuse long lists of people of being bad ebay buyers by posting their ebay names here.

Rick "thanks" Denney

[rdenney]

This thread appears to have become shorter.

This was a mistake on my part. I was trying to remove some posts using Tapatalk, and managed to punch the wrong button, sending them into the ether instead of leaving a deletion notice. Sorry about that. The remaining lists have been deleted the more correct way.

Rick "fat-fingered on an iphone" Denney

[Rick A]

Just now reading this thread, I have to chime in. I recently purchased two items from the evil place, some Ilford paper that turned out fogged. The seller gave me a total refund including my shipping, which I never expected(the shipping fee). The second was a lens set for my mamiya TLR. The seller didnt report the shutter as inaccurate, just the dust on the lens. I contacted him as to repairing or return, his policy was return, minus the shipping. I would have had as much in shipping(both directions) as I have in the lens, I opted to keep the lens and have it repaired at my expense. It seems the new rule may be 14 days as thats the time I was given to decide if I spent my money well, I could be wrong though.

[DonJ]

Just now reading this thread, I have to chime in. I recently purchased two items from the evil place, some Ilford paper that turned out fogged. The seller gave me a total refund including my shipping, which I never expected(the shipping fee). The second was a lens set for my mamiya TLR. The seller didnt report the shutter as inaccurate, just the dust on the lens. I contacted him as to repairing or return, his policy was return, minus the shipping. I would have had as much in shipping(both directions) as I have in the lens, I opted to keep the lens and have it repaired at my expense. It seems the new rule may be 14 days as thats the time I was given to decide if I spent my money well, I could be wrong though.

Sellers are "encouraged" to offer a 14-day, no question asked, return policy, but you have 45 days to file a "Not as described" complaint with eBay or PayPal. If they rule in your favor, you pay return shipping, but the full amount you paid for the item (price AND shipping) is refunded.

[CP Goerz]

'I think its time to put him on my list of liars.' name calling Dan? Careful, you may have that post deleted, but I doubt it. Dan, you have accused me of a number of things and most recently 'liar'. I'd rather not deal with someone like that, I don't think too many people here would either. The fact that your name didn't appear on my list a few months ago is because I thought you were already on it, thank you for showing up in my inbox so I could verify and address the situation. You don't need to buy something from me to get on the list, you just need to be...well, I'll let you fill an appropriate adjective :-)



The list I made is a cumulative list of various folks I've had problems with or fully expect to have problems with, this list includes bidders other sellers I know have had problems with, we 'share' lists. It has been amassed throughout the decades and is written by scholars on vellum and kept in a locked box deep in the archives of a well known library. Should any of the select group of sellers wish to peruse the contents they are allowed free reign to do so or failing that they can drop me an E mail for the latest updates.


Ebay allows bidders to leave a negative feedback publicly and as you all know the thing that potential buyers look at is the negative and ignore the several hundred positive feedbacks. In order for me to protect my reputation I'd rather NOT have bids from people who may give me trouble or have given a few other sellers I know trouble. If an item sells for less because of it, too bad, but at least I'll have fewer headaches and may live three days longer.



I am not the sole and only seller on Ebay, there are thousands if not millions at this point, if you feel that my business practices are unfair then I heartily encourage you to bid elsewhere, its what I would do.




If any of you feel personally affronted by your inclusion don't be, as they say in certain organizations...its just business.

[Dan Fromm]

Andrew, I don't know how big a skunk you are. You don't know how big a skunk I am. Are you sure you want to get into a pissing match?

[rdenney]

Pissing matches are not appropriate here.

Please follow the guidelines, which state:


Your Responsibilities - By accessing this site, you agree:

-to keep your posts on-topic and civil, and
-not to abuse other site users - including posting offensive comments (like personal attacks or insulting language), sending them threats, ...or baiting/enticing them to violate forum guidelines.

I do not think that publicly naming a person as a trouble-buyer on ebay, without actually having documented experience to back it up, fits this guideline. Thus, it, and repeated retaliations by those so named, are not appropriate here. But you can't expect to name someone with whom you've had no experience and not expect a response--that is also baiting.

If you want to create such a list and offer it by email, it does not violate forum guidelines to say so. You've done that.

Rick "let it go" Denney

[CP Goerz]

Perhaps 'bad bidder' etc was an unfair term of me to use, let me just say 'buyers/potential buyers on a blocked list'. The list spans over a decade and includes many many categories, not just LF gear. The names are ebay handles not 'actual' names so there is certainly a few degrees of anonymity, unless of course someone uses their real name as an ebay handle that is.



The only protection I can give myself is to either block bidders who may cause trouble or 'have' caused trouble in a past transaction, I just don't want to deal with them. If someone is insulting/rude in an e mail before a transaction has begun you can be quite sure things will not improve with age, those are the easy ones to deal with, its after the fact and they are the high bidder that the fun really starts. I don't need to be punched on the nose to know that it hurts, thats why I now duck.




Letting go..........letting go.........letting go............its gone.

[ImSoNegative]

I prefer to buy here because the folks that sell on here know what they are selling, I don't think I have ever seen an ad here on LF forum that says "don't know much about this stuff so selling as is" also what I like about the forum is that the folks selling don't seem to be selling to make a shit load of money but more to help one another out and usually either breaking even or losing a little, about the only thing I buy on the auction site is step up rings

[DonJ]

I don't understand the big deal. I expect a return policy whenever I buy something whether it be from a local store, a Target or Wallymart or an ebay seller. A return policy tells me the seller is confident in what they are selling and they will stand behind it.

Most eBay sellers are nothing like "Wallymart", and shouldn't be expected to offer the same level of service. There's a big difference between standing behind what you sell (which every eBay seller should do) and accepting a return because the buyer found another one for a better price, or they bounced the alimony check, or just decided they really didn't want it after all. "Buyer's remorse" is and should remain the buyer's problem.

[marfa boomboom tx]

too bad that so much time is spent on commerce, here and there....
instead:

Time will say nothing but I told you so,
Time only knows the price we have to pay,
If I could tell you I would let you know.

(oct 1944. dead poet. only his books visit marfa)